Was the Apocrypha included in the original KJV meant to be canonical?

[Paul]

The 1611 version of the KJV references verses from the Apocrypha in the canonical books...

[mharrell08]

Paul this may help with your question. I know it is not the shortest commentary, but it being thorough really covers all about the Bible.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html



Marques

[David]

While its clear that the Apocryphal books are not inspired scripture, they are interesting from a historic perspective and shed light on ancient Jewish traditions etc. In particular there are extensive passages in the book of Tobit that shed much light on Jewish marriage which the canonical scriptures do not. The accounts in the book of Tobit about the marriage of Tobias and Sarah bare out the secular historic record on how ancient Jewish marriages were arranged and contracted.

[Martinez]

What about the gospel of Thomas, does anyone know anything about that?

[winner08]

In the gnostic gospels the do have the gospel of Thomas. If your interested.They found these text in Egypt. They were writings from the 2nd and 3rd centuries. But the question is, are they believable. If anything they're interesting.


                                        Darren

[David]

What about the gospel of Thomas, does anyone know anything about that?

I have some books that contain just about all the so called "secret" and "hidden" gospels that have been restored, translated and published so far. There are still some findings that are being authenticated and painstakingly restored, one of particular interest is the so called "Gospel of the Nazarene", reported to possibly be written by Christ himself, although many experts are saying that this assertion is totally spurious, that any number of people could have been titled "A Nazarene".
Of the ones that have been published I have found nothing in them that tell us anything we don't already have in the Canonical Gospels. The Gospel of Thomas, if indeed it is genuine because many say it isn't, is simply a series of anecdotal sayings from Jesus Christ, many of which are found in the four Gospels in the Bible, the odd few that are not are both unrevealing and pretty pointless.

[Martinez]

Thanks guys, I was just curious that's all.

Someone on another forum posted a link to a web page that claimed that the original gospels that were saved from being altered (or something like that) were given to some Buddist monks somewhere to keep safe from those who wouldn't want the true gospels to be known.

It was totally see through. according to them, Christ had said stuff about not eating meat or harming any living things.

Hmmm, Buddism anyone?

[chav]

Hi

what about the book of Enoch that gets quoted in Jude ?

It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, Jude 1:14


why does this appear in the  scriptures ?

Dave UK

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Dave

The Word of God as in the Jude Scripture does not say that Enoch wrote a book. It says he prophesied.

We have many accounts of other characters in the Bible and I do not think that this means that they wrote a book that has not yet been discovered somewhere. But leave it up to the imaginative and they will sure come out with one! Oh, the book of Judas Iscariot has already appeared somewhere has it not? 

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Roy Monis]

Dear Martinez.

Type "Gospel of Thomas" into Google and you'll find out, the whole lot will pop up. It is quite interesting to say the least whether it is edifying or not is a matter of opinion.

God bless.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy

[David]

I read an article about the so called lost book of Enoch a while back. As far as Jewish scholars can find out, the book did not exist before 200 BC, which would mean if it was an account of Enoch's prophesies, then it was handed down by aural tradition for almost 2000 years. Although I have never read it myself, I know of people that have and they say its mostly plagiarized from Is, Jer and Ez.

[chav]

Hi

Hi

what about the book of Enoch that gets quoted in Jude ?

It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, Jude 1:14


why does this appear in the  scriptures ?

What are Paul's sources for the above quotation as well as the preceeding verses concerning Jannes and Jambres and the dispute regarding Mose's body? If they are cited couldn't it be argued that they could be considered scripture? Are they even found in the Apocrypha ?

cheers
Dave UK

[Akira329]

Verses like this make me weary:
Simon Peter said to them: Let Mary go forth from among us, for women are not worthy of the life. Jesus said: Behold, I shall lead her, that I may make her male, in order that she also may become a living spirit like you males. For every woman who makes herself male shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Thats from the Gospel of Thomas
It obviously contradicts this verse:
2Co 6:18  And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

[Roy Monis]

What about the gospel of Thomas, does anyone know anything about that?

I have some books that contain just about all the so called "secret" and "hidden" gospels that have been restored, translated and published so far. There are still some findings that are being authenticated and painstakingly restored, one of particular interest is the so called "Gospel of the Nazarene", reported to possibly be written by Christ himself, although many experts are saying that this assertion is totally spurious, that any number of people could have been titled "A Nazarene".
Of the ones that have been published I have found nothing in them that tell us anything we don't already have in the Canonical Gospels. The Gospel of Thomas, if indeed it is genuine because many say it isn't, is simply a series of anecdotal sayings from Jesus Christ, many of which are found in the four Gospels in the Bible, the odd few that are not are both unrevealing and pretty pointless.

Hi! David

I agree I have downloaded and read the Gospel of Thomas and, as you say, there is nothing other than quotes from various sayings of Jesus. More interesting however are the two Books of Esdras who appears to be the Ezra we are more familiar with, but his prophesies are more in keeping with 32 AD than 400BC. What do you think. Here is the link if you haven't already got it; http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hti.umich.edu%2Fk%2Fkjv%2Fbrowse.html&ei=lvAeSP_JMI7M0gTQ68TeDA&usg=AFQjCNHwO7YMyN72Q1yfm6mTNWaf0-sr4w&sig2=hDGBLS4VjtJokjq2m0UFEA 

God bless you and yours.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy

[hillsbororiver]

Hi

Hi

what about the book of Enoch that gets quoted in Jude ?

It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, Jude 1:14


why does this appear in the  scriptures ?

What are Paul's sources for the above quotation as well as the preceeding verses concerning Jannes and Jambres and the dispute regarding Mose's body? If they are cited couldn't it be argued that they could be considered scripture? Are they even found in the Apocrypha ?

cheers
Dave UK

Hi Dave,

Apparently Paul was quoting Jewish oral traditional names of the Egyptian magicians recorded in Exodus 7:11 & 12. Remember Paul was very well versed in Jewish/Mosaic laws and tradition. Also we read "it is written" when OT scriptures (even portions of scripture) are quoted that are applicable to the point being made and other times "it is said" when it involves a misunderstood (conventional wisdom) command from the OT or a Jewish oral tradition (sometimes a mix of both, leaven of the Pharisee's perhaps?). Check out Matthew 5:31 - 48 where Jesus reveals the Father's true will in many of the O(ld)T(ime) sayings.

Peace,

Joe

[Kat]

Hi Roy,

I guess it is interesting to read the books that are not found in the Bible.  But we can be assured that what we do have is all that is necessary for the Old Testment. 

This might be of interest, I put together some excerpts from the 2007 conference 'How we got the Bible,' this gives an idea of how the OT Scripture was canonized, so we know that it is complete.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html ----------

Moses was the first one to set aside books and say this is the Word of God.  He had records.  It isn't that God told him everything up there on the mountain, he did have records.
v
The next people who either write and/or set aside books to canonize Scripture was David and Solomon. 
v
KING HEZEKIAH AND ISAIAH - The Third To Canonize.
v
JOSIAH AND JEREMIAH -The Fourth To Canonize Scripture
King Josiah officially recognized and teaches that all should follow ALL THE BOOKS and practices of Temple worship codified and canonized before him.
Jeremiah's prophecies and some of the minor prophets were also recognized at this time.
v
EZRA - Finalized The Canonization Of The Old Testament
It was Ezra who wrote I and II Chronicles (originally one book) 500 years after David and Solomon.  He wrote Ezra and maybe Nehemiah.  Some scholars think Ezra wrote all of those - I and II Chronicles, Ezra and Nehemiah, but be that as it may.  Ezra recorded what happened way back then and how the different books came to be recognized as the official canon of Scripture.  He was the last one to put his approval on what's Hebrew Scripture.
v
Ezra edited some books to make them more understandable.  Example, Deut. 34: 5-12 was added by Ezra.  Moses did not record his own death.
All other periods of canonization are of little importance compared to that of Ezra, who made the final decision on all books.
But Ezra edited numerous books to bring them up to date.  He wrote the Book of Ezra, the Book of Nehemiah was previously known as II Ezra and he wrote I and II Chronicles.  He wrote THE LAST BOOKS OF THE OLD TESTAMENT!
v
So anybody that knew Ezra was a man of God and all those at that time Hezekiah, Josiah, Ezra, Nehemiah, Daniel and Isaiah these were prominent people, so whatever they said was Scripture, was accepted. 

Because from here on, about 450 BC, we had no Scriptural history for 4 ½ centuries.  We go from II Chronicles to Matthew and there is no history.  Now some of the books that are Apocryphal books may be accurate history, it's just that they are not necessarily to be Scripture. 
v
So the original proper numbering of the books of the Old Testament should be 22.  The Jews always had 22 books in all their synagogues, so where did the King James and most others get 39? 
But you can see where we get that, you combine Joshua and Judges into one book.  I and II Kings and I and II Samuel is the Book of the Kingdoms.  Ezra and Nehemiah is one book.  The 12 minor prophets always one book.  They didn't add any new books, they merely numbered them differently. 
v
22 Is A Number Of Completeness
The number 22 completes the Hebrew alphabet.  All that can be said can be said using these 22 letters.  You can write every book there is with 22 letters.  So the idea being everything that God had to say to us in the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures could be said in those 22 letters and it's done in 22 books.  God always has a purpose for numbers and things like that. 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Kathy

Yea it's me again. Thanks for the info, I have downloaded and printed out 85 pages of the 2007 conference and will be giving it a lot of attention. Only what was troubling me was the 2 books of Esdras. Now Joe has confused me all the more by increasing the two to six books. Ezra as we know him in the Bible is a 4Th.century BC scribe, and the Esdras in the apocrypha is more 1st. century AD. They can't have been written by the same scribe, so who impersonated Esdras or Ezra and wrote the 1-6 books? Just inquisitiveness on my part that's all.

Thanks again for your help.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy

[Kat]

Hi Roy,

I got this From Wikipedia, I hope it doesn't add to the confusion.

The two books universally considered canonical were originally one book titled Ezra or Esdras. In the early middle ages, the Hebrew and Latin bibles began to divide it into two books, which were titled Ezra and Nehemiah in Hebrew and 1 Esdras and 2 Esdras.

Another non-canonical book is contained in some Latin bibles as 4 Esdras and some Slavonic manuscripts as 3 Esdras.

Chapters 3-14, or the great bulk of 2 Esdras, are a Jewish apocalypse also sometimes known as 4 Ezra, or the Jewish Apocalypse of Ezra.

The first two chapters of 2 Esdras are found only in the Latin version of the book, and are called 5 Ezra by scholars.

The last two chapters, also called 6 Ezra by scholars, and found in the Latin, but not in the Eastern texts.
------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

.... Like Ray also has experienced as I understand what he said in his latest Bible study that when looking for meaning in the Word of God, he can not find it even though he researches hours and hours on what others have said and think. That others may think and know more is not the dispute or in contention. There are many who know more, better or are far superior in their standing in obedience and submission to God. Just look at Peter and John. Jesus said to Peter what is he to you, YOU FOLLOW ME! I think this is very important. No matter where we are in our knowledge or standing with God, each of us has the call to follow HIM and not popular opinion, comparisons and approvals.

As for me, I am most grateful for the peace of a restful acceptance that the Ezra in my Bible is the one that should be there, and is authorised as inspiration from God. Of course all the periphery and jostling for effect assumptions, false teachings and easy on the ear sooth sayings, are also part of the design and plan of God that will fulfill His Word that few are chosen who enter by the narrow gate.


Peace to you
Arcturus

[Roy Monis]

Hi Roy,

I got this From Wikipedia, I hope it doesn't add to the confusion.

The two books universally considered canonical were originally one book titled Ezra or Esdras. In the early middle ages, the Hebrew and Latin bibles began to divide it into two books, which were titled Ezra and Nehemiah in Hebrew and 1 Esdras and 2 Esdras.

Another non-canonical book is contained in some Latin bibles as 4 Esdras and some Slavonic manuscripts as 3 Esdras.

Chapters 3-14, or the great bulk of 2 Esdras, are a Jewish apocalypse also sometimes known as 4 Ezra, or the Jewish Apocalypse of Ezra.

The first two chapters of 2 Esdras are found only in the Latin version of the book, and are called 5 Ezra by scholars.

The last two chapters, also called 6 Ezra by scholars, and found in the Latin, but not in the Eastern texts.
------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi! Kat

I agree; confusing and now even more confusing. These so called intellectuals do mess round with things they know nothing about, as Ray says, making the simple difficult. Bless you for the information, I'll stick with what I've got - Ezra. He appears to be a real humble fellow whereas Esdras seems to be too full of himself.

God bless.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy.