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The Lord's Prayer

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Roy Monis:
Hi! Everyone and God bless you all.

Just a passing thought. I was reading Ray's inspired teaching on the soul searching last words of Jesus Christ before He finally gave up the Spirit.

Could Jesus' dying prayer for all humanity also carry another message to His chosen children in the form of an example and reminder of His earlier teaching on "How to pray"? The teaching being based on two very important verses;

“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions." (Matt.6:14,15).

Not that He Personally had anything to be forgiven for by His Father but purely as a reminder and example for us.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

God bless.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy.

winner08:
For sure, Jesus also gave us several other comands as to how we should live life with our fellow man. which He also taught by example.
                                 

                                                    Darren

ericsteven:
Hi Roy,

There is actually some question as to whether this verse is truly scriptural.  It is on Professor Tischendorf’s list of spurious passages according to his notes on the early Sinaitic and Vatican Manuscripts.  This list can be found on the bibletruths.com forum at this link:  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6638.0.html

There is evidence within scripture that repentance must come first before forgiveness can or should be given.

2 Chronicles 7:14     If My people, which are called by My Name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear
                            from Heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

1 John 1:9              If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Psalm 86:5              For Thou, LORD, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon Thee.

Jeremiah 36:3         It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may
                           forgive their iniquity and their sin.

Also in Jeremiah 18, we have Jeremiah asking God not to forgive Israel for the evil that they have done.

Jeremiah 18:23       Yet, LORD, thou knowest all their counsel against me to slay [me]: forgive not their iniquity, neither blot out their
                           sin from thy sight, but let them be overthrown before thee; deal [thus] with them in the time of thine anger.

I doubt this is a statement usually attributed as a prophecy of our Savior [and I’m not saying it absolutely is], but God definitely knew all the counsel of the Pharisees and Romans to slay Christ.  And it wasn’t as if Jeremiah here is asking something contrary to how God acts, because we read in the very next chapter of all the evil that He brings upon His people for disobeying Him. 

Jeremiah 19:3         …Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.

And there could be an argument made that the physical Jewish people as a whole to this day have experienced nothing but God’s anger ever since the death of our Lord, i.e. the destruction of Jerusalem, the many Jewish holocausts throughout the ages culminating in the attempted Jewish genocide by the Nazis, etc…

So the very words, 'Forgive them for they know not what they do' could be seen as in direct contradiction to the sum of scripture.

Here is what one commentator I’ve read had to say regarding Luke 23:34:

Luke 23:34 -- Some copyist added these words with the evident thought of revealing the Master's benevolence toward his enemies, but actually they are not in harmony with the known facts. Whatever Jesus requested of the Heavenly Father would be granted. But those who crucified him were not forgiven. It was a national sin for which they have suffered severely.

I could be completely wrong, [and I am more often than not :-\] but if nothing else, further study is needed on this subject.  We are constantly learning and growing, and perhaps Ray will provide further insight into this in an upcoming paper or conference. 

Hope this at least gives you something to think about and perhaps spur you on to more studying of His Word.

God bless,

Eric

Deborah-Leigh:
Beautiful Scriptures Eric!

I think what Jesus means is "Get over everyone else's sins! "  Or "Rise above everyone else's imperfections and just get past looking at everyone else's flaws. "  He did say "Turn the other cheek."  I think He meant look at things from another side not always your side. See things in perspective. You too are flawed, weak, fail and liable to temptations.

Ref to the transcript and audio by Ray on REPENTENCE gives exceptional insights to this statement made by Jesus to cast the beam out of your eye made to His very own Disciples! :o

I personally love what Jesus says here. John 20 : 23 Whosoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them;  UNTO THEM, and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained. (NO UNTO THEM for sins retained! So who would be the retainer? Huh? Who would be the vessel that retains the sins but who so ever RETAINS THEM! )  Vessel of honour and Mercy and Pardon and Peace and vessels of dishonor , wrath, and vengeance and etc etc....

Just how I see it...

Peace to you

Arc.

Roy Monis:
Hi! Eric

Thanks for your information, I was quite unaware of that list. The NASV, which is the more updated and accurate of the two translations also includes what is reckoned by Professor Tischendorf’s list to be spurious passages.

If we are to believe Professor Tischendorf’s list of spurious passages, then this would mean that Ray is wrong to term this passage as the true Lord's Prayer for the forgiveness of the whole world's sins if the words weren't actually uttered?

I don't understand Arcturus' reference to repentance first, this was unconditional forgiveness because no one present showed the slightest bit of remorse other than those closest to Him. Darren has got the gist of what I'm on about. I asked if this was intended as a reminder and example which is conditional on repentance first by the offending party, but equally binding on the offended party toforgive or they would not be forgiven by the Father.

I simply love this passage and would certainly go along with Ray and not Professor Tischendorf’s. In the eyes of the Lord human wisdom is but foolishness and it won't be the first time that these human wise men will be proved wrong.

Thank you Eric and God bless you brother.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy.

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