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Author Topic: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)  (Read 12743 times)

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winner08

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The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« on: May 20, 2008, 04:30:07 AM »

Hello everyone. My friend and I were discussing the Holy Spirit. She believes the Holy Spirit, Jesus and the Father are one. I said no. Then I said the Holy Spirit is God's power. I don't know if that's correct. Then I just was reading ray's teaching on payer. Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what we should prayfor as we ought,but the Spirit (Himself)makes intercession for us. The King James calls the Holy Spirit HIMSELF. What does that mean? HIMSELF. Does this mean the HOLY SPIRIT is an entity?  Like God or Jesus?A separate being. #1 God, #2 Jesus and #3 The Holy Spirit? I always thought of the Holy Spirit being a Spirit, God's power. That he imparts with our human spirit so that we may know these truths of God. Anyways, all help is appreciated.


                                            Thanks  Darren
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Robin

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2008, 04:42:12 AM »

This is from Is God a Closed TRINITY or an Open FAMILY?
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html

WHO, OR WHAT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT?

Jesus told His disciples in John 16:7:

"It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will NOT COME UNTO YOU; but if I depart, I will SEND HIM unto you."

Is this "comforter" the third God of a trinity? Let us see Who this Comforter really is! Didn’t you ever wonder why this Comforter could not come until Christ departed? The comforter does not come until Christ departs to the Father, because the comforter IS THE SON returning in the form of "spirit," "holy spirit." Jesus is saying to him,

"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).

"Now, whenever the consoler [comforter] which I shall be sending you from the Father..."

Notice that Christ sends the comforter from the Father and what Jesus instructs. And notice that it does not involve a third person of a fabled trinity:

"Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit of truth [Jesus said that HE is the Truth]--it will be guiding you in to all the truth, for it will NOT be speaking from itself [it is NOT A GOD], but whatsoever it should be hearing [from Whom sent it] will it be speaking, and of what is coming will it be informing you. That will be glorifying ME, seeing that of MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is MINE. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE IS IT GETTING, AND WILL BE INFORMING YOU." (John 16:13-15).

This is not hard to understand. The spirit of Truth is Christ. The comforter is Christ. The spirit will be speaking TO the disciples THROUGH Christ’s spirit which is His because the Father gave this spirit TO HIM! There’s no trinity here.

Jesus said:

"I will NOT leave you bereaved [comfortless], I am coming to you [in the form of the comforter and spirit of truth]" (Jn 14:18).

Now notice how clear Jesus makes this. Who or What is this spirit, holy spirit, holy ghost, spirit of truth, comforter? Is it really the third person of a triune God? Let Jesus Himself answer:

"IN THAT DAY [the day when the comforter comes] you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I IN YOU" (Jn 14:20).

"Now the consoler [comforter], THE HOLY SPIRIT, which the Father will be sending IN MY NAME, that will be teaching you all, and reminding you of all that I said to you" (Jn 14:26).

"I am going, and I AM COMING TO YOU" (Jn. 14:27).

JESUS CHRIST BY MEANS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD WHICH HIS FATHER GAVE TO HIM IS THE COMFORTER. THE GREEK PROVES THAT CHRIST IS THE COMFORTER!

In the Greek, the "comforter" or consoler is translated from parakleetos. Now, is there any Scriptural proof that Jesus Christ is called "parakleetos?" Yes there is. In I John 2:1 we read:

"And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just."

In the King James it says we have an "advocate" [with a small "a"]. King James ALWAYS capitalizes the Greek word "parakleetos," so why don’t they capitalize it here? You see, "advocate" or a better translation "Entreater" is translated from the GREEK WORD "parakleetos!"

HERE IS PROOF POSITIVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE "PARAKLEETOS!"

Isn’t is just amazing what we can learn when we just read and truth of God’s Word instead of the strange and unscriptural teaching of theologians?

No, God is not a trinity. Yes, God is a family. We can be members (Sons) of His Family, Brothers with Christ. What a marvelous plan God is bring about. Here then is the Gospel to all nations and all peoples everywhere:

"For since, in fact, through a man [Adam] came death, through a Man [Jesus Christ], also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, THUS ALSO, in Christ, shall ALL be vivified [given immortal life]. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ’s in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to HIS GOD AND FATHER, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power... The last enemy is being abolished: DEATH... then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be ALL IN ALL" (I Cor. 15:21-28).


These are from email.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6881.msg54902.html#msg54902

Dear Anner:  Jesus Christ was "conceived by the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 1:20). You say that the Holy Spirit is a person. That is unscriptural. If the Holy Spirit is a person, and Jesus was conceived BY THAT PERSON called the Holy Spirit, then Jesus would be "the Son OF THE HOLY SPIRIT."  But Jesus is nowhere called the Son of the Holy Spirit, but He is called "the Son OF THE FATHER"  (II John 1:3).  Every little school boy in the street knows that whoever conceives a child in a mother's womb IS THE FATHER of that child when it is born!  But not Christians, no, not Christians--Christians believe that one man can conceive a child and then when it is born it is the SON OF A DIFFERENT PERSON.  Give me a break. This is just one of the unscriptural foolish contradictions with the pagan theory of a triune god.  I will continue to believe the Scriptures.

    God be with you,

    Ray


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3514.0.html

    Dear Charles:
    Jesus is the Personification of the Holy Spirit (His SPIRIT FATHER living IN Him). Therefore, the Person Jesus is the "He and the Him," not the Spirit of God in Him. God the Father OWNS, if you will, His OWN Spirit. It belongs TO Him. IT is HIS. The Holy Spirit DOES NOT OWN GOD THE FATHER. Can you see and understand that? God HAS a spirit. The Holy Spirit DOES NOT HAVE A GOD, therefore, it is an IT, and not a HE or a HIM.   I have explained this many dozens of times on our site, but you are the second person today to ask this same kind of question. It is hard to rid ourselves of the Christian pagan doctrines of the Church.
    God be with you,
    Ray
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 05:00:16 AM by M.G. »
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jerreye

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2008, 05:24:07 AM »

If you notice in the KJV it says "ITself" - I believe this to be the correct rendering. However, using "Himself" would just be personifying the Father's Spirit anyway, so it doesn't really matter if it is "Himself" or "Itself". It is the power of God / spirit of God that "makes intersession for us".
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 06:57:19 AM by jerreye »
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winner08

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2008, 06:16:55 AM »

Yes jerreye: That's what I stated in my post. The King James Bible refers to The Holy Spirit as HIMSELF. If I understand M.G. The Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ (HIMSELF). I mean Jesus told the disciples after I'm going I will send the comforter. After Jesus goes back up to His Father He will send the comforter. So can't send them the comforter because He was still alive with His disciples. SEND being the word. I wonder if I understand M.G.

                                      Darren
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Robin

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2008, 03:37:44 AM »

I must admit that it confuses me also, Darren.

The part about the Father being spirit and also having a spirit goes right over my head. And now Jesus is spirit and shares the Father's spirit is also hard for me to understand. We have a spirit that gives us life and also the Spirit of God. That's a lot of spirits, lol.

I don't quite have this in my little box of understanding yet.
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winner08

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2008, 03:50:50 AM »

Yes M.G. That's alot  of spirits. Since Jesus Christ had to wait untill He returned to His Father before He could send the Holy Spirit back to his diciples I figure Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one in the same. I could be wrong.

                                                 Darren
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Robin

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2008, 05:12:12 AM »

This is what Ray said.

"JESUS CHRIST BY MEANS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD WHICH HIS FATHER GAVE TO HIM IS THE COMFORTER"

I think these verses fit with this.

John 17:20-22
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:


Ray said somewhere that the Father and Jesus are one because they both share the Father's spirit which I assumed was the holy spirit, but I'm not sure. I put it together that Jesus came as the comforter by means of that shared Holy Spirit. If we have that holy spirit within us then we have a deposit and not the fullness of the spirit yet.

2 Corinthians 5:4-6
4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

 6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.


That's how I pieced it together and it might be wrong.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 05:17:18 AM by M.G. »
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jerreye

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2008, 06:56:24 AM »

The "spirit" to me is simply like electric energy. The Father IS Spirit and He uses that very spirit to give physical life to us, the animals, etc etc. It's the same spirit (power) that impregnated Mary with Jesus. It isn't that there are "many spirits" (i.e. - many BEINGS at work), but rather one universal spirit that has countless functions, such as giving life, light, knowledge, power and understanding. The Father gave His spirit (power) to His Son, His angels and us. That spirit can do ANYTHING. He gives us a portion of that spirit in this life. He will give us the fullness of that spirit in the resurrection. That's how I see it.

Sorry for rambling :)
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Stevernator

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2008, 08:05:09 AM »

Hey Jerreye,
That makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for sharing that.
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Kat

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2008, 11:10:19 AM »


This is from the trasnscript 'WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER?'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html ----

Eph 1:3  “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…”

Phi 1:2  “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

Gal 1:3  “Grace to you and peace from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ,”

There is no Holy Spirit.  Not that the Holy Spirit is nothing or of no consequence, it’s just not a person. 
Jesus Christ and God the Father ARE the Holy Spirit!  Jesus Christ is that Spirit! 

John 16:7  “… I will send him(the Comforter) to you.” v. 15  “… He shall take of Mine, and shall show it unto you.”

What is He going to take of Christ?  His Spirit.  Where did Christ get that Spirit?  From God the Father.  But He is going to take of Christ, because it’s going to be the personality of Christ, see.  Paul didn’t say, I’m crucified with God, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but the FATHER lives in me.  No, it’s,  “I have been crucified with CHRIST, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but CHRIST lives in me.” (Gal 2:20)
But see it’s the personality of Christ, that is the spirit that lives in us.  And that spirit comes from God.  So we can call it God’s Holy Spirit, even though it’s channeled through Christ.  Jehovah /Elohim, God the Father(Elohim), you know. 
v
v
Jesus Christ IS THE GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT!
He is THE GOD OF THE BIBLE!
Jesus Christ is the ONLY REVELATION OF GOD THAT WE HAVE.
Even the Holy Spirit we all have comes from God THROUGH Jesus Christ.
Jesus is that Comforter, that Spirit.
Our Saviour and our Brother.
The Son of God.
------------------------------------------

I too am putting together these the little bit and pieces, trying to wrap my mind around the idea of what the Spirit is all about  :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2008, 03:36:08 PM »

Yes M.G. That's alot  of spirits. Since Jesus Christ had to wait untill He returned to His Father before He could send the Holy Spirit back to his diciples I figure Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one in the same. I could be wrong.

                                                 Darren

Hello Darren,

Consider the fact that if the holy spirit was a third entity equal with the Son and the Father and God itself, than why when Christ mentioned His relationship with the Father did He never once mention the holy spirit? If after all, it is as important as the church makes it out to be, that it is a god itself than should not Christ have mentioned it? OOPS? How about paul in all his opening letters to those he was writting. How did He open?

1 Corinthians 1:3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Holy spirit? WOOPS! Guess paul was a heretic? Haha. I speak as a fool! :)

Here's a parable from Christ. Notice the LACK OF the HOLY SPIRIT in this parable? Yet it describes Christs relationship with His Father the One God.

"I am the true Grapevine, and My father is the Farmer... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).

Could not the holy spirit have been the rain that waters the vine [Christ] or perhaps the dirt that the vine is planted in?

No holy spirit! :(

Anyway, we know that the holy spirit is Jesus Christ because the greek proves it. Ray shows this.

Jesus said:

"I will NOT leave you bereaved [comfortless], I am coming to you [in the form of the comforter and spirit of truth]" (Jn 14:18).

"IN THAT DAY [the day when the comforter comes] you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I IN YOU" (Jn 14:20).

"Now the consoler [comforter], THE HOLY SPIRIT, which the Father will be sending IN MY NAME, that will be teaching you all, and reminding you of all that I said to you" (Jn 14:26).

"I am going, and I AM COMING TO YOU" (Jn. 14:27).

Ray demonstrates here that the Holy spirit is indeed Christ in us by means of His Fathers spirit by using the greek to do it. Pay attention closely.

 the Greek, the "comforter" or consoler is translated from parakleetos. Now, is there any Scriptural proof that Jesus Christ is called "parakleetos?" Yes there is. In I John 2:1 we read:

"And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just."

In the King James it says we have an "advocate" [with a small "a"]. King James ALWAYS capitalizes the Greek word "parakleetos," so why don’t they capitalize it here? You see, "advocate" or a better translation "Entreater" is translated from the GREEK WORD "parakleetos!"

I pray this has helped any of you who are struggling with understanding of God's holy spirit!

God bless and love to you all,

Alex










« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 03:38:07 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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winner08

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2008, 11:45:47 PM »

Yes Alex. First let me say plainly that I DO NOT believe in a trinity. I also agree that if were so Jesus would have mention it. Just so theres no misunderstanding I do not believe in the trinity. I do believe in what Jesus Christ taught.


                                 Darren

PS thanks Kat and Alex.
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jerreye

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2008, 05:35:21 AM »

no problem Stevenator :)
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Roy Monis

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2008, 10:28:12 AM »

Yes M.G. That's alot  of spirits. Since Jesus Christ had to wait untill He returned to His Father before He could send the Holy Spirit back to his diciples I figure Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one in the same. I could be wrong.

                                                 Darren

Hello Darren,

Consider the fact that if the holy spirit was a third entity equal with the Son and the Father and God itself, than why when Christ mentioned His relationship with the Father did He never once mention the holy spirit? If after all, it is as important as the church makes it out to be, that it is a god itself than should not Christ have mentioned it? OOPS? How about paul in all his opening letters to those he was writting. How did He open?

1 Corinthians 1:3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Holy spirit? WOOPS! Guess paul was a heretic? Haha. I speak as a fool! :)

Here's a parable from Christ. Notice the LACK OF the HOLY SPIRIT in this parable? Yet it describes Christs relationship with His Father the One God.

"I am the true Grapevine, and My father is the Farmer... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).

Could not the holy spirit have been the rain that waters the vine [Christ] or perhaps the dirt that the vine is planted in?

No holy spirit! :(

Anyway, we know that the holy spirit is Jesus Christ because the greek proves it. Ray shows this.

Jesus said:

"I will NOT leave you bereaved [comfortless], I am coming to you [in the form of the comforter and spirit of truth]" (Jn 14:18).

"IN THAT DAY [the day when the comforter comes] you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I IN YOU" (Jn 14:20).

"Now the consoler [comforter], THE HOLY SPIRIT, which the Father will be sending IN MY NAME, that will be teaching you all, and reminding you of all that I said to you" (Jn 14:26).

"I am going, and I AM COMING TO YOU" (Jn. 14:27).

Ray demonstrates here that the Holy spirit is indeed Christ in us by means of His Fathers spirit by using the greek to do it. Pay attention closely.

 the Greek, the "comforter" or consoler is translated from parakleetos. Now, is there any Scriptural proof that Jesus Christ is called "parakleetos?" Yes there is. In I John 2:1 we read:

"And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just."

In the King James it says we have an "advocate" [with a small "a"]. King James ALWAYS capitalizes the Greek word "parakleetos," so why don’t they capitalize it here? You see, "advocate" or a better translation "Entreater" is translated from the GREEK WORD "parakleetos!"

I pray this has helped any of you who are struggling with understanding of God's holy spirit!

God bless and love to you all,

Alex













Hi! Brothers and Sisters.

I do notice with some alarm that the Holy Spirit is being referred to in small caps. I would just like to remind everyone that we are indeed not taking about a separate entity or the spirit of a created being but the very Spirit of our God and as such should be given due respect. Forgive me if I'm wrong but it grinds my very innards when I see such, unintentional though it be, irreverence. God the Father and God the Son two separate entities, but the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of our God, Father and Son , ONE GOD. To me the very essence of GOD. Please forgive me for this if I'm wrong. I expect this from Babylon but not from God's chosen.

God bless.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK      "The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 1Jn.4:8
 
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Craig

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2008, 11:39:23 AM »

Sorry Roy, but I disagree with you on this.  Not saying I'm right or you are wrong, I just don't feel this way.

I can talk of His spirit, God's spirit etc. and don't think I am belittling God at all.

What about the mind of God, should it be the Mind of God?  Should it be House of God or house of God? the Hand of God or hand of God?

I think you at least understand where I'm going with this.  I don't want to debate this with you as I stated I may be wrong but if so it is a fault that lies between me and the Father.

Craig

PS I would like to add if I was referring to "spirit" as a proper noun in reference to God I would capitalize it.  Such as I was led by the Spirit, or the Spirit is strong here etc.  But if I said I was led by the spirit of God I would not capitalize.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 11:44:45 AM by Craig »
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Roy Monis

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2008, 12:23:58 PM »

Sorry Roy, but I disagree with you on this.  Not saying I'm right or you are wrong, I just don't feel this way.

I can talk of His spirit, God's spirit etc. and don't think I am belittling God at all.

What about the mind of God, should it be the Mind of God?  Should it be House of God or house of God? the Hand of God or hand of God?

I think you at least understand where I'm going with this.  I don't want to debate this with you as I stated I may be wrong but if so it is a fault that lies between me and the Father.

Craig

Hi! Craig

I agree,brother, it's a case between each person and the Father. Problem settled.

God bless you.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK      "The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 1Jn.4:8

PS I would like to add if I was referring to "spirit" as a proper noun in reference to God I would capitalize it.  Such as I was led by the Spirit, or the Spirit is strong here etc.  But if I said I was led by the spirit of God I would not capitalize.
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Jackie Lee

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2008, 08:59:21 PM »

I had believed the Holy Spirit was the breath of God that gives life.
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mharrell08

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2008, 10:56:30 PM »

I had believed the Holy Spirit was the breath of God that gives life.


No, I don't think so because even animals have the breath of God or as some call it the spirit of life.

Remember, the OT patriaches did not have the Holy Spirit but obviously had the breath of life from God.
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Roy Monis

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2008, 08:02:36 AM »

The "spirit" to me is simply like electric energy. The Father IS Spirit and He uses that very spirit to give physical life to us, the animals, etc etc. It's the same spirit (power) that impregnated Mary with Jesus. It isn't that there are "many spirits" (i.e. - many BEINGS at work), but rather one universal spirit that has countless functions, such as giving life, light, knowledge, power and understanding. The Father gave His spirit (power) to His Son, His angels and us. That spirit can do ANYTHING. He gives us a portion of that spirit in this life. He will give us the fullness of that spirit in the resurrection. That's how I see it.

Sorry for rambling :)

Hi! jerreye

As Craig says it's a matter between each individual and the Father and that is how it should rest. The point I was making was this, God gives the breath of life to all His living creation, we humans also have that breath that makes us living beings. But now we have an additional Spirit the Spirit of the Father Himself which makes a big difference. It is this Spirit that is referred to as the Holy Spirit and as such demands due honour and respect from His children. “ A son honors his father, and a servant his master. Then if I am a father, where is My honor? And if I am a master, where is My respect?’ says the Lord of hosts to you, O priests who despise My name. But you say, ‘ How have we despised Your name?’"  (Mal.1:6).

God bless you my brother and help us in our walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
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winner08

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Re: The Holy Spirit, (HIMSELF)
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2008, 12:07:32 PM »

Roy I don't know if it right or wrong but I think I have always capitalize the Holy Spirit. I think it's just ingrained in me as I grew up in my early yrs. down south. We were taught always use Mr. and miss or Mrs. in front of an elder name, a sign of respect. Being the Holy spirit is of God and of Christ I never thought of it being any other way. the Holy Spirit it just automatic.

                                  Thanks Darren
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