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Author Topic: Ray's New Bible Study for May  (Read 2996 times)

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Akira329

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Ray's New Bible Study for May
« on: May 05, 2008, 05:06:28 PM »

This was a very hard one for me.
I'm still not sure about one thing and that is Numbers 23:19
Which states:
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

I understand that the word repent here does not mean what it means in greek but the issue is that it still says that God is not a man that he should repent. Whether it means sorrow or pity God does not do these things because he is not a man.
The verse also says why, because he will do the things he says and those things will be good!!

So.........if Genesis 6:7 says that God felt pity in his heart why does Numbers 23:19 say different.
Ray said it was a contradiction but he never addressed it in the audio.
Can some one help my understanding?? Did I miss something?? Please help my head hurts over this one!LOL

Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
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"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
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Akira329

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Re: Ray's New Bible Study for May
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2008, 05:12:26 PM »

I guess I should also say that repent in Numbers 23:19 is the same Hebrew word in Genesis 6:7
So how can both be true???

My brain is mush over this one
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Ray's New Bible Study for May
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2008, 05:57:13 PM »

God is not a God that He should regret or have any regrets because God sees the end from the beginning and in the end He shall wipe away all tears and He shall restore all things to Himself and He shall swallow up death in victory. In between there are judgments and God is not a God that can be manipulated or changed. God will have not regrets because God is God and He is Good, Wise, Powerful and Love.

Hope this helps.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

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Akira329

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Re: Ray's New Bible Study for May
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2008, 06:39:53 PM »

Hey Arcturus,
It didn't really help me. sorry :-\

I understand that God is all these things as you have said but Numbers 23:19 is still there
I understand that the word repent here in these verses does not mean regret.
But my conflict is that it does say that God does not repent and the others say he does.
Emphasize that I know repent does not mean regret or changed his mind.

repent as defined in strong's:
A primitive root; properly to sigh, that is, breathe strongly; by implication to be sorry, that is, (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself): - comfort (self), ease [one’s self], repent (-er, -ing, self).
This is what I understood from ray's teaching but it would seem he didn't address the contradiction(or apparent one).

The verse still says he doesn't feel the way men feel, but Genesis 6:7 shows he does have these types of feelings in his heart.
Again not regret
ahh I really want to understand this.................
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

Kat

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Re: Ray's New Bible Study for May
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2008, 07:39:51 PM »


Hi Antaiwan,

Gen 6:5 Then Yahweh saw that great, was the wickedness of man in the earth, and that, every purpose of the devices of His heart, was only wicked all the day;
v. 6 and it grieved Yahweh, that He had made man in the earth,—and He took sorrow unto His heart. (Rotherham)

God is lamenting over what He sees happening, even though He knew it would happen and He does not regret it, because this is how God's plan was suppose to go.  God is full of love for His creation and He does not enjoy watching the process that is being worked out here.
Jesus one time spoke how He would like to gather up all of Jerusalem and protect them like a mother hen, and yes He knew that was not God's plan.

Mat 23:37 Jerusalem! Jerusalem! that slayeth the prophets, and stoneth them that have been sent unto her,—how often, would I have gathered thy children, like as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,—and ye would not!

Then in verse 7 God is now saying what must happen as part of His plan.

Gen 6:7 And Yahweh said—I must wipe off man whom I created from off the face of the ground, from man unto beast unto creeping thing, and unto the bird of the heavens,—for I am grieved that I made them.

Sometimes I go to a movie and I know it's a story about something terrible that has happened and will be sad, even thought I know what is suppose to happen, I still am overcome with sadness and tears when I watch it happen.
God does not enjoy seeing all this evil and suffering of mankind here on earth, but His plan calls for it and the ultimate good it will bring.

Eze 33:11  Say to them: "As I live,' says the Lord GOD, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'


Num 23:19 GOD is, not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of Adam, that He should repent,—Hath, he, said, and will not perform? Yea spoken, and will not make it stand fast?

In this verse it says "God is not a man," and then it shows one way He is not like man "that He should lie."  And it continues by saying "Nor a son of Adam," and then it says how "that He should repent."  The word "repent" is directed towards a particular thing "a son of Adam," that's all of mankind, that have sinned and are in need of repentance.  But God has no need to repent, like mankind!  
So this is just giving reference to ways God is not like a man.

Rom 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Hope this helps  :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Akira329

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Re: Ray's New Bible Study for May
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2008, 08:21:53 PM »

I guess my question should be:
Was Strong wrong in defining the word repent in Numbers23:19 and various other places??
Why use the same word as in genesis 6:7??
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

Kat

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Re: Ray's New Bible Study for May
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2008, 09:14:32 PM »


Hi Antaiwan,

Here is how this words repent - nâcham H5162 is used in the KJV.

Total KJV Occurrences: 109; comfort, 34; comforted, 20; repent, 19; repented, 17; comforters, 5; comforter, 3; comforteth, 3; repenteth, 3; comfortedst, 1; ease, 1; receive, 1; repentest, 1; repenting, 1

The word has many different meaning that the translators could apply when translating the Scriptures.  The word can mean different things in different verses according to the context, that's why it has all the definitions; to sigh, breathe strongly; to be sorry, to pity, console or rue; or to avenge: - comfort, ease, repent.  Here are a few examples of ways it is used in the Scripture, just bare in mind that the original manuscripts of the inspired Scripture do not contradict.

Psa 23:4  Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort (nacham 5162) me.

Job 16:2  I have heard many such things: miserable comforters (nacham 5162) are ye all.

Isa 66:13  As one whom his mother comforteth (nacham 5162), so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

Isa 57:6  Among the smooth stones of the stream is thy portion; they, they are thy lot: even to them hast thou poured a drink offering, thou hast offered a meat offering. Should I receive comfort (nacham 51062) in these?

Psa 90:13  Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent (nacham 51062) thee concerning thy servants.

Jer 15:6  Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting (nacham 51062).

Psa 135:14  For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent (nacham 51062) himself concerning his servants.

Jer 26:13  Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent (nacham 51062) him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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hillsbororiver

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Re: Ray's New Bible Study for May
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2008, 09:34:44 PM »


I understand that God is all these things as you have said but Numbers 23:19 is still there
I understand that the word repent here in these verses does not mean regret.
But my conflict is that it does say that God does not repent and the others say he does.
Emphasize that I know repent does not mean regret or changed his mind.

repent as defined in strong's:
A primitive root; properly to sigh, that is, breathe strongly; by implication to be sorry, that is, (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself): - comfort (self), ease [one’s self], repent (-er, -ing, self).
This is what I understood from ray's teaching but it would seem he didn't address the contradiction(or apparent one).

The verse still says he doesn't feel the way men feel, but Genesis 6:7 shows he does have these types of feelings in his heart.
Again not regret
ahh I really want to understand this.................


Hi Antaiwan,

We all get into these situations where the scriptures seem to puzzle and frustrate, those were very good answers from Arcturus and Kat but I am going to add a little bit to them. We must remember that Strong's although a very good tool to use with esword does not always nail the definitions down perfectly, as a matter of fact at times those definitions are somewhat incomplete. Look at what Kat wrote previously quoting from Rotherham's;



Gen 6:5 Then Yahweh saw that great, was the wickedness of man in the earth, and that, every purpose of the devices of His heart, was only wicked all the day;
v. 6 and it grieved Yahweh, that He had made man in the earth, and He took sorrow unto His heart. (Rotherham)

God is lamenting over what He sees happening, even though He knew it would happen and He does not regret it, because this is how God's plan was suppose to go.  God is full of love for His creation and He does not enjoy watching the process that is being worked out here.

Amen Kat!


It appears that the Hebrew word nacham has many nuances to it, I am certain the same nuance is not applicable to both Genesis 6:7 & Numbers 23:19.

Getting back to Numbers 23:19 and lets replace the word repent with rue or rueful (one of Strongs listed definitions you listed).


Definition of rue/rueful

rueful; 1  contrite, remorseful, rueful, ruthful, sorry. To feel regret, remorse, or sorrow for.

Num 23:19  God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should be remorseful/contrite hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Why would God be remorseful and contrite when His plan is working perfectly? He may empathize even sympathize with our suffering along the way but He knows what needs to be done in creating perfect Sons and Daughters.

Let me attempt an analogy here;

A certain man takes his young daughter to the Dentist after she chipped her tooth, as she is seated and takes in all the strange tools and devices and sees the Dentist holding a big needle in his hand she begins to cry. Does this man feel remorse, contrition or regret for bringing her to the Dentist or is it more like he is grieving for her pain and suffering even as he knows beyond a shadow of a doubt he is doing the right thing?


His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


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winner08

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Re: Ray's New Bible Study for May
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2008, 10:09:24 PM »

 I asked the question does,God have emotions? I didn't get any replies. I figured that it was a dumb question and nobody had the time to give me any answers. Anyway this post answered some of those question on emotions. Thanks everyone. God does work in mysteries ways.


                                              Thanks

                                             Darren
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Ray's New Bible Study for May
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2008, 10:32:08 PM »

I asked the question does,God have emotions? I didn't get any replies. I figured that it was a dumb question and nobody had the time to give me any answers. Anyway this post answered some of those question on emotions. Thanks everyone. God does work in mysteries ways.


                                              Thanks

                                             Darren

Hi Darren,

I am sorry your question was not responded to, some days I have a real difficult time catching up with many of the posts.


Job 4:17  Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Psa 86:15  But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.

Mic 7:18  Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger forever, because he delighteth in mercy.

You know one of the apostles requested of Jesus to show him the Father, here was His reply;

 
Joh 14:8  Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
 
Joh 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
 
Joh 14:10  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
 
His Peace to you,

Joe
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Akira329

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Re: Ray's New Bible Study for May
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2008, 12:48:58 AM »

I hope I didn't make it seem that Arcturus and Kat's answers were insufficient
I believe they gave good answers to the issue that these verses would raise.
I thank you all for the help!! ;D
The scripture Kat gave from Rotherham's was a good example of the use of the word.
I used esword to find the definition but esword doesn't come with this version of the bible.

I later figured from the last two questions from Numbers 23:19 that those two questions defined
what repent meant in this instance. (Only after reading it over and over)
Is this the proper way to determine its use in the Old Testament??

hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Thank you guys for helping my understanding!!
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

carol v

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Re: Ray's New Bible Study for May
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2008, 09:10:40 PM »

Hey Akira,

If you are interested in Rotherham's for esword, PM me and I'll tell you where you can get it...or I'll just email to ya if ya want.

Carol
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