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[keys2heaven]

I belong to another forum and the question of free will has come up over there. I've gone through Ray's papers on the myth of free will, but can't recall if he goes into the origin of it. When did the church first begin to use this myth? Was it to perpetrate the myth of hell? Was it to absolve God of being capable of creating evil and redirect this to man and Satan entirely?

It's funny (not) but all of the reposnses that people give for free will is basically the ability to chose and that mankind without free will is just a person who can do whatever they want without consequences.

I've tried presenting the truths found both in scripture and here....wow! Basically I was told that my belief in no free will meant that I was:

a) Juvenille
b) Looking for an excuse to do whatever without consequence
c) Denying the need for the cross
d) Denying the need for self-control

It also led to questions such as:

Why would God let Satan tempt man?
Why would God judge us?

And statements, such as:

Satan wasn't satan when God created him
We were made perfect
We chose (of our own free will) to sin in the Garden
That choices can be made free from influence

Now I understand just how brainwashed I was. 

Also, one additional question I have is what is meant by Gen 1:26 and God making us in His image. Many free will proponents state that since we were made in God's image and since God has free will that we must have free will. I know that this is not true, but I am curious as to what this scripture actually means. What is meant by 'image'?

[carol v]

Welcome to the forum keys.

Ray explains very well the aorist tense of verbs in Hebrew and Greek and a few literal translations do not use the past tense but the aorist tense. Your other forum may tell you that God "made" us into His image but the truth is that God is "making" us into His image. It is a long process. Listen to Ray's "How Hard is Getting Saved" for his explanation on how hard this is. It takes our entire lifetime and for most of us the lake of fire as well. And we don't really know if that is even the end of the journey.

By the way, Ray is not the only one that teaches about the aorist tense of the verbs so don't think that he went out and made it up. Search it out to prove it to yourself. Download the Concordant Literal and Young's Literal for your esword as well.

The truth of God's sovereignty and our lack of free will is probably the hardest thing to understand. I have a 15 page document of scriptures I was shown by Ray and others all proving God's sovereignty. It is nothing but scriptures or I wouldn't offer it to you on the site. You can email me if you'd like a copy.

There are many verses that describe God so we would certainly have to have all of those qualities. But exactly what God's image is...well, that's just hard to fathom.

Joe 2:13  And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

I also think He must have a great sense of humor, an eye for a beautiful sunset and a love for funny little creatures like my pugs -- among a million other things.

My own advice to you though is to diligently study all of the writing on the site and keep out of discussions on your other forum in the meantime. You need to have a firm grasp of the subject before you can discuss it or you will be overwhelmed.

Carol

[carol v]

One more thing keys, as Craig our moderator said in another thread I just read ... there are no shortcuts. You must spend a year or two minimum studying and reading everything of Ray's and throw in some Andrew Jukes for good measure before you will have a firm grasp. And please, please, please don't forget the prayer and reading of your Bible.

[keys2heaven]

Thanks Carol for the advice.

I just want to make a difference. I used to believe in free will and want to be used by God to open other's eyes to these false teachings. I'll be honest, it hurts when other Christians mock you and tell you how you have no faith or despise the Word of God because you don't believe in free will.

My first exposure to this was opening my mouth (when I first came to this site and was reading Ray's material) at a small group gathering we had with members of our former church one Sunday evening. The topic was free will and the Garden of Eden story came up. I suggested that we had no free will and that Eve sinned before ever taking a bite beause of our desire to sin from being created spiritually weak. People that I knew from church for almost 5 years became very mad with me. After all I was going against a tennet of the faith, a cornerstone of church doctrine.

I felt like I had done the wrong thing and almost, almost regretted saying what I said. One woman present that night was pregnant and I thought she was going to go into labor from the shock of what I said. But, I knew that what God had allowed for me to discover was not wrong. But, it still hurt. I no longer attend that church, much to my wife's disapproval who believes we should be in a church.

From what I understand, mankind has wrestled with the concept of free will or free moral agency for over two thousand years. Why has this concept become so prevalent and not a concept that God is in complete control who will SAVE ALL.

[carol v]

Hi again Keys. Amos 3: 3-7 will show you that not only is God in control of everything but this is a secret that only His servants understand. You should do a search on the forum because there are many, many threads about free will.

Your experience with your former church is very common. Their doctrines are not even logical but they love them anyway. I had many of these discussions with people before I gave it up. I was told by a close friend that I was listening to Satan on the internet simply because I was trying to make her see that when we are dead we are asleep, not immediately with God. I still love this friend but I no longer discuss these things with her. You cannot open the eyes of others. And I have had many, many conversations with others in the same vein where I've been called names and treated like a pariah.

My solution now is to simply tell the Good News that Christ saves us all whenever God gives me the chance while avoiding debates that can't be won. Be ready with an answer by studying but there's no need to get in debates over dinner with people who won't listen. But you may have to do it a few times before you can see that for yourself -- I did. And my boyfriend has come to see the truth of God's sovereignty and the hell doctrine but he is still in church too. These conflicts are just a part of the journey.

Blessings in your study!
Carol

[Rene]

Their doctrines are not even logical but they love them anyway.

Carol

Hi Carol,

I especially needed to be reminded of the statement you quoted above, because today I will be spending time  with relatives who are deep into the church, and I do not desire to get into any scriptural debates with them.

Infact, your entire reply has been very helpful to me.  Thanks!

René

[carol v]

Glad I could be of help Rene. Just enjoy your relatives. Have a great weekend.

Carol

[David]

The origin of free will comes from the originator of all lies, the devil.  John 8:44  You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

In Genesis 3:4 we have the first lies ever recorded in the scriptures. Gen 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil”

I've highlighted and underlined Satans words in verse 4, because everything he says here is a pack of lies, but there is some truth mixed in verse 5. YET, the Church believes every single word of verse 4. The first lie, you will not surely die. Did Adam die? Yes he did, and so did Eve. Genesis 5:5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.
Did they become like God as satan had said? according to Gen 3:22, yes. Gen 3:22  Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. Both God and satan say that Adam and Eve KNEW good from evil, its not said here that either of them CHOOSE good or evil. The Church argues that Eve chose to eat of the tree, that she could have decided not eat of it. When God asked Eve what she had done, she answered that the serpent had deceived her. God did not say that he didn't accept her explanation for her sin, that she CHOSE to sin. No, God straight away cursed the serpent before he punished Adam and Eve.
The whole premise behind us having this supposed free will as far as the Church is concerned is that we are all able to choose between good and evil, it upholds their vile doctrine of eternal hell. If we are not free to choose between good and evil, then how can they say that hell is just and fair (as if having free will takes care of it).
Even though we may know good and evil, do we choose good from evil? Not according to Psa 14 and Romans 3. Rom 3:10 “ There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”

The Church believes that we will not surely die, they believe we have immortal souls. The Church believes we have free will and free moral agency to choose between good and evil, that the only way we "get saved" is completely by ourselves with no influence whatsoever, we choose to accept Jesus Christ as our savior etc. So according to the Church when God said to Adam that he would die, God was lying. When satan said he would not sure die, he was telling the truth. According to the Church when Jesus Christ said that the devil is a liar and the father of it, He was lying.According to the Church when Paul quoted Psalms 3 in his Epistle to the Romans and said that   There is none who seeks after God. and There is none who does good, no, not one, he was lying too.
As Ray said in his talk on free will, if we have it then why has it been a 100% failure according to Romans 3 so far? If we're free to choose between good and evil without Divine intervention from God, how come according to scripture no one ever has?
I'd actually go further than Ray in his condemnation of this damnable heresy. I'd hazard a guess that very few if any in the Church have ever considered this thought. If we do indeed have free moral agency and free will, and those that use it wisely go to heaven and those that don't go to hell, then what they are saying is we don't actually need a savior, we can save ourselves. By teaching and believing they have this false free will, its just another heresy that demotes God and Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior in their minds.

[kweli]

Amos 3: 3-7 will show you that not only is God in control of everything but this is a secret that only His servants understand.

That is one of the many great passages/verses that just bulldozes the free will idol to damnation. Another one to add to my "Free Will Your Way Out Of This" notes.

Great Scriptural observation there David