Acts 23:8

[Roy Monis]

Hi! everyone.

I'm trying to figure out what resurrection the Pharisees believed in. Without Jesus in the picture the only other resurrection available was the resurrection to judgment, which to me means judgment of All Mankind. This in a way confirms that all mankind will eventually be saved.

Just another vague thought.

God bless.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy.

[kweli]

That there is a very good question. Since the Pharisees are likened to modern day christians then maybe they are the best people to ask
      
Come to think of it, their response will be more heresy. No wonder Jesus said to them:

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. (Matthew 11:18-19)

[Kat]

Hi Roy,

I got this from Matthew Henry's commentary, I think it gives a pretty good description of these two groups.

1. The great council was made up of Sadducees and Pharisees, and Paul perceived it. He knew the characters of many of them ever since he lived among them, and saw those among them whom he knew to be Sadducees, and others whom he knew to be Pharisees (Act_23:6): One part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, and perhaps nearly an equal part.

Now these differed very much from one another, and yet they ordinarily agreed well enough to do the business of the council together.

(1.) The Pharisees were bigots, zealous for the ceremonies, not only those which God had appointed, but those which were enjoined by the tradition of the elders. They were great sticklers for the authority of the church, and for enforcing obedience to its injunctions, which occasioned many quarrels between them and our Lord Jesus; but at the same time they were very orthodox in the faith of the Jewish church concerning the world of spirits, the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

(2.) The Sadducees were deists - no friends to the scripture, or divine revelation. The books of Moses they admitted as containing a good history and a good law, but had little regard to the other books of the Old Testament.

The account here given of these Sadducees is,
[1.] That they deny the resurrection; not only the return of the body to life, but a future state of rewards and punishments. They had neither hope of eternal happiness nor dread of eternal misery, nor expectation of any thing on the other side death; and it was upon these principles that they said, It is in vain to serve God, and called the proud happy, Mal_3:14, Mal_3:15.
[2.] That they denied the existence of angels and spirits, and allowed of no being but matter. They thought that God himself was corporeal, and had parts and members as we have. When they read of angels in the Old Testament, they supposed them to be messengers that God made and sent on his errands as there was occasion, or that they were impressions on the fancies of those they were sent to, and no real existences - that they were this, or that, or any thing rather than what they were. And, as for the souls of men, they looked upon them to be nothing else but the temperament of the humours of the body, or the animal spirits, but denied their existence in a state of separation from the body, and any difference between the soul of a man and of a beast.

These, no doubt, pretended to be free-thinkers, but really thought as meanly, absurdly, and slavishly, as possible. It is strange how men of such corrupt and wicked principles could come into office, and have a place in the great sanhedrim; but many of them were of quality and estate, and they complied with the public establishment, and so got in and kept in.
-----------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Roy Monis]

Hi Roy,

I got this from Matthew Henry's commentary, I think it gives a pretty good description of these two groups.

1. The great council was made up of Sadducees and Pharisees, and Paul perceived it. He knew the characters of many of them ever since he lived among them, and saw those among them whom he knew to be Sadducees, and others whom he knew to be Pharisees (Act_23:6): One part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, and perhaps nearly an equal part.

Now these differed very much from one another, and yet they ordinarily agreed well enough to do the business of the council together.

(1.) The Pharisees were bigots, zealous for the ceremonies, not only those which God had appointed, but those which were enjoined by the tradition of the elders. They were great sticklers for the authority of the church, and for enforcing obedience to its injunctions, which occasioned many quarrels between them and our Lord Jesus; but at the same time they were very orthodox in the faith of the Jewish church concerning the world of spirits, the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

(2.) The Sadducees were deists - no friends to the scripture, or divine revelation. The books of Moses they admitted as containing a good history and a good law, but had little regard to the other books of the Old Testament.

The account here given of these Sadducees is,
[1.] That they deny the resurrection; not only the return of the body to life, but a future state of rewards and punishments. They had neither hope of eternal happiness nor dread of eternal misery, nor expectation of any thing on the other side death; and it was upon these principles that they said, It is in vain to serve God, and called the proud happy, Mal_3:14, Mal_3:15.
[2.] That they denied the existence of angels and spirits, and allowed of no being but matter. They thought that God himself was corporeal, and had parts and members as we have. When they read of angels in the Old Testament, they supposed them to be messengers that God made and sent on his errands as there was occasion, or that they were impressions on the fancies of those they were sent to, and no real existences - that they were this, or that, or any thing rather than what they were. And, as for the souls of men, they looked upon them to be nothing else but the temperament of the humours of the body, or the animal spirits, but denied their existence in a state of separation from the body, and any difference between the soul of a man and of a beast.

These, no doubt, pretended to be free-thinkers, but really thought as meanly, absurdly, and slavishly, as possible. It is strange how men of such corrupt and wicked principles could come into office, and have a place in the great sanhedrim; but many of them were of quality and estate, and they complied with the public establishment, and so got in and kept in.
-----------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi! Kath.

I understand what you are saying. But what I'm driving at is this; our goal is the resurrection to Life through belief in our Lord Jesus Christ, now their resurrection must of necessity have a goal of sorts also, so what is that goal? Ours is Life, what is theirs?

Not that it really matters because I'm no Pharisee, but it's nice to know. Man's inquisitiveness I suppose.

Thanks for your response

God bless.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy.   

[Roy Monis]

That there is a very good question. Since the Pharisees are likened to modern day christians then maybe they are the best people to ask
      
Come to think of it, their response will be more heresy. No wonder Jesus said to them:

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. (Matthew 11:18-19)

Hi! Kweli

Heh! brother you're a big help, where on earth am I going to find a Pharisee? Do you know of one? Please introduce me and I, maybe, will get all my facts right.

Thanks brother all the same.

God bless.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy. 

[ericsteven]

Hi Roy,

Would it be helpful to suggest that the Pharisees believed in the same resurrection that we do, that of the resurrection to "eternal" life and the resurrection to judgement?  They, unlike the Saducees who only accepted the Pentateuch, believed in all the Old Covenant scriptures that foretold that the Messiah would come to resurrect his followers to "eternal" life; they just didn't believe that that Messiah was Jesus.

Daniel 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Job 14:7  For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.

Job 14:13-14  O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!  If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job 19:25-27  As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.  Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God, Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another.

Here's another viewpoint I found that's a little different.  Don't know how worthy it is, but from their perspective it makes sense and could be helpful in your study.

The Pharisees' affirmation and the Sadducees' denial of resurrection needs to be understood in the context of what 'resurrection' meant to first-century Jews.  Resurrection, while focusing attention on the new embodiment of the individuals involved, retained its original sense of the restoration of Israel by her covenant god.  As such, 'resurrection' was not simply a pious hope about new life for dead people.  It carried with it all that was associated with the return from exile itself: forgiveness of sins, the re-establishment of Israel as the true humanity of the covenant god, and the renewal of all creation.

God bless,

Eric

[Kat]

Hi Roy,

I think this is interesting.  It is good to have an understanding of what those that Jesus spoke to believed.  We read many things about the Pharisee in Scripture, so it would be helpful to know a bit more about them.  It seems a little complicated, as they seemed to have a change of beliefs down through the centuries.  But I think this is a good basic explanation.

A sections from the JewishEncyclopedia.com ---

As a matter of fact, resurrection formed part of the Messianic hope. Especially were those that died as martyrs in the cause of the Law expected to share in the future glory of Israel. The very term used to express the idea of sharing in the future life is "to inherit the land". The resurrection, therefore, was believed to take place solely in the Holy Land. Jerusalem alone is the city of which the dead shall blossom forth like grass. Those that are buried elsewhere will therefore be compelled to creep through cavities in the earth until they reach the Holy Land.

The trumpet blown to gather the tribes of Israel, will also rouse the dead. The nations, together with their guardian angels and stars, shall be cast into Gehenna. According to R. Eleazar of Modi'im, to the angelic princes of the seventy-two nations who will protest because, though it has sinned like the rest, God favors Israel, God will answer, "Let each nation go through the fire together with its guardian deity "; then all the nations will be consumed in common with their deities, who can not shield them, but Israel will be saved by its God.
Another view is that the glare of the sun will test the heathen's loyalty to the Law they promised to observe, and they will be cast into the eternal fire.
The conception of God entering Hades to save Israel from Gehenna gave rise to the Christian conception of the Messiah descending into Hades to reclaim his own among those who are imprisoned there.
The sole end of the judgment of the heathen is, according to R. Eleazar of Modi'im, the establishment of the kingdom of God. "When the Messiah appears on the roof of the Temple announcing Israel's redemption, the light emanating from him shall cause the nations to fall prostrate before him; and Satan himself will shudder, for the Messiah will cast him into Gehenna, and death and sorrow shall flee forever".

As in the course of time the national hope with its national resurrection and final day of judgment no longer satisfied the intellect and human sentiment, the resurrection assumed a more universal and cosmic character.
It was declared to be solely the act of God, who alone possesses the key that will unlock the tombs. "As all men are born and die, so will they rise again," says Eleazar ha-Ḳappar. It was believed that resurrection would occur at the close of the Messianic era. This is particularly emphasized in II Esd. vii. 26-36: "Death will befall the Messiah, after his 400 years' reign, and all mankind and the world will lapse into primeval silence for seven days, after which the renewed earth will give forth its dead, and God will judge the world and assign the evil-doers to the fire of hell and the righteous to paradise, which is on the opposite side." Also, according to Syriac Apoc. Baruch, the resurrection will take place after the Messiah has "returned to heaven" and will include all men, the righteous to meet their reward, and the wicked to meet their eternal doom. This lasting doom is called "second death". 
---------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Roy Monis]

Hi Roy,

I think this is interesting.  It is good to have an understanding of what those that Jesus spoke to believed.  We read many things about the Pharisee in Scripture, so it would be helpful to know a bit more about them.  It seems a little complicated, as they seemed to have a change of beliefs down through the centuries.  But I think this is a good basic explanation.

A sections from the JewishEncyclopedia.com ---

As a matter of fact, resurrection formed part of the Messianic hope. Especially were those that died as martyrs in the cause of the Law expected to share in the future glory of Israel. The very term used to express the idea of sharing in the future life is "to inherit the land". The resurrection, therefore, was believed to take place solely in the Holy Land. Jerusalem alone is the city of which the dead shall blossom forth like grass. Those that are buried elsewhere will therefore be compelled to creep through cavities in the earth until they reach the Holy Land.

The trumpet blown to gather the tribes of Israel, will also rouse the dead. The nations, together with their guardian angels and stars, shall be cast into Gehenna. According to R. Eleazar of Modi'im, to the angelic princes of the seventy-two nations who will protest because, though it has sinned like the rest, God favors Israel, God will answer, "Let each nation go through the fire together with its guardian deity "; then all the nations will be consumed in common with their deities, who can not shield them, but Israel will be saved by its God.
Another view is that the glare of the sun will test the heathen's loyalty to the Law they promised to observe, and they will be cast into the eternal fire.
The conception of God entering Hades to save Israel from Gehenna gave rise to the Christian conception of the Messiah descending into Hades to reclaim his own among those who are imprisoned there.
The sole end of the judgment of the heathen is, according to R. Eleazar of Modi'im, the establishment of the kingdom of God. "When the Messiah appears on the roof of the Temple announcing Israel's redemption, the light emanating from him shall cause the nations to fall prostrate before him; and Satan himself will shudder, for the Messiah will cast him into Gehenna, and death and sorrow shall flee forever".

As in the course of time the national hope with its national resurrection and final day of judgment no longer satisfied the intellect and human sentiment, the resurrection assumed a more universal and cosmic character.
It was declared to be solely the act of God, who alone possesses the key that will unlock the tombs. "As all men are born and die, so will they rise again," says Eleazar ha-Ḳappar. It was believed that resurrection would occur at the close of the Messianic era. This is particularly emphasized in II Esd. vii. 26-36: "Death will befall the Messiah, after his 400 years' reign, and all mankind and the world will lapse into primeval silence for seven days, after which the renewed earth will give forth its dead, and God will judge the world and assign the evil-doers to the fire of hell and the righteous to paradise, which is on the opposite side." Also, according to Syriac Apoc. Baruch, the resurrection will take place after the Messiah has "returned to heaven" and will include all men, the righteous to meet their reward, and the wicked to meet their eternal doom. This lasting doom is called "second death". 
---------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi! Kath.

Sorry for putting you to all that trouble but it's all in the cause of learning.
   
After all that, to me it's more than just Dutch, it's double Dutch. One consolation though, I'm not a Pharisee nor aspiring to become one. But it was nice to know. I'll stick with Jesus Christ and await His return and hope to be among the first fruits. I think that's the right course, don't you?

Thanks a million and God bless you.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy. 

[Kat]

Hi Roy UK,

Sorry for putting you to all that trouble but it's all in the cause of learning.

It's no trouble, but is a means by which I learn also.  Lots of these questions I don't have the answer to until I search for it, so I'm learning along the way.  God has blessed me with the time (to search) and desire to study here with everybody and for that I'm exceedingly grateful.           

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[sansmile]

Hi Kat,

And may God continue to bless you Kat, your research and posts show Holy Spirit inspiration xxxxxxxxxxxx

God Bless
Sandie

[Roy Monis]

Hi Roy,

Would it be helpful to suggest that the Pharisees believed in the same resurrection that we do, that of the resurrection to "eternal" life and the resurrection to judgement?  They, unlike the Saducees who only accepted the Pentateuch, believed in all the Old Covenant scriptures that foretold that the Messiah would come to resurrect his followers to "eternal" life; they just didn't believe that that Messiah was Jesus.

Daniel 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Job 14:7  For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.

Job 14:13-14  O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!  If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job 19:25-27  As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.  Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God, Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another.

Here's another viewpoint I found that's a little different.  Don't know how worthy it is, but from their perspective it makes sense and could be helpful in your study.

The Pharisees' affirmation and the Sadducees' denial of resurrection needs to be understood in the context of what 'resurrection' meant to first-century Jews.  Resurrection, while focusing attention on the new embodiment of the individuals involved, retained its original sense of the restoration of Israel by her covenant god.  As such, 'resurrection' was not simply a pious hope about new life for dead people.  It carried with it all that was associated with the return from exile itself: forgiveness of sins, the re-establishment of Israel as the true humanity of the covenant god, and the renewal of all creation.

God bless,

Eric

Hi! Kath and Eric.

Thanks a million sister and brother. The last paragraph in Eric's response is exactly what you have researched Kath, but what is really interesting in Eric's response are the verses he has quoted from Job.14:7,13,14 and 19:25-27.

But I think Daniel 12:2,3 :- "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever." (Dan.12:3,3).

That really hits the nail right on the head, if we could only have another to verify it. There has to be another somewhere. Job 14 comes pretty close, real close:- "If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait until my change comes. You will call, and I will answer You; You will long for the work of Your hands." (Job 14:14,15).

I do believe that they believed the same as we do, the difference being that they do not accept Jesus as the Messiah and are waiting for their Messiah to come.

Thank you Kath and Eric I do believe problem solved.

God Bless

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy

[ericsteven]

Hi Roy,

Of course all glory goes to our Father for the fellowship and learning we've gained in this thread, but I do have to say 'thank you' to you for your question.  I definitely echo what Kat said, but add that although I enjoy my personal study of the Scriptures, it's thoughts like yours and people like you who are willing to express them that make me excited to put aside my own study for a while to focus on and research a concept that I may have never even thought to question. 

May He never quench our desire to know more about Him.

Thank you, brother, and God bless.

Eric

[Roy Monis]

Hi Roy,

Of course all glory goes to our Father for the fellowship and learning we've gained in this thread, but I do have to say 'thank you' to you for your question.  I definitely echo what Kat said, but add that although I enjoy my personal study of the Scriptures, it's thoughts like yours and people like you who are willing to express them that make me excited to put aside my own study for a while to focus on and research a concept that I may have never even thought to question. 

May He never quench our desire to know more about Him.

Thank you, brother, and God bless.

Eric

Hi! Eric and Kath

I'm so sorry to keep harping on the subject of the Pharisees' belief in a resurrection as I'm sure the Scriptures you have quoted are more than adequate, but the beastly ghost won't die, it keeps nagging in the background of my stupid mind.

Another thought flashed through my mind and I immediately recorded it on my digital recorder. And this thought appears to answer the question directly from the New Testament with an accompanying spiritual witness. I'd appreciate both your comments on this as they add considerable value to my walk with Him.

23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live; 26and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this? 27She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I have believed that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, even he that cometh into the world." (Jn.11:23-27).

The witness:

"......6And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and drew nigh unto Damascus, about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. 7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest. 9And they that were with me beheld indeed the light, but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. 10And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do." (Acts 22:6-10).

I believe that when Martha answered Jesus and said; " I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." that she was still an unconverted Jewess and believed in a resurrection to judgment. But when
Jesus said to her; " I am the resurrection, and the life.....Believest thou this?" and she replied; "Yea, Lord: I have believed that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, even he that cometh into the world" that she was immediately converted to believe in a resurrection to life through Him

I also believe in the case of Paul, while on the way to Damascus he was an unconverted Pharisee who believed in the resurrection to judgment. But after his supernatural experience, when he asked the question;"Who art Thou Lord? and received the answer; "I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest" and he immediately responded; "What shall I do, Lord?" he was immediately converted to believe in a resurrection to life through Him.

God bless and sorry to be such a pest. The green bits are just to emphasize what I trying to say.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy

[Kat]

Hi Roy,

I believe that Paul's experience brought about an instant change, because of the miraculous way that it happened.

But with Martha I'm not inclined to believe on this occasion that she was miraculous converted.  But as you stated, she was still an unconverted Jewess and believed in a resurrection to judgment.  She may have had a  better understanding then most listening to Jesus. 
But one thing is that Jesus had not, at that time, been sacrificed and the Holy Spirit had not come.  So I don't think they comprehended what was yet to come.  Martha did believe as much as she could without the indwelling of the Spirit, which was yet to come on Pentecost.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[ericsteven]

Hi Roy and Kat,

I'm thinking, and correct me if I'm off base, that some of what you're getting at here revolves around the belief that there are two separate resurrections.  It has been taught to me in the past that in the last day, there will be a resurrection of all the righteous first at the coming of Christ, and then after the millennial reign, the rest of the dead will be resurrected to judgment at the Great White Throne Judgment.  So, in essence, there are two different resurrections.  Many people use Revelation 20:5 as the Scripture to prove this.

Revelation 20:5     But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

As Ray has pointed out that some scholars believe the first part of that verse is spurious, we may have to reconsider this idea of two separate resurrections.  If that is the case, it may be that the Pharisees and the first century Jews of the day, like Martha, did believe in both the resurrection to life and the resurrection to judgment, but to them, it was all one event; it wasn't two separate events as believed by some today.  In other words, when they said 'resurrection,' they believed all would be resurrected at one time – some to life and some to judgment. 

This viewpoint could be substantiated by Jesus' parable of the sheep and the goats. 

Matt 25:31      When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Matt 25:32     And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:

Matt 25:33     And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

This sounds like one event.  As does this, when Jesus says in John:

John 5:28     Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

John 5:29     And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Of course, everyone wants to believe that they will be in the resurrection to life.  Most of Churchianity today believes that they will be in this resurrection.  I mean, I hope and pray that I am found worthy to be in it, but as we know, it is God and God alone who has already made that decision even before the foundation of the earth.

God hasn't 100% sold me yet on either viewpoint about the resurrection.  I'm still studying and trying to hear what He has to say, but if Mary, by referring to the resurrection, was confirming her belief that all would be resurrected in the last day, then what could Jesus have been getting at here? 

I think perhaps He may have been saying that the resurrection to life that some will experience in the last day is just a confirmation of the spiritual life that those who believe in Him now have.  We were all dead in our sins, but through Jesus, we have life.  So in essence, Jesus has resurrected us from our death in sin to a new life in Him.  As Paul says to the Ephesians:

Eph 2:5      even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,)

Eph 2:6     and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,

Eph 2:7     that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,

Paul speaks as if this is a present reality.  We are alive in Christ, after having been dead in trespasses.  Christ is our resurrection and our life.  It's not just a future event that will happen at the last day.  This resurrection to life is something we have here and now in Him.  Death hath no power over those who believe and trust in Jesus.

And like Kat said, while Martha's understanding of that truth may have become a little clearer after Jesus raised her brother from physical death, it wouldn't be until the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and afterwards that anyone would truly understand the life we now have in and through Him, which will lead to the confirmation of that life in the resurrection at the last day.

Thoughts?

God bless,

Eric

[Kat]

Hi Eric,

Paul speaks as if this is a present reality.  We are alive in Christ, after having been dead in trespasses.  Christ is our resurrection and our life.  It's not just a future event that will happen at the last day.  This resurrection to life is something we have here and now in Him.  Death hath no power over those who believe and trust in Jesus.

I think your points are right on.  Ray teaches that the Elect do have that life in Christ now, in that they are given the earnest of the Spirit indwelling now.  Here is an email where he say this.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2619.0.html -------

Dear Bobby:
The Spirit of Christ is eternal, and when we have the Spirit of Christ we have eternal life in us.  But.... BUT,we have only the "earnest" of that spirit, and it will not keep our physical bodies from dying. But when we have the earnest of God's spirit, it is proof that there is more to come:  "In Whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that you believed, you were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE.  Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL [not now; not yet, but later] the redemption of the purchased POSSESSION, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).

And that takes place at the resurrection of the saints at the last trump. One more point: although we are promised "eonian" life, nonethless, the spirit that gives us "immortality," IS ETERNAL.

God be with you,
Ray

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Kathy

Thanks for your response and I follow what you mean about the Holy Spirit being given at Pentecost.

But what gets me is what Jesus said to Martha in reply; "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live; and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (Jn.11:25,26).

She believed that He was the resurrection and the life. This is very similar to when He met with His disciples before Pentecost: "And when He had said this, 'He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit.'" (Jn.20:22).

God Bless

Love in Christ Jesus

Roy

[gmik]

Wow.  Thanks for an enlightening thread!!!

[Kat]

Hi Roy,

When Jesus "breathed on them" though it was before Pentecost it was after His resurrection.  So I think at that point He was able to give the Holy Spirit.  Though it was sent in a very spectacular way to all those gathered on Pentecost.

With Martha I think it was more of a teaching lesson to be recalled later, she did tell John since it is Scripture.  I'm not sure any of His followers realized that Christ was going to suffer and die, much less what it meant to have "life," as Him indwelling through the Holy Spirit.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[ericsteven]

Hi Roy,

Yes, Martha confessed her belief that Jesus was the Son of God, but did she truly understand what that meant?  Several verses later we read this:

John 11:39     Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been [dead] four days.

John 11:40      Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

The way I understand it is that at this point, Martha was no different than all of us when, at one time in the Babylonian system of churches, we all confessed Jesus as the Son of God, but after having our eyes opened by God through the teachings of Ray, we can look back and see clearly that we really had no true concept of what we were confessing. 

And even now, we are all still learning and growing to understand and live as much as possible those truths that we have received here at bibletruths.

Martha confessed her belief in Jesus as the Son of God, and I believe she was genuine in that response, but she had no understanding of what that truly meant.  Ray teaches that Jesus converted not one person during his whole fleshly ministry on this earth.  (page 4, How Hard is Getting Saved Transcription)

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.msg29185.html#msg29185

Even Peter confessed Jesus as the Son of God in Matthew 16, but that didn't mean he understood at that time everything that that confession meant.

As far as John 20:22, the disciples could not have received the Holy Spirit at this point, otherwise there would be a contradiction by Jesus Himself when He says the following:

John 16:7       Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

There are some who believe that Jesus ascended to His Father after speaking with Mary at the tomb, and then was able to return to the disciples and breathe the Holy Spirit on them.  But this line of thought again contradicts the words of Jesus when he says to the apostles in Acts 1:

Acts 1:8      but ye shall receive power at the coming of the Holy Spirit upon you, and ye shall be witnesses to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and unto the end of the earth.

That sounds like to me that the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon them. 

Acts 2 continues by saying:

Acts 2:4     and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, according as the Spirit was giving them to declare.

John never records that they were filled with the Holy Spirit whe Jesus breathed on them.  It is only in Acts that it is recorded that all twelve disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit. 

The way I understand John 20:22 is that Jesus was prophesying about what was to come on the day of Pentecost.  By breathing on them, perhaps He was illustrating how the Holy Spirit would come.  We read in Acts 2:

Acts 2:2     And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

Young's Literal Bible translates it this way:

Acts 2:2     and there came suddenly out of the heaven a sound as of a bearing violent breath, and it filled all the house where they were sitting

Of course, that's just a supposition on my part. 

But remember, Thomas wasn't even with the rest of the disciples when Jesus 'breathed on them.'  So either 1) Jesus breathed on him separately at some point that is not recorded, 2) Thomas had to spend the next 40 days among the other 11 as the odd man out until he received the Spirit at Pentecost, or 3) or like I suggested, Jesus was simply foretelling of an event to come that would resemble what He was doing then – that the breath of God would come upon them and at that time, they would begin the ministry that had been planned for them from the beginning.

Thoughts?

God bless,

Eric