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Author Topic: Check out this guy's heresy  (Read 9115 times)

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musicman

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Check out this guy's heresy
« on: May 17, 2008, 12:16:31 AM »

 
Why Would God Create a Person Who Would be Destined for Hell?

by Rich Deem

INTRODUCTION
       Christianity claims that God knows everything. The theological term is "omniscience." There are some implications of this doctrine that non-believers find troubling or even unacceptable to the concept of a loving God. If God knows everything, then He knows that some people whom He creates will end up in hell. Why would God create people who are destined for hell? It turns out that there are many unstated assumptions in this question, which are not valid for Christianity. A related question, "Why wouldn't God just create everyone to enjoy the glory of heaven?" will also be answered.

Destined for hell  Predestined for hell
       The first, and most prevalent, incorrect assumption is that a person who is destined for hell has been predestined for hell by God. This is false. People choose to go to hell rather than submit their lives to God. You have absolute free will within the confines of your personal ability. You can prove this to yourself. Determine two possible courses of action. They don't have to be big decisions, just any two possible actions. Assign each action to either "heads" or "tails." Flip the coin and do what whatever course chance decided. You can do this as many times as needed to determine that you do, indeed, have free will. Occasionally, do the opposite of what the coins tell you. Has God prevented you from doing anything? No!

God alone created you
       The second incorrect assumption is that God alone has created you. You are the product of choices made by your parents. Therefore, God has not predestined you to be born at all. How can you blame Him for creating you to send you to hell?

People destined for hell have no earthly purpose
       The third incorrect assumption is that a person destined for hell has no purpose in this life. This is also false. All people living have a purpose. Some people destined for hell will save other's lives, either intentionally or unintentionally. Others destined for hell will be helped, encouraged, and witnessed to by others who are destined for heaven. Those who follow God's plan are provided opportunities to help others in their spiritual path. If all people were on the same spiritual path, there would be nobody for God's people to help. God says that all are without excuse, so He provides witnesses of his plan to give them a chance to change their minds.

Rewards and punishment
       Another possible assumption is that the only purpose of this life is to choose to follow God or reject Him. This is also false. This life is used as a measure of reward and punishment. All who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior will go to heaven, but the amount of reward in heaven will be directly related to how closely each one followed God's will in his life. Likewise, all those who reject Jesus Christ will go to hell and will be punished to the degree of how much evil they committed in their life. This is why God allows people to make their own choices.

Why wouldn't God just create everyone to enjoy the glory of heaven?
       Skeptics might claim that God, in knowing all the choices a person would make, would not need to create all the people who would end up in hell. This question also has some underlying assumptions. The assumption is that since God knows all the answers, He would have no need of "running the experiment."

Just put the good people directly into heaven?
       The assumption that God could just put the good people directly into heaven seems to be valid for God, but has some problems when applied to humans. For some reason, skeptics leave themselves out of the equation. They want God to run the thought experiment and put those souls who would make the right choice (believe in Jesus Christ) directly into heaven and not even create those who would reject Him. The problem is that God would then be liable to the accusation of rewarding some people more than others, since reward is proportional to good deeds done in life. Since there was no real life, how could God hand out rewards? Should He tell people what they would have done and let them be content with that? How would those souls know anything about life, goodness, and doing the right thing if they had never lived before? God could be considered to be unjust, since His actions would not be based upon choices made by real characters. Would God just put those fake memories into their heads? If He did so, God would be creating deceptions, which contradicts His perfect character.
       When people think deeply about their "perfect" plan about what God "should have done," they realize that there are logical problems. What most people would create, as god, would be robots, since they would have no choice at all. Ever try loving your computer? It is not a very satisfying relationship. So it would be with the robots that skeptics would send directly into heaven.

CONCLUSION 
       The "problems" about the loving God of Christianity posed by the skeptics rests on invalid assumptions. Based on an invalid understanding of God's foreknowledge, they seek to avoid the consequences of their free will choice by offering a "solution" that violates the character of God. Therefore, the "solution" would not be a valid solution for the God of Christianity.
________________________________________
RELATED PAGES 
•   A Loving God Would Not Send Billions of People to Hell, Would He?
•   What will happen to the people who have never heard of Jesus Christ?
•   What Will Heaven be Like?
•   What Will Hell be Like?



Unbelievable!!
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Martinez

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2008, 01:24:46 AM »

The so much scripture being violated there that I'm not even going to bother refuting it.
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winner08

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2008, 05:52:12 PM »

I'm truly speechless.

               Darren
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chav

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2008, 06:28:39 PM »

Hi
I think this man should rename his site www.bible-untruths.com. He must have every erroneous doctrine available packed into his site, as Ray would say 'unbelievable'.
Dave UK
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Robin

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2008, 09:16:02 PM »

I think that would get a "brilliant!"
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KristaD

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2008, 12:21:40 AM »

Ok did anybody else laugh at the thought of this idiot flipping a coin to prove that he has free will?? ::)
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musicman

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2008, 12:22:50 AM »

Hi
I think this man should rename his site www.bible-untruths.com. He must have every erroneous doctrine available packed into his site, as Ray would say 'unbelievable'.
Dave UK

Actually, it's a decent Bible science website.  He broke off of Hugh Ross' site to form his own science and bible page.  However, he is scripturally clueless.  I have e-mailed him a couple of times, pleading for him to stick to the science that he seems to know.  He has not answered.  He even has a forum of which I was kicked off of after about 2 days.  This guy says that God did not specially create any of us, rather we are only the product of the choices our parents made.  But we still have free will to choose hell.
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cjwood

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2008, 01:20:03 AM »

i think it is a perfect time to say, "wrong pale face". in the words of senor smith.

claudia
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Roy Monis

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2008, 12:35:24 PM »

i think it is a perfect time to say, "wrong pale face". in the words of senor smith.

claudia


Hi! Claudia

No I think Senor Smith would prefer "Crazy Horse." Because that's what that man truly is.

God bless, enough of Rich Deem or is "Dream" matters not.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK    "The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 1Jn.4:8 
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Patrick

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2008, 02:17:57 PM »

This guy says that God did not specially create any of us, rather we are only the product of the choices our parents made. But we still have free will to choose hell.

My step dad, a deacon in a Baptist church, is of the same belief and will not accept any of Ray's teachings. I asked him if he ever read his Bible and did he believe anything he read? Conversation, which he started by asking me what I thought God was going to use this time to destroy the Earth, went bad at that point; he has not spoken to me since Christmas day 07' (my induction into the 'my name is mud' club  ;D). 
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kweli

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2008, 07:49:29 AM »

Good heresy-filled posting there musicman

Sorry to learn of that, Mud. Good thing He predicted that to happen  ;)

Sickening sometimes that people would rather learn of God from men's fable words and not God's Word.
Ok did anybody else laugh at the thought of this idiot flipping a coin to prove that he has free will?? ::)
That was funny. What cracks me up the most is when someone would tell you "Have you read Dr who and who's thesis? Have you read Mr who and who's in-depth study? Have you done any studying from great theologians work?". I know I have to repent of this but I cant help but think "HAVE YOU READ THE SCRIPTURES, DUMB-SHEEP".

May the Lord have mercy on all of us
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David

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2008, 10:26:12 PM »

Reads like a fairly typical Christian Church sermon to me. I'm not suprised or shocked at all, just saddened that this garbage is preached to millions and they believe it.
Its rubbish such as this that reminds me that we that know the truth should thank God every waking minute of the day for revealing it to us.
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jeetkunejimi

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2008, 12:05:11 PM »

Hi dude,

Quote:  "God says that all are without excuse, so He provides witnesses of his plan to give them a chance to change their minds".

Then just exactly how do they change their minds if God already knows their destined for hell!? And if they are gonna change their minds then they were never really destined for a mythical hell anyway. It's exactly that kind of double minded logic as you know already dude that got the church of Babylon where it is today. Thank God it's a lie. And thank God that Mr Deem will be forgive in time of his delusion, just we all will be. After all where did we get our strong delusion's from in the first place??? So much for phantom free-will. lol.

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Join me now in my new massive money making business venture, selling asbestos blankets only on Sundays at the exits of Orthodox churches. It's really gonna take off.

Falconn003

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2008, 05:15:16 PM »

Any time a writer uses assumptions, is a good indication to start bringing out the rolls of toilet paper for the fodder created of carnal minds.......

now too find that lava soap and wash out my eyes.....

Rodger
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Roy Monis

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2008, 08:49:15 AM »


Why Would God Create a Person Who Would be Destined for Hell?

by Rich Deem

INTRODUCTION
       Christianity claims that God knows everything. The theological term is "omniscience." There are some implications of this doctrine that non-believers find troubling or even unacceptable to the concept of a loving God. If God knows everything, then He knows that some people whom He creates will end up in hell. Why would God create people who are destined for hell? It turns out that there are many unstated assumptions in this question, which are not valid for Christianity. A related question, "Why wouldn't God just create everyone to enjoy the glory of heaven?" will also be answered.

Destined for hell  Predestined for hell
       The first, and most prevalent, incorrect assumption is that a person who is destined for hell has been predestined for hell by God. This is false. People choose to go to hell rather than submit their lives to God. You have absolute free will within the confines of your personal ability. You can prove this to yourself. Determine two possible courses of action. They don't have to be big decisions, just any two possible actions. Assign each action to either "heads" or "tails." Flip the coin and do what whatever course chance decided. You can do this as many times as needed to determine that you do, indeed, have free will. Occasionally, do the opposite of what the coins tell you. Has God prevented you from doing anything? No!

God alone created you
       The second incorrect assumption is that God alone has created you. You are the product of choices made by your parents. Therefore, God has not predestined you to be born at all. How can you blame Him for creating you to send you to hell?

People destined for hell have no earthly purpose
       The third incorrect assumption is that a person destined for hell has no purpose in this life. This is also false. All people living have a purpose. Some people destined for hell will save other's lives, either intentionally or unintentionally. Others destined for hell will be helped, encouraged, and witnessed to by others who are destined for heaven. Those who follow God's plan are provided opportunities to help others in their spiritual path. If all people were on the same spiritual path, there would be nobody for God's people to help. God says that all are without excuse, so He provides witnesses of his plan to give them a chance to change their minds.

Rewards and punishment
       Another possible assumption is that the only purpose of this life is to choose to follow God or reject Him. This is also false. This life is used as a measure of reward and punishment. All who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior will go to heaven, but the amount of reward in heaven will be directly related to how closely each one followed God's will in his life. Likewise, all those who reject Jesus Christ will go to hell and will be punished to the degree of how much evil they committed in their life. This is why God allows people to make their own choices.

Why wouldn't God just create everyone to enjoy the glory of heaven?
       Skeptics might claim that God, in knowing all the choices a person would make, would not need to create all the people who would end up in hell. This question also has some underlying assumptions. The assumption is that since God knows all the answers, He would have no need of "running the experiment."

Just put the good people directly into heaven?
       The assumption that God could just put the good people directly into heaven seems to be valid for God, but has some problems when applied to humans. For some reason, skeptics leave themselves out of the equation. They want God to run the thought experiment and put those souls who would make the right choice (believe in Jesus Christ) directly into heaven and not even create those who would reject Him. The problem is that God would then be liable to the accusation of rewarding some people more than others, since reward is proportional to good deeds done in life. Since there was no real life, how could God hand out rewards? Should He tell people what they would have done and let them be content with that? How would those souls know anything about life, goodness, and doing the right thing if they had never lived before? God could be considered to be unjust, since His actions would not be based upon choices made by real characters. Would God just put those fake memories into their heads? If He did so, God would be creating deceptions, which contradicts His perfect character.
       When people think deeply about their "perfect" plan about what God "should have done," they realize that there are logical problems. What most people would create, as god, would be robots, since they would have no choice at all. Ever try loving your computer? It is not a very satisfying relationship. So it would be with the robots that skeptics would send directly into heaven.

CONCLUSION 
       The "problems" about the loving God of Christianity posed by the skeptics rests on invalid assumptions. Based on an invalid understanding of God's foreknowledge, they seek to avoid the consequences of their free will choice by offering a "solution" that violates the character of God. Therefore, the "solution" would not be a valid solution for the God of Christianity.
________________________________________
RELATED PAGES 
•   A Loving God Would Not Send Billions of People to Hell, Would He?
•   What will happen to the people who have never heard of Jesus Christ?
•   What Will Heaven be Like?
•   What Will Hell be Like?



Unbelievable!!


Hi! musicman

Heck! What made me go and read that??? again? Can we not devote our time to discussing the beautiful True Good News instead of wasting it on reading such ??? there I go, I've gone and said it again.

Why can't we just do to him and his sermon what the pope did to the poor innocent dove.


PROBLEM SOLVED

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
 
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Akira329

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2008, 01:02:36 AM »

This is very sad, I used to think just like this.
This is exactly how I tried to make sense of it all.
It never quite worked out.

Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

CEO

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2008, 03:59:01 PM »

2 Peter 3:16 NIV

'... some things are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort,as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.'

Askseeknock

Charles
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indianabob

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy. He's is blind
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2008, 02:46:09 AM »

Folks,

It is important to remember that the so called ignorant and unstable people of whom we write, did not choose to remain this way.  Their minds have not been cleansed as ours have been although they may be later in this life.
So, we need to be patient and loving toward them.  They don't know that they are partially blind or that God keeps them that way until He is ready to use them.  We should be careful that we don't allow God's gift to lift up our prideful nature.

Also, allow me to define LIAR the way I use the word.  A person lies when they know that their words are in error and are misleading another person.  A person may repeat a lie or untruth and yet not be a liar so far as their conscience is concerned.  Deceived people do not know they are deceived until it is revealed to them and they see with new eyes.

Bob
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kweli

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2008, 07:37:04 AM »

Good point
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EKnight

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Re: Check out this guy's heresy. He's is blind
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2008, 11:58:45 PM »

Folks,

It is important to remember that the so called ignorant and unstable people of whom we write, did not choose to remain this way.  Their minds have not been cleansed as ours have been although they may be later in this life.
So, we need to be patient and loving toward them.  They don't know that they are partially blind or that God keeps them that way until He is ready to use them.  We should be careful that we don't allow God's gift to lift up our prideful nature.

Also, allow me to define LIAR the way I use the word.  A person lies when they know that their words are in error and are misleading another person.  A person may repeat a lie or untruth and yet not be a liar so far as their conscience is concerned.  Deceived people do not know they are deceived until it is revealed to them and they see with new eyes.

Bob


Amen to that Bob!!!!
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