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[Laren]

Reading Romans 1, and it seems these verses refer to alll men.   It seems that being turned over to our own deceitful heart only occurs after we have heard the truth and rejected it.  

Rom 1:18  for revealed is the wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness.


Rom 1:19  Because that which is known of God is manifest among them, for God did manifest it to them,

Rom 1:20  for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead--to their being inexcusable;

Rom 1:21  because, having known God they did not glorify Him as God, nor gave thanks, but were made vain in their reasonings, and their unintelligent heart was darkened,

Rom 1:24  Wherefore also God did give them up, in the desires of their hearts, to uncleanness, to dishonour their bodies among themselves;

Rom 1:25  who did change the truth of God into a falsehood, and did honour and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages. Amen.

Rom 1:26  Because of this did God give them up to dishonourable affections, for even their females did change the natural use into that against nature;

Rom 1:28  And, according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly;

Rom 2:1  Therefore, thou art inexcusable, O man--every one who is judging--for in that in which thou dost judge the other, thyself thou dost condemn, for the same things thou dost practise who art judging,


Seems God didn't harden our hearts till after we rejected the truth.  

The result of this is:

Rom 3:10  according as it hath been written--`There is none righteous, not even one;

Rom 3:11  There is none who is understanding, there is none who is seeking after God.

Rom 3:12  All did go out of the way, together they became unprofitable, there is none doing good, there is not even one.


So it seems to me, that all of us at one time (before being regenerated) had an opportunity to accept the truth, we all turned away from it, therefore God hardened our hearts, and therefore none who understand, noe seeking God.

Now if my understanding of this is true, when was this time we had the truth, but yet rejected it?

I've heard some say this isn't talking to us, that Paul was talking to the Jews who had accepted the gospel, then were going back under law, as in Galatians also.  I don't know if i buy this, because the verses in Romans 3 sure seem to support all men.  any thots on this??


Seems also to relate to this:  

2Th 2:10  and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,

2Th 2:11  and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,


And also here:

Heb 6:4  for it is impossible for those once enlightened, having tasted also of the heavenly gift, and partakers having became of the Holy Spirit,

Heb 6:5  and did taste the good saying of God, the powers also of the coming age,

Heb 6:6  and having fallen away, again to renew them to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.



Now, is there any scripture that states God has given man delusion, or turned man over to a deceitful heart without having knowledge first, and rejecting it?  


Just find these scriptures interesting, that God has given us all the truth at one time, yet we rejected it, so therefore he hardened our hearts.  

Am i looking at these wrong???  or not???


thanks.  Laren

[Laren]

Also wondering if there is a relationship to this verse

Rom 7:9  And I was alive apart from law once, and the command having come, the sin revived, and I died;


and maybe these

Jam 1:14  and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed,  (rejecting the truth??)

Jam 1:15  afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.





Jam 1:16  Be not led astray, my brethren beloved;

[orion77]

Laren, interesting post.  I can only speak from experience.  Years ago when God started working in my life, He gave me some great spiritual experiences, of which I have never heard of before, for I did not know His word at all.  Nonetheless, it happened and had to tell somebody.  Went to scores of churches, guess what, nobody wanted to listen.  Fact is, they kicked me out of several, some said I was possessed by a devil.  Needless to say this brought about much persecution, rumors and false accusations.  This was my first love and I fell away, because my house was built upon a sandy foundation, not properly founded upon the word of God and the Rock.  I must confess, before I fell away, God was very close.  The things He showed me are far beyond words, and I have learned to keep these between Him and me.  To be truthful, I miss that time.  Now it is by the grace of God and His mercy, and the truth in His Son, that I even exist.  Without Him I can do nothing, this was learned not only by reading the scripture, but through life experiences, which is where the truth is.


Rom 2:1
Wherefore, defenseless are you, O humanman! everyone *who is judging, for in what you are judging *differentanother, you are condemning yourself, for you *who are judging are committing the same things.

Rom 2:2
Now we are oaware that the judgment of *God is according to truth onagainst *those who are committing *such things.

Rom 2:3
Yet are you reckoning~ on this, O humanman, *who art judging *those committing *such things, and art doing the same, that you'  will be escaping~ the judgment of *God?

Rom 2:4
Or are you despising the riches of His *kindness and *forbearance and *patience, being ignorant that the kindness of *God is leading you intoto repentance?



Truth is, my worst sins were committed after the baptism of the Holy Spirit.  Now that He is in His proper place, if you know what I mean, things are much better.  I thank His great name, character, mercy, and forgiving nature more than you can know.  

But, you know, all these things have caused a greater understanding of His word.  I see myself in the Israelites of the OT.  I am no different than they are.  Still amazing how He is creating us in His image.  Incredible.

God bless,

Gary

[lilitalienboi16]

Well, one thing to remember is that, EVERYTHING IS OF GOD.

No matter what happens ITS HIM DOING IT. God controles everything. So if the person makes the choice to reject God, has not God controle of it? So is it not God allowing this person to reject Him? Therfore is it not also of God this delusion that causes them not to believe?

God says Hes the reason people believe a lie.

“And then shall that Wicked [‘Lawless One’—the beast within all of us] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan [It is not Satan, but is ‘after the 0working of Satan] with all power and signs and lying wanders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God [yes, God Himself] shall send them strong dilusion, that they should believe a lie [Gk: ‘the lie’]…� (II Thes. 2:9-11).

So i believe there is our answer... GOd does make people believe Lies. Remember Jesus words "You have not chosen me, I HAVE CHOSEN YOU"

[Laren]

Well, one thing to remember is that, EVERYTHING IS OF GOD.

No matter what happens ITS HIM DOING IT. God controles everything. So if the person makes the choice to reject God, has not God controle of it? So is it not God allowing this person to reject Him? Therfore is it not also of God this delusion that causes them not to believe?

God says Hes the reason people believe a lie.

“And then shall that Wicked [‘Lawless One’—the beast within all of us] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan [It is not Satan, but is ‘after the 0working of Satan] with all power and signs and lying wanders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God [yes, God Himself] shall send them strong dilusion, that they should believe a lie [Gk: ‘the lie’]…� (II Thes. 2:9-11).

So i believe there is our answer... GOd does make people believe Lies. Remember Jesus words "You have not chosen me, I HAVE CHOSEN YOU"

thanks for the reply, and I too agree the delusion is from God.  I just find it interesting the order of things, having known the truth first, known God first, choosing not to accept the truth, so then delusion from God.  

Rom 1:21 because, having known God they did not glorify Him as God, nor gave thanks, but were made vain in their reasonings, and their unintelligent heart was darkened,

Rom 1:24 Wherefore also God did give them up, in the desires of their hearts, to uncleanness, to dishonour their bodies among themselves;

Rom 1:28 And, according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly;

2Th 2:10 ... because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,

2Th 2:11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,


Is sure appears that the verses are saying we all know the truth, even if it is only through creation, and we all choose to reject it, so then because of that God sends strong delsion.  

I always thought it to be the other way around.  God sends strong delusion first, so that many won't believe the truth after they hear it.  Part of his plan, many called and few chosen; but sure seems these versed say different.  

Does anyone else see this in these verses??

[ertsky]

Hi Laren

these verses (in romans 1) remind me a lot of the many called

they are called but refuse to continue (abide, stay, remain) in the word consequently they are not abiding in the Word.

they are not enduring (staying under, staying with Christ) till the end. (to completion, maturity)

they have gladly recieved an initial calling but want to hear nothing beyond the milk and become easy victims of the world the flesh and the devil etc etc

this was my experience

when i was called it was wonderful but in babylon a lot of false doctrines and the flesh and self effort etc etc brought me low

when i was chosen i was so relieved and excited but i found my called brothers hated me (Christ in me) and would have none of the new found spiritual truth.

one brother hated the doctrine of suffering for and with Christ

another hated the doctrine that God would eventually reconcile all in Christ

these called friends of mine have had i think genuine revelation of Christ but refused to go on to maturity, it was as if they were deluded into thinking the milk was the meat.

i don't hold it against them of course (or rather Christ in me causes me to understand and forgive them they know not what they do)

so they knew God but i think they are in danger of losing even that which they have.

whereas to the chosen more is given as they remain in Christs word and spirit and consequently in Christ Himself.

and who is faithful but Christ Himself in us the hope of glory ? (praise His name He is faithful, King of kings Lord of lords, Lion of the tribe of Judah has prevailed)

he that endures (stays under, remains, abides in Christ) to the end (completion, maturity in Christ) the same shall be saved.

the called have not recieved a love for the truth (the whole truth, Christ, the sum of the word including chastening scourging and full identification with Christ in His fulness) thus declaring illegitimacy.

unto them it is not given

the chosen follow and keep on following Christ and go on to maturity

1Co 13:11  When I was a child, I talked like a child, felt like a child, reasoned like a child: when I became a man, I put from me childish ways.
1Co 13:12  For the present we see things as if in a mirror, and are puzzled; but then we shall see them face to face. For the present the knowledge I gain is imperfect; but then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
1Co 13:13  And so there remain Faith, Hope, Love--these three; and of these the greatest is Love.

Col 2:9  For it is in Christ that the fulness of God's nature dwells embodied, and in Him you are made complete,
Col 2:10  and He is the Lord of all princes and rulers.
Col 2:11  In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision not performed by hand, when you threw off your sinful nature in true Christian circumcision;

f

[Mark J.]

I can only speak from experience. Years ago when God started working in my life, He gave me some great spiritual experiences, of which I have never heard of before, for I did not know His word at all. Nonetheless, it happened and had to tell somebody. Went to scores of churches, guess what, nobody wanted to listen. Fact is, they kicked me out of several, some said I was possessed by a devil.

Wow Gary, this is overwhelmingly familiar to me.

I was on the verge of suicide when Jesus came and introduced Himself. I was going to say just in the nick of time, but we know that's garbage. It was at the PERFECT time.

The Lord would wake me in the middle of the night to show me His truths in the bible. Sometimes till dawn, but oddly enough, I never felt tired the following day.

I went to different churches like yourself, and as soon as I started talking about the things i had learned, much of it like what we see in Rays papers, I was ostrecised and people wanted to pray over me for deliverance from deceitful demons, blah, blah, blah.

Serious discouragement.

I don't know about you, but it took a few years of this before I threw in the towel and just slinked back into the world again.

Anyway, i found Ray's site by "accident" recently, and I'm slowly pulling it back together again.

Each of us is different I guess, and require differing degrees of spiritual maintenance at different times during our walk with God. The extremes of the maintenance obviously vary as well.

AN old friend of mine claimed he kept having a vision of me everytime we got together in those first days when I first was brought to Christ. He kept seeing a sword being forged. Taken out of the fire and hammered on and anvil, then being placed back in the fire. After a while he jokingly said it was getting annoying,as everytime we were in each others company he'd have the vision again. He just wants the sword finished so he can finally have a vision of something else... :lol:

I guess the lesson here is, if God's going to make a sword out of you, then be prepared for a hammering.

[Laren]

Hi Laren

these verses (in romans 1) remind me a lot of the many called

they are called but refuse to continue (abide, stay, remain) in the word consequently they are not abiding in the Word.

they are not enduring (staying under, staying with Christ) till the end. (to completion, maturity)

they have gladly recieved an initial calling but want to hear nothing beyond the milk and become easy victims of the world the flesh and the devil etc etc

this was my experience

when i was called it was wonderful but in babylon a lot of false doctrines and the flesh and self effort etc etc brought me low

when i was chosen i was so relieved and excited but i found my called brothers hated me (Christ in me) and would have none of the new found spiritual truth.

one brother hated the doctrine of suffering for and with Christ

another hated the doctrine that God would eventually reconcile all in Christ

these called friends of mine have had i think genuine revelation of Christ but refused to go on to maturity, it was as if they were deluded into thinking the milk was the meat.

i don't hold it against them of course (or rather Christ in me causes me to understand and forgive them they know not what they do)

so they knew God but i think they are in danger of losing even that which they have.

whereas to the chosen more is given as they remain in Christs word and spirit and consequently in Christ Himself.

and who is faithful but Christ Himself in us the hope of glory ? (praise His name He is faithful, King of kings Lord of lords, Lion of the tribe of Judah has prevailed)

he that endures (stays under, remains, abides in Christ) to the end (completion, maturity in Christ) the same shall be saved.

the called have not recieved a love for the truth (the whole truth, Christ, the sum of the word including chastening scourging and full identification with Christ in His fulness) thus declaring illegitimacy.

unto them it is not given

the chosen follow and keep on following Christ and go on to maturity

1Co 13:11  When I was a child, I talked like a child, felt like a child, reasoned like a child: when I became a man, I put from me childish ways.
1Co 13:12  For the present we see things as if in a mirror, and are puzzled; but then we shall see them face to face. For the present the knowledge I gain is imperfect; but then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
1Co 13:13  And so there remain Faith, Hope, Love--these three; and of these the greatest is Love.

Col 2:9  For it is in Christ that the fulness of God's nature dwells embodied, and in Him you are made complete,
Col 2:10  and He is the Lord of all princes and rulers.
Col 2:11  In Him also you were circumcised with a circumcision not performed by hand, when you threw off your sinful nature in true Christian circumcision;

f

Hi Ertsky, I agree that it sure seems like the verses in Romans 1 are in reference to the called rather than all mankind (sea), as the called do have a form of truth, and as you said, don't continue on/adhere to it in faith.  

This verse is interesting.  

Rom 1:32   who the righteous judgment of God having known -- that those practising such things are worthy of death -- not only do them, but also have delight with those practising them.   Rom 2:1   Therefore, thou art inexcusable, O man -- every one who is judging -- for in that in which thou dost judge the other, thyself thou dost condemn, for the same things thou dost practise who art judging,

Rom 2:2   and we have known that the judgment of God is according to truth, upon those practising such things.

It's as if to practice something, you have to realize that you are practicing it.  Like if my mom says don't eat cookies before lunch, and then you constantly do (practicing the sin).  

Interesting, Paul says he acted in ignorance (when he was slaughtering the church, prior to his conversion), so God showed him mercy.  The ones God hardens are those who know truth, and yet choose to continue practicing sin.    


1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.  

1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.  


It's as if you are sinning without knowing it, then God will show you mercy (if chosen), but if you sin willingly after knowing the truth, then God will harden you heart (called that don't move on to maturity).  

It really does to me seem to be related to when the law does it's work.  Until the law leads us to Christ (our tutor), we sin in ignorance (what I think Paul is calling, "being alive before the law, prior to knowing truth, living in ignorance"), but when the law does it's work (and we see our sin, and know what to do and not to do, what Paul says "when the command came i died") then we at that point need to start crucifying the flesh and law, and start daily relying on Christ living his life through us.  If we don't, then he hardens our heart.  


Rom 3:10   according as it hath been written -- `There is none righteous, not even one;

Rom 3:11   There is none who is understanding, there is none who is seeking after God.

Rom 3:12   All did go out of the way, together they became unprofitable, there is none doing good, there is not even one.

Are these verses referring to all mankind (sea) or the called??  In context of the first two chapters, it is everyone but only after they know truth, and then sin willingly (that is when God hardens their heart).  

Either way, it sure shows to me that moving onto maturity is only through God's mercy, not our effort.  

Thanks Ertsky and all for the posts.

Laren

[ertsky]

this verse is interesting

Rom 7:20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

this verse considered in the light of this verse

Joh 8:34  Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35  And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

this man of sin does not remain in the house (temple) into the age, but rather is going forth into perdition, at the resurrection we will be finally and factually delivered from the body of death, he that has this hope purifies himself even as He is pure.

the man of sin rendered impotent as we walk in the spirit and of course finally removed at our gathering together unto the Lord

the Son abides into the age, the new man being made in the image of Him who loves us.

what a day, first resurrection morning, when the body of death is finally left behind. until then the just shall live by His faith.

Gal 5:16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

so the way i see it is that, if God shows mercy, we will continue and remain in the Word, the doctrine of Christ, Christ Himself will be faithful in us and chasten and scourge every wicked word and work from us.

cleansing the temple as He is known to do

Mat 21:12  And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
Mat 21:13  And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Mat 21:14  And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.

all that is displeasing to Him He can destroy with the spirit of His mouth, if we endure to the end (till completion) if such is given us

otherwise it's the second resurrection and the lake of fire.

but for me i think also this verse speaks

Heb 6:9  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
Heb 6:10  For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Heb 6:11  And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

and in the verses you quoted i find

Rom 2:4  Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.
 

truly God works in us, i love these verses as well

2Ti 1:12  For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
2Ti 1:13  Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 1:14  That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

may God have mercy and allow us to pursue Him and apprehend that for which we are apprehended.

Isa 66:9  Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

i am constantly persuaded

Rom 8:32  He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

to me one thing is paramount

endurance, i must pray more for endurance

Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons.
Heb 12:9  Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

if i can find mercy and grace to stay under and not depart

Jos 1:7  Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest.

if by any means i may attain

Isa 55:3  Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Isa 55:7  Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isa 55:8  For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9  For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Psalm 136

Rev 1:17  And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

f

[orion77]

Laren and ertsky, great posts, beautiful insight and scripture.  

Mark J., I appreciate your response.  Yes, I had a long wilderness experience, fell away back into the world and forsook my first love.  But, by the working grace of God, He was not finished.  I was very rebellious and stiffnecked, although suffering from a lack of knowledge.  

The initial experiences God gave were out of this world, yet in this world.  Things I have never heard of before or even could imagine.  Yet true, and impossible to deny.  I feel just like the people in the OT, having witnessed first hand the miraculous hand of God and still rebellious.  This brought on much self condemnation, to say the least.  Over the years and much study and stumbling onto this site, Ray and Mike have opened up scripture that links it all together, for which I am very grateful.

God bless,

Gary

[lilitalienboi16]

I guess the lesson here is, if God's going to make a sword out of you, then be prepared for a hammering.

ROFL, AMEN! That is a nice way to put it, lol and kinda funy

Bob i know what you mean also bro, i had that problem too, but Thank the Lord im still so young and i didn't get to far into myself before He dragged me out, i just Pray He keeps that Meat coming and keep me focused and give me all the strenght i need to make it to the end of the finish line as an overcomer!