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[winner08]

A friend of mine ask the question: If nobody ascended into heaven, what about Elijah? Well I couldn't give her an ansewer. I said:well in the bible after Elijah went up into heaven somebody received a letter fourteen yrs. latter from Elijah. Witch means he was here on earth somewhere. Now after saying this it occurred to me I should have kept my mouth shut. I did more harm than good. If she was confused before, Man ,she must be totally lost now. Then I remembered what one of the moderators said, teaching is a special talent from God. Or something alone them lines. Anyways does anybody have an ansewer to the question about Elijah?

                                 Thanks Darren

[mharrell08]

You seem to be right on Darren. Here are some emails from Ray:

you say jesus is the only person who went to heaven . how about elighji who god took and moses who talked with jesus in the garden before his crusifiction
     
    Dear Henry and Mabel:
    Heaven is both a location as a direction--UP from the earth, the air, the atmosphere, the sky.  And, it is a realm as in "The Kingdom OF heaven."
     
    Elijah was transported through the air, the sky, to a different location.  Later Elijah wrote a letter from a different location where he was living (II Chron. 21:12).  As for Moses and Elijah in the so-called "mount of transfiguration," it was not a physical, literal event:  "And behold, there APPEARED unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him...and as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell THE VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead"  (Matt. 17:3 & 9).  It was a VISION.  It never "literally" happened. It is a VISION, not unlike a dream that takes place in one's mind, NOT LITERALLY in the flesh.  Besides, Heb. 11 tells us clearly that Enoch (Ver. 5), Abraham (Verse 08), Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and MOSES (Vers. 20-24) "These ALL DIED IN FAITH, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES..." (Ver. 13).
     
    God be with you,
    Ray


Ray,
You have a air of pride when you write in concern with scripture, none-the-less I can overlook this.  For the sake of learning, for we know we all see as looking through a dark glass (at best) and you must understand the deeper meaning of Jesus’ speech in concern with ascending.
 
John 3:13  (Darby Translation)

  13 And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

This is the proper interpretation thereof.

I hope you can understand this.  No one goes up unless they came down “OUT OF HEAVENâ€? (Even Jesus is constrained to this truth therefore the reason he says …Even the Son of Man (Who is the Son of Man in the plural sense?, I hope you will reveal your understanding in this matter).

I hope you will take a couple minutes out of your busy day to read the following:

http://godisjesus.net/olive_branches.html

There are those born from above (natural olive branches), there are those who are grafted into the Olive Tree (Gentiles, called and then chosen), and then there is the Wheat which is all adamic man.

I can discuss this in full detail with scripture if you can bare it.

Peacetroll.


Dear Troll:

And, as Enoch and Elijah never "came down FROM heaven," neither did they (by Christ's own words), neither did they, therefore, ever GO UP to heaven.

No, I do not wish to discuss this endlessly. I have over 600 unanswered emails ahead of yours, and this is my last disucssion of your thinking that Jesus is His OWN FATHER.

God be with you,

Ray

[Akira329]

   Elijah was transported through the air, the sky, to a different location.

He was transported through the air?
Where is this scripture?? Help please?

Antaiwan
 

[Kat]

Hi Antaiwan,

2 Kings 2:9  And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha, "Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?"  Elisha said, "Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me."
v. 10  So he said, "You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so."
v. 11  Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

God used a physical whirlwind to physically transport Elijah through the heaven/sky to another place.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

I know we are discussing Elijah here and to look at this through another scripture I found this. Where did the body of Moses go? Where did the body of Jesus go? They are all the same question.

Heb 11 : 5 Because of faith Enoch was caught up and transferred to heaven, SO THAT HE DID NOT HAVE A GLIMPSE OF DEATH.

This does not say that Enoch did not die. It says he did not have a GLIMPSE of death. He did not TASTE death. We have heard Jesus talk about this that some will not TASTE death. This does not mean that the Scriptures lie and that some will not die because all have to die but some will be transferred to heaven so that they will not have a glimpse of death and will be CHANGED in a twinkling of an eye when mortal shall put on immortality.

1 Thes 4 : 17 Then WE the living ones who remain on the earth shall simultaneously BE CAUGHT UP along with the resurrected dead, in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so always we shall be with the Lord.

How can anyone be with the Lord still dressed in carnal mortal flesh? Not possible! I too do not desire to see or taste death. Ugh!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[lorrie]

HI Arcturus,
What does glimpse death or taste death actually mean?I dont understand this.

[Deborah-Leigh]

They did not see it coming! They did not travail or anguish or suffer the effects of the approach of death. Can you imagine what this is going to be like for those still alive who will be caught up and changed in a twinkling of an eye? Without missing a beat, in the time it takes to blink, mortal corruptable flesh shall be transformed into the spirit of Christ to meet Him in the air! In a blink of an eye! .....From one Nana second to the next and EVERYTHING will NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN!

This is the hope of the faithful chosen. To be alive at His return! Those who anxiously, expectantly and joyously hope in His return.

Is 30 : 18 ...Blessed, happy, fortuante, to be envied are all those who earnestly wait for Him, who  expect and look and long for Him, for His victory, His favor, His love, His peace, His joy, and His matchless, unbroken companionship!

Heb 9 : 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them THAT LOOK FOR HIM shall He appear the second time.....

Peace to you

Arc

[mharrell08]

This does not say that Enoch did not die. It says he did not have a GLIMPSE of death. He did not TASTE death. We have heard Jesus talk about this that some will not TASTE death. This does not mean that the Scriptures lie and that some will not die because all have to die but some will be transferred to heaven so that they will not have a glimpse of death and will be CHANGED in a twinkling of an eye when mortal shall put on immortality.

Arcturus

Hello Arcturus,

I thought that when Jesus stated that some will not taste death that he was referring to the chosen? He only spoke in parables and all parables referred to "many are called, few are chosen" with each parable either referring to both or in some cases one group with the other group in opposite contrast.

When you say "he did not taste death", are you saying he did not experience the act of dying? Almost like one passing away in their sleep so they don't actually experience dying even though they are dead?


Marques

[winner08]

They did not see death coming? They would not taste death? Went up into heaven so they would not taste death? I don't get it. They have several ways of dying so quick that you don't even have time to realize that you died. I can understand that. to be taken up to heaven, is this scriptural? What does that mean? Maby get caught in a tornado and die in the air. I need help on this.

[Kat]

Hi Darren,

As you stated in your original post, Elijah did send a letter to King Jehoram after he was taken up in the whirlwind/tornado, so he was not dead.

2Ch 21:12  And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

God just used a natural means in the form of a whirlwind/tornado, in which to move Elijah from one place to another.  God is in control of all things and certainly He could have transported Elijah in a tornado safely, if that's what He wanted to do 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Akira329]

Hi Antaiwan,

2 Kings 2:9  And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha, "Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?"  Elisha said, "Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me."
v. 10  So he said, "You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so."
v. 11  Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

God used a physical whirlwind to physically transport Elijah through the heaven/sky to another place.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Thanks Kat!!! That help so much!!

I know we are discussing Elijah here and to look at this through another scripture I found this. Where did the body of Moses go? Where did the body of Jesus go? They are all the same question.

Heb 11 : 5 Because of faith Enoch was caught up and transferred to heaven, SO THAT HE DID NOT HAVE A GLIMPSE OF DEATH.

This does not say that Enoch did not die. It says he did not have a GLIMPSE of death. He did not TASTE death. We have heard Jesus talk about this that some will not TASTE death. This does not mean that the Scriptures lie and that some will not die because all have to die but some will be transferred to heaven so that they will not have a glimpse of death and will be CHANGED in a twinkling of an eye when mortal shall put on immortality.

1 Thes 4 : 17 Then WE the living ones who remain on the earth shall simultaneously BE CAUGHT UP along with the resurrected dead, in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so always we shall be with the Lord.

How can anyone be with the Lord still dressed in carnal mortal flesh? Not possible! I too do not desire to see or taste death. Ugh!

Peace to you

Arcturus

I thought Enoch was moved from one place to another. I'm not quite sure what your saying Arcturus???
The same with Elijah except scripture obviously says how he was translated or transported.
Gen 5:24  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Ray explained this as no one could find him.
Is this correct???

Antaiwan

[lorrie]

OH!I think ive got it now,you are reffering[sp?]to the ressurrection,right arcturus?

[Deborah-Leigh]

Yes! Absolutely Jaguar! 

We can not be born from above unless we are resurrected and fully redeemed not partially redemend, out of our carnal flesh and bondage to vanity!  That is why the second coming is SO IMPORTANT!

Rom 8 : 21 Because the creature itself also shall be DELIVERED from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION INTO THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD. ....23. And not only they, but ourselves alsowhich have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves GROAN WITHIN OURSELVES, WAITING FOR THE ADOPTION TO WIT, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY. !

Heb 9 : 28 Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, BUT TO BRING TO FULL SALVATION those who are eagerly, constantly, and patiently waiting for and expecting Him.

This is our HOPE which is also by God's design for us to experience and fully appropriate!

Rom 8 : 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in HOPE.


Akira329

Ray explained this as no one could find him, yes. Add this to the fact that the Scriptures are written for our admonition. What else can the Church NOT FIND? They too can not find unity! They too can not see the TRUTH. Jesus rebuked the leaders of the Church as being blind guides and white washed sepulchers, snakes and murderers like their father who has not truth in him from the beginning. Can we see this? Can we see that first the physical then the spiritual. First the seen then the unseen. Do we believe in what we can not see. Has the Spirit and the Truth become for us more real than the lie and the deception of blindness. I think this is what Ray's teachings have introduced to us all here who embrace and appreciate the light shining through the teachings brought via the Spirit of Truth and the mind of Christ to our once blind eyes, stubborn hearts and deaf ears.

Glory to God!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[mharrell08]

Yes! Absolutely Jaguar! 

We can not be born from above unless we are resurrected and fully redeemed not partially redemend, out of our carnal flesh and bondage to vanity!  That is why the second coming is SO IMPORTANT!

Rom 8 : 21 Because the creature itself also shall be DELIVERED from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION INTO THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD. ....23. And not only they, but ourselves alsowhich have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves GROAN WITHIN OURSELVES, WAITING FOR THE ADOPTION TO WIT, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY. !

Heb 9 : 28 Even so it is that Christ, having been offered to take upon Himself and bear as a burden the sins of many once and once for all, will appear a second time, not to carry any burden of sin nor to deal with sin, BUT TO BRING TO FULL SALVATION those who are eagerly, constantly, and patiently waiting for and expecting Him.

This is our HOPE which is also by God's design for us to experience and fully appropriate!

Rom 8 : 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in HOPE.


Akira329

Ray explained this as no one could find him, yes. Add this to the fact that the Scriptures are written for our admonition. What else can the Church NOT FIND? They too can not find unity! They too can not see the TRUTH. Jesus rebuked the leaders of the Church as being blind guides and white washed sepulchers, snakes and murderers like their father who has not truth in him from the beginning. Can we see this? Can we see that first the physical then the spiritual. First the seen then the unseen. Do we believe in what we can not see. Has the Spirit and the Truth become for us more real than the lie and the deception of blindness. I think this is what Ray's teachings have introduced to us all here who embrace and appreciate the light shining through the teachings brought via the Spirit of Truth and the mind of Christ to our once blind eyes, stubborn hearts and deaf ears.

Glory to God!

Peace to you

Arcturus

Oooooohhhhhh.....I see now...thanks Arcturus 

The same way Enoch was caught up into the air is a shadow of how the living will be "caught up" in the air in the 1st resurrection at our Lord's return. I see now, thanks again.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Here is what I understand so far.....I am so grateful for the insight via Ray that THE ELECT go through the second death! THAT IS A BLESSED REVALATION! THANK YOU RAY!!!

From Ray's latest Installment XV1 HELL Part E quote:

...individual Christians are being judged right now as we live, and that there is no judgment for us after we are resurrected. .... The rest of the dead are resurrected with physical bodies, back to physical life, to enter the SECOND  death, which will no longer hurt God's Elect.

Why should the second death no longer hurt the Elect?

Shadrach Meshach and Abed-nego who walked in the fire turned up seven times is a shadow of judgment on the Elect now. They had no attachments to physical worldly institutions of man and refused to bow to human idols. They disobeyed the king of the world and gave him no homage trusting their fate to God Himself. This was the right and proper thing to do not in the eyes of the worldly King but in the eyes of the King of Creation.

1 Peter 4 : 19 Wherefore let them that suffer ACCORDING TO THE WILL OF GOD, commit the keeping of their souls to Him in well doing,as unto a faithful Creator. This is EXACTLY what Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego did. Their lives earlier to this obedience made possible by the Spirit of God to provide us admonition,  was certainly one of trials, pains and sufferings which is the shadow showing the process though which they experienced all that the consuming fire of God that is a fire that purges out all earthly stubble. Before being cast into the fire they were already purged! For this reason they could walk with Christ and commune with Him much to the amazement of the onlookers looking at them walking in the fire. 

The LOF consuming fire of God does not burn or harm those who are to be received into the Kingdom of God at the return of Christ. Why? God will have already pruned off dependencies on carnal attachments and false hopes in deceptions through His purging fire and process of purification through tests trials and tribulations.

Notice what Ray highlights for us. Quote : ...the SECOND  death, which will no longer hurt God's Elect...Not because the elect do not go through the second death, but because they have been purified through it and it no longer harms them.

I am glad you are seeing the light mharrell08 

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Akira329]

Hey Arcturus I totally missed the types and shadow!!
I'm so glad you mentioned what you did!!! Thats amazing!!
I feel so blessed to be among you guys I almost feel like I don't deserve
to know these things about Gods word.

I had Shadrach Meshach and Abed-nego on my mind this afternoon too driving home from work!!
I was thinking about how they weren't burned by the fire.

I love this forum

[winner08]

Today is was discussing the 2ND death with a friend, and I stated that the elect wouldn't have to go through the lake of fire. Well I was wrong and I learned to night that this is not true. One again I thought I knew something it turns out I didn't. This is why I'm so sceptical when I hear people say I know this for a fact or I know that. I thought I knew all about the elect and the 2ND death. NOPE.


                               Darren

[joyful1]

Great explanations, Kat and Acturus--
I would just want to slip in this verse to clarify even further the connection with "types and shadows" for Akira:

Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

This verse was the turning point for me to see that indeed, the types and shadows were there all along!
joy and peace!
Joyce

[Samarnon]

Thanks Arcturus for this new insight that you have given me. When I was reading Ray's latest installment on Hell, I have some questions. You've outlined it well:

Here is what I understand so far.....I am so grateful for the insight via Ray that THE ELECT go through the second death! THAT IS A BLESSED REVALATION! THANK YOU RAY!!!

From Ray's latest Installment XV1 HELL Part E quote:

...individual Christians are being judged right now as we live, and that there is no judgment for us after we are resurrected. .... The rest of the dead are resurrected with physical bodies, back to physical life, to enter the SECOND  death, which will no longer hurt God's Elect.

Why should the second death no longer hurt the Elect?

Shadrach Meshach and Abed-nego who walked in the fire turned up seven times is a shadow of judgment on the Elect now. They had no attachments to physical worldly institutions of man and refused to bow to human idols. They disobeyed the king of the world and gave him no homage trusting their fate to God Himself. This was the right and proper thing to do not in the eyes of the worldly King but in the eyes of the King of Creation.

1 Peter 4 : 19 Wherefore let them that suffer ACCORDING TO THE WILL OF GOD, commit the keeping of their souls to Him in well doing,as unto a faithful Creator. This is EXACTLY what Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego did. Their lives earlier to this obedience made possible by the Spirit of God to provide us admonition,  was certainly one of trials, pains and sufferings which is the shadow showing the process though which they experienced all that the consuming fire of God that is a fire that purges out all earthly stubble. Before being cast into the fire they were already purged! For this reason they could walk with Christ and commune with Him much to the amazement of the onlookers looking at them walking in the fire. 

The LOF consuming fire of God does not burn or harm those who are to be received into the Kingdom of God at the return of Christ. Why? God will have already pruned off dependencies on carnal attachments and false hopes in deceptions through His purging fire and process of purification through tests trials and tribulations.

Notice what Ray highlights for us. Quote : ...the SECOND  death, which will no longer hurt God's Elect...Not because the elect do not go through the second death, but because they have been purified through it and it no longer harms them.

I am glad you are seeing the light mharrell08 

Peace to you

Arcturus

Thanks for the revelation. You really is full of God's wisdom.