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[hillsbororiver]

1 Corinthians 9

19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

1 Peter 3:16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

Peace,

Joe

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Joe

Sound council thanks!

Kat....I see you are on this topic. Would you know where the teachings are that Ray illustrates the ballot being that white stone?

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Kat]

Hi Arcturus,

Would you know where the teachings are that Ray illustrates the ballot being that white stone?

http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Let this decide where we stand then.

From http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html

This particular psepos pebble was used in casting a secret ballot. Now notice what a definition of ballot by the American Heritage College Dictionary: ballot n. 6. A small ball [or pebble] once used to register a secret vote. Next notice this amazing definition in Strong’s Greek Lexicon, #5586. psepos, "a pebble (as worn smooth by handling), i.e. (by impl. Of use as a counter or ballot) a verdict (of acquittal) or ticket (of admission)." A BALLOT, a VERDICT OF ACQUITTAL (not guilt) or ticket of ADMISSION (not rejection)! The opposite of this white ball or pebble of acceptance, is to be rejected and turned away by being "BLACK balled."

Maybe this doesn’t excite you, but this little "pebble" is just pregnant with Scriptural and spiritual Truths! Here is an example where the symbols of Revelation shine like giant beacons in the night. No, this is not just some ordinary "stone" promised to the overcomers in the Churches, but a "ballot pebble" of "acquittal and admission" which has "a new name written which no man knows (Rev. 2:17)," which is "My [Christ’s] new name" (Rev. 3:12), and "a name written which no man knew" (Rev. 19:12).

This is a pebble ballot, cast in secret ("The Lord knows them that are His," even if the world doesn’t), to pronounce an acquittal. Acquittal means a judgment of NOT GUILTY! If we are truly, SPIRITUALLY, BAPTIZED into Christ’s death, then we are "…JUSTIFIED from Sin" (Rom. 6:3-7).

And "Freely JUSTIFIED in His grace…" (Rom. 3:24). Justify means, "to declare free of blame; absolve. Theology To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin," The American Heritage College dictionary. That’s ACQUITTAL! Whom ever possesses this white pebble is ACQUITTED OF ALL SINS AND ALL GUILT!

This pebble also signified "admission." An "admission’ is both the permission to enter something, and the price paid for the admission or entrance. Again, Jesus Christ is BOTH! Jesus Christ paid the ultimate penalty for our sins,

"But God commended His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, CHRIST DIED FOR US. Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED by His blood, we shall be SAVED from wrath through Him" (Rom. 5:8-9).

And we can only gain admission and entrance into the kingdom of God through Him. Jesus said, "I am the DOOR…" (John 10:7 & 9), and there is no other. Jesus said to, "Enter ye in at the strait [narrow and cramped] gate…" (Matt. 7:13), and Jesus is the "door" of that gate.

And so this apparently, insignificant little white pebble takes on enormous spiritual value. Our pebble is "white," signifying the purity of both the Giver (Jesus) and the recipient (the overcomer). It is like a spiritual ticket that proves the bearer has been washed clean, forgiven, justified, acquitted of all guilt, and has a paid admission into the Kingdom of God, which Jesus verifies and signifies by His Own written Name! But it is not a literal white pebble with a literal name engraved in it—IT IS A SYMBOL of all of the SPIRITUAL benefits attached to being an "overcomer IN Christ."

"A new name written, which no man knows except he that receives it." [That’s CHRIST, Who] "…had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself … and His name is called The Word of God" (Rev. 19:12-13).

That’s CHRIST, Jesus is "The Word of God" (John 1:1). The world often treats God’s saints as if they were heretics. Only those who possess the Name of Jesus Christ truly "know" what the name is and all that it represents. Not all who speak of the Name, have the name "written" within them. Men’s lips are often far far from their heart.

I already covered how that "name" is representative of THE PERSON WHO BEARS IT. To believe in THE NAME of Jesus Christ is to believe ALL THAT JESUS IS! And the reason we have a "new" name is because all whom are "IN Christ" are "NEW creatures [new creations]: old things are passed away; behold, ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW" ( II Cor. 5:17). We not only have a new name, but we become and ARE A NEW NAME as well.

Peace to you Kat

[mharrell08]

Revelation 2 : 17 He who is able to hear, let him listen to and heed what the Spirit says to the assemblies. To him who overcomes, I will give to eat of the manna that is hidden, and I will give him a white stone with A NEW NAME engraved on the stone, which no one knows or understands except HE WHO RECEIVES IT.  

I understand this in the following way. That NEW NAME will not be debatable, divisible  or negotiable! Let this therefore settle all variable opinions. 

Peace to you

Arcturus

Thank you Arcturus...this was exactly what I stated in my 1st post:

Hello All:

I thought of this verse when reading through this thread (it was also including in "Gospel of the Kingdom" which I have been listening to all week).

Rom. 2  v28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
           v29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

As well as

1 Cor. 2 v16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days

Rev. 2  v17  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Love,
Marques

[Roy Monis]

That is the reason why I stated again & again that a name or a title is insignificant.

Oh really?

John 4:42   
 42.) And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

It's the name or title that makes us who we are. We pray in the Name of Christ...Hollowed be Thy Name..."God" is the title that Jesus has been given. I will say that whatever name we give ourselves is not neccessarily the name that God has given us. In Hebrew, everything was named according to what it was. Men were named according to their surroundings, appearances, etc. Why would have God changed Abram's name if it didn't matter what he was called? What about Saul?

I really don't see "division", I see differences of opinion. People are learning more and more truth and are trying to figure out what they should be called. It's a learning process. We're trying to get what's on the inside to show on the outside. We're human, that's what we do. We just aren't quite sure what's on the inside sometimes. In my personal opinion, I define what a christian is by the actions of christiandom as a whole. I don't like what I see, so I choose not to be called that. That's all. You might think that names don't mean anything, but christiandom, will tell you what "being" a christian means to them, in retrospect, people "make" names mean something. We ALL make our names mean something. When someone you know hears your name, they get immediate pictures of you and a feeling that reminds them of you. In science, everything is named so we know what it is. God had Adam Name every creature. Was it in vain? Those are my comments.


-Beau

Well said Beau! Christendom has a stigma attached to it, a stigma that I hate and therefore choose not to be called by it, and the Word of God tells me plainly to distance myself from it as it is unclean. I simply prefer to obey the Scriptures, what others do is their affair. Each one will be answerable for their own choices whether right or wrong, good or bad.

God bless.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy.

[Roy Monis]

Let this decide where we stand then.

From http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html

This particular psepos pebble was used in casting a secret ballot. Now notice what a definition of ballot by the American Heritage College Dictionary: ballot n. 6. A small ball [or pebble] once used to register a secret vote. Next notice this amazing definition in Strong’s Greek Lexicon, #5586. psepos, "a pebble (as worn smooth by handling), i.e. (by impl. Of use as a counter or ballot) a verdict (of acquittal) or ticket (of admission)." A BALLOT, a VERDICT OF ACQUITTAL (not guilt) or ticket of ADMISSION (not rejection)! The opposite of this white ball or pebble of acceptance, is to be rejected and turned away by being "BLACK balled."

Maybe this doesn’t excite you, but this little "pebble" is just pregnant with Scriptural and spiritual Truths! Here is an example where the symbols of Revelation shine like giant beacons in the night. No, this is not just some ordinary "stone" promised to the overcomers in the Churches, but a "ballot pebble" of "acquittal and admission" which has "a new name written which no man knows (Rev. 2:17)," which is "My [Christ’s] new name" (Rev. 3:12), and "a name written which no man knew" (Rev. 19:12).

This is a pebble ballot, cast in secret ("The Lord knows them that are His," even if the world doesn’t), to pronounce an acquittal. Acquittal means a judgment of NOT GUILTY! If we are truly, SPIRITUALLY, BAPTIZED into Christ’s death, then we are "…JUSTIFIED from Sin" (Rom. 6:3-7).

And "Freely JUSTIFIED in His grace…" (Rom. 3:24). Justify means, "to declare free of blame; absolve. Theology To free (a human) of the guilt and penalty attached to grievous sin," The American Heritage College dictionary. That’s ACQUITTAL! Whom ever possesses this white pebble is ACQUITTED OF ALL SINS AND ALL GUILT!

This pebble also signified "admission." An "admission’ is both the permission to enter something, and the price paid for the admission or entrance. Again, Jesus Christ is BOTH! Jesus Christ paid the ultimate penalty for our sins,

"But God commended His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, CHRIST DIED FOR US. Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED by His blood, we shall be SAVED from wrath through Him" (Rom. 5:8-9).

And we can only gain admission and entrance into the kingdom of God through Him. Jesus said, "I am the DOOR…" (John 10:7 & 9), and there is no other. Jesus said to, "Enter ye in at the strait [narrow and cramped] gate…" (Matt. 7:13), and Jesus is the "door" of that gate.

And so this apparently, insignificant little white pebble takes on enormous spiritual value. Our pebble is "white," signifying the purity of both the Giver (Jesus) and the recipient (the overcomer). It is like a spiritual ticket that proves the bearer has been washed clean, forgiven, justified, acquitted of all guilt, and has a paid admission into the Kingdom of God, which Jesus verifies and signifies by His Own written Name! But it is not a literal white pebble with a literal name engraved in it—IT IS A SYMBOL of all of the SPIRITUAL benefits attached to being an "overcomer IN Christ."

"A new name written, which no man knows except he that receives it." [That’s CHRIST, Who] "…had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself … and His name is called The Word of God" (Rev. 19:12-13).

That’s CHRIST, Jesus is "The Word of God" (John 1:1). The world often treats God’s saints as if they were heretics. Only those who possess the Name of Jesus Christ truly "know" what the name is and all that it represents. Not all who speak of the Name, have the name "written" within them. Men’s lips are often far far from their heart.

I already covered how that "name" is representative of THE PERSON WHO BEARS IT. To believe in THE NAME of Jesus Christ is to believe ALL THAT JESUS IS! And the reason we have a "new" name is because all whom are "IN Christ" are "NEW creatures [new creations]: old things are passed away; behold, ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW" ( II Cor. 5:17). We not only have a new name, but we become and ARE A NEW NAME as well.

Peace to you Kat

Hi! Arcturus.

How strange that you should mention Ray's writings in the Lake of Fire Chapter V111. I quoted the same to Marques only yesterday, and went to some lengths to try and explain that in my view to cling on to the name Christian amounts to an "idol of the heart" the same thing that the Israelites were guilty of when they were called out of bondage. They disobeyed and brought Egyptian idols of the heart out with them.

But I must add I didn't throw the whole book at him as you have done.

We seem to be on the same wavelength sister.

God bless.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy.   

[Roy Monis]

Marques

Why have you have used my post to  misrepresented what and Who I believe?

You say titles are neither good or bad. Have words got no meaning?  If one is slandered as being a babe or immature in spiritual matters, then it means something even if the person is not immature or naive in spiritual matters the slander means something. The inference means something even if there is a disclaimer in the beginning which means nothing!

The Title Lord of Heaven and Earth has a meaning. The title Satan has a meaning. The title Christian comes out of Antioch where Christianity as we know it had its beginnings. The teachings of Paul out of Antioch is where Christianity had its beginnings.

If we look to Ray's teachings we see confirmed with meaning that non can come to God except through Christ. God's chosen Elect come out of Christianity as expounded by Ray through his teachings. The elect can not come out of any other doctrine or dogma or title or creed. The Elect have to come out of Christianity just as "the way" came out of Judaism and as Eve came out of Adam, similarly the elect will come out of Christianity. Who has believed our report. Who?

Of course it is most important what is in the heart but this is not a licence to hypocrisy if it is indeed Christ's Spirit that does not feign affection, pretend or ever disguise Who He is. Being called a Christian is an insult but if one wants to decline from confronting, edifying or correcting the person calling one such title, then all and well but let us not pretend that the title has no meaning or significance. It does have both meaning and significance that God calls us to come out of.

Peace to you

Hii! Arcturus

I agree we either keep to Ray's teaching's and the Scriptures or just don't bother. What I said in my post to Marques was in keeping with that teaching and the Scriptures. At Antioch the followers of Christ were named Christian but over the centuries that name has become stigmatized with corruption, deceit, extortion, murder, persecution, immorality etc.etc...I ask myself, does God really want His chosen to associate with such? "The Lake of Fie Chapter V111 ...The Church in Pergamos." makes this point abundantly clear and the Scriptures support it:
   "Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." (2Cor.5:16-20).

In the face of this evidence I can't see how they can hold on to their view, but of course that's their choice. I personally think that the name Christian is an idol of the heart something out of Babylon that they don't want to discard, like the Israelites bringing out Egyptian idols when they were called out of Egypt.

I've been accused of causing division. Discussing one's view causes division, how ridiculous can one get I ask you?

God bless.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy. 

Roy,

Did Paul ever stop calling himself a Jew even though the Jews were morally corrupt? No. Was this an idol of his heart? No. So, how is this issue any different than one calling them self a Christian?

No matter what you call yourself, a member of Babylon will always assume the 2 of you are of like mind. They are the ones deceived as we both know. Every name/title that means to follow Christ has a stigma to it. And we both agree that the members of Babylon are the ones that placed this stigma to these titles. But does our Lord judge us by this title or by how we live? I could call myself a Member of the Body of Christ but it would be in vain if I do not follow our Lord and Savior, Jesus.

That is the reason why I said it created division. Some believers think of the title Christian from its original scriptural meaning: follower of Christ. But then others (see the division?) say: that title is evil, don't associate yourself with it. With that line of thinking, you could not call yourself ANYTHING because members of Babylon has desecrated every title/name that is associated with following Christ. What you then have is people confused as to what to call themselves. My posts have been more for our "guests" who may be coming around to the Truth and I do not wish for ANYONE to be a stumblingblock for them. Hope this helps your understanding.


Marques

Hi! Marques

To answer your questions:

1...."Did Paul ever stop calling himself a Jew?" Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always understood Jew to be a national identity, descended from Judah. The same as being American, German, English or French. The name Christian is not a national name, it is the name of a particular group of people.

2... Now as far as Babylon always assuming that the two of us are of the same mind. Well, I couldn't care less what Babylon thinks I have come out from their midst, and I mean a complete come out of their midst and count all to do with them a complete loss.

3... Whether our Lord judges us by this title or by how we live, I haven't a clue, judgment is the Lord's jurisdiction and I don't infringe in that area.

4...If people calls themselves members of the Body of Christ and do not follow our Lord and Saviour Jesus, then I'd say they will have reneged and are no different to the party they have come out of.

5...When you meet believers who think of Christian from its original Scriptural meaning, then it's up to us to give them a reason for why we believe as we do: "...but sanctify in your hearts Christ as Lord: being ready always to give answer to every man that asketh you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, yet with meekness and fear:" (1Pet.3:15)

Brother we are separate, we are in Christ, we are a New Creation, we are a New Name, must we concern ourselves with what Babylon and the outside world think of us. Let them see our conduct through our love and behaviour and be their own judge.

In the final analysis, we must each follow what the indwelling Spirit of the Lord is saying to us and follow how and where He is leading us. I can only offer my help, in love, and give you my opinion on what I believe the Spirit is saying to me.

God bless you, my brother, I understand your position but this is what I believe and I cannot go against that, so forgive me.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy.

[kweli]

Just last night I had an urge to go to a bible study meeting with a bunch of christian folks (mostly my family members). I hadnt been there in a while. They know my stance on christendom so obviously going there is never something I look forward to. To my surprise, and I have Jesus as my witness, they taught me something I will treasure for the rest of my life.

WE DO NOT SCRIPTURALLY LOVE ONE ANOTHER was what I was taught. We mistake the Spiritual Sword for something we can use against each other. The reason why we are so divided is we do not all have the same Spirit.

I couldnt believe I was hearing this from 'them'. But I knew it wasnt 'them' who were teaching me. It was HIM. HE was teaching me oneness. We are supposed to be one. Jesus and His Father are One all the way. There's no occasion where they arent one. If we are truely His, we ought to be one because we are being reconciled to The One.

My former church fellows are  probably waiting for me to wake up one day and find myself in the pits on hell so they can say "I told you so". But I've learned from the Scriptures that not only am I supposed to not judge them, but I must love them. And what is Scriptural love? A lot of us here have the privilegde of fancy software that can even tell you how many times love shows up in the Scriptures and where it was used wrong/right? Search for it and mediate upon it. Is this thread filled with that kind of love? Are we capable of being one, whether we agree to disagree (because in the kingdom, THERE WILL BE ONENESS)? Do we still remember the most important Law? Is this how we want others to love us?

I'm not picking sides. God has already chosen which side I fall in. All I'm saying is I'm choosing the Word of God, which says even when we correct each other, it must be in love. Where is the love fellow believers???

[mharrell08]

Hi! Arcturus.

How strange that you should mention Ray's writings in the Lake of Fire Chapter V111. I quoted the same to Marques only yesterday, and went to some lengths to try and explain that in my view to cling on to the name Christian amounts to an "idol of the heart" the same thing that the Israelites were guilty of when they were called out of bondage. They disobeyed and brought Egyptian idols of the heart out with them.

But I must add I didn't throw the whole book at him as you have done.

We seem to be on the same wavelength sister.

God bless.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy.   

Roy,

No one is trying to cling to any name: Christian, Spiritual Jew, Member of the Body of Christ, or any of that. This topic of this thread was a simple yes or no question. You obviously have not read ALL of my posts on this topic for you to have that short-sighted opinion.

Here was the original question and see where this thread has gone:

I thought to claim oneself to be a Christian meant that you followed Christ Jesus. I read here and there on the forum that some do not consider themselves to be "Christian" Now I do believe that "Christianity" has become perverse and I assume this is the reason. However if there is additional information that will help enlighten please pass it on.

Roy Coates is asking is it wrong to consider yourself a Christian even though members of Christendom/Babylon call themselves the same. I stated no because:

Romans 2:28-29  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

(1)  Paul never stops calling himself a Jew even though his is now a Spiritual Jew (one inwardly)

(2)  Does this same principle apply to the name Christian? I believe it does. I have asked this same question numerous times on this thread and no one has tried to answer to why it is not so.

And what was so hypocritical of you, Roy Moris, is the fact you posted numerous times under the title "Member of the Body of Christ" even though that title has a "stigma" to it as well from all the Babylonian denominations named as such. Again let me state this for all:

If ANYONE refers to themselves as a follower of Christ (whether they call themselves Christian, Spiritual Jew, Member of the Body of Christ, etc.) then a member of Babylon will ALWAYS assume that this person believes in the same Babylonian doctrines as them!

Is the above statement false? No

What someone refers to themselves as in their walk with Christ is unimportant. What they DO (or really, what the Lord will have them do) in their walk with Christ is of the upmost importance. So the name Christian is neither good nor bad. Mods, if I'm lying, please correct me.


Marques

[mharrell08]

but this is what I believe and I cannot go against that, so forgive me.
Roy.

I always forgive you but I am not asking you to go against the Word of God.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always understood Jew to be a national identity, descended from Judah

What does Paul say in Rom. 2:28-29? He says you are a Jew inwardly! How is that a "national" identity? Why are we letting the world dictact what a Jew or Christian mean? The scripture state the complete opposite for these names from what the world would have you believe!

I give up...


Marques

[Craig]

5 pages of debate and strife.  We've kicked this dead horse enough.

Agree to disagree or take the debate to pm.

Craig