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Acts 23:8
Kat:
Hi Eric,
--- Quote ---Paul speaks as if this is a present reality. We are alive in Christ, after having been dead in trespasses. Christ is our resurrection and our life. It’s not just a future event that will happen at the last day. This resurrection to life is something we have here and now in Him. Death hath no power over those who believe and trust in Jesus.
--- End quote ---
I think your points are right on. Ray teaches that the Elect do have that life in Christ now, in that they are given the earnest of the Spirit indwelling now. Here is an email where he say this.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2619.0.html -------
Dear Bobby:
The Spirit of Christ is eternal, and when we have the Spirit of Christ we have eternal life in us. But.... BUT,we have only the "earnest" of that spirit, and it will not keep our physical bodies from dying. But when we have the earnest of God's spirit, it is proof that there is more to come: "In Whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that you believed, you were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE. Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL [not now; not yet, but later] the redemption of the purchased POSSESSION, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).
And that takes place at the resurrection of the saints at the last trump. One more point: although we are promised "eonian" life, nonethless, the spirit that gives us "immortality," IS ETERNAL.
God be with you,
Ray
Roy Monis:
Hi! Kathy
Thanks for your response and I follow what you mean about the Holy Spirit being given at Pentecost.
But what gets me is what Jesus said to Martha in reply; "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live; and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (Jn.11:25,26).
She believed that He was the resurrection and the life. This is very similar to when He met with His disciples before Pentecost: "And when He had said this, 'He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit.'" (Jn.20:22).
God Bless
Love in Christ Jesus
Roy
gmik:
Wow. Thanks for an enlightening thread!!!
Kat:
Hi Roy,
When Jesus "breathed on them" though it was before Pentecost it was after His resurrection. So I think at that point He was able to give the Holy Spirit. Though it was sent in a very spectacular way to all those gathered on Pentecost.
With Martha I think it was more of a teaching lesson to be recalled later, she did tell John since it is Scripture. I'm not sure any of His followers realized that Christ was going to suffer and die, much less what it meant to have "life," as Him indwelling through the Holy Spirit.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
ericsteven:
Hi Roy,
Yes, Martha confessed her belief that Jesus was the Son of God, but did she truly understand what that meant? Several verses later we read this:
John 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been [dead] four days.
John 11:40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
The way I understand it is that at this point, Martha was no different than all of us when, at one time in the Babylonian system of churches, we all confessed Jesus as the Son of God, but after having our eyes opened by God through the teachings of Ray, we can look back and see clearly that we really had no true concept of what we were confessing.
And even now, we are all still learning and growing to understand and live as much as possible those truths that we have received here at bibletruths.
Martha confessed her belief in Jesus as the Son of God, and I believe she was genuine in that response, but she had no understanding of what that truly meant. Ray teaches that Jesus converted not one person during his whole fleshly ministry on this earth. (page 4, How Hard is Getting Saved Transcription)
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.msg29185.html#msg29185
Even Peter confessed Jesus as the Son of God in Matthew 16, but that didn’t mean he understood at that time everything that that confession meant.
As far as John 20:22, the disciples could not have received the Holy Spirit at this point, otherwise there would be a contradiction by Jesus Himself when He says the following:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
There are some who believe that Jesus ascended to His Father after speaking with Mary at the tomb, and then was able to return to the disciples and breathe the Holy Spirit on them. But this line of thought again contradicts the words of Jesus when he says to the apostles in Acts 1:
Acts 1:8 but ye shall receive power at the coming of the Holy Spirit upon you, and ye shall be witnesses to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and unto the end of the earth.
That sounds like to me that the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon them.
Acts 2 continues by saying:
Acts 2:4 and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, according as the Spirit was giving them to declare.
John never records that they were filled with the Holy Spirit whe Jesus breathed on them. It is only in Acts that it is recorded that all twelve disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit.
The way I understand John 20:22 is that Jesus was prophesying about what was to come on the day of Pentecost. By breathing on them, perhaps He was illustrating how the Holy Spirit would come. We read in Acts 2:
Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Young’s Literal Bible translates it this way:
Acts 2:2 and there came suddenly out of the heaven a sound as of a bearing violent breath, and it filled all the house where they were sitting
Of course, that’s just a supposition on my part.
But remember, Thomas wasn’t even with the rest of the disciples when Jesus ‘breathed on them.’ So either 1) Jesus breathed on him separately at some point that is not recorded, 2) Thomas had to spend the next 40 days among the other 11 as the odd man out until he received the Spirit at Pentecost, or 3) or like I suggested, Jesus was simply foretelling of an event to come that would resemble what He was doing then – that the breath of God would come upon them and at that time, they would begin the ministry that had been planned for them from the beginning.
Thoughts?
God bless,
Eric
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