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Origin of free will

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keys2heaven:
I belong to another forum and the question of free will has come up over there. I've gone through Ray's papers on the myth of free will, but can't recall if he goes into the origin of it. When did the church first begin to use this myth? Was it to perpetrate the myth of hell? Was it to absolve God of being capable of creating evil and redirect this to man and Satan entirely?

It's funny (not) but all of the reposnses that people give for free will is basically the ability to chose and that mankind without free will is just a person who can do whatever they want without consequences.

I've tried presenting the truths found both in scripture and here....wow! Basically I was told that my belief in no free will meant that I was:

a) Juvenille
b) Looking for an excuse to do whatever without consequence
c) Denying the need for the cross
d) Denying the need for self-control

It also led to questions such as:

Why would God let Satan tempt man?
Why would God judge us?

And statements, such as:

Satan wasn't satan when God created him
We were made perfect
We chose (of our own free will) to sin in the Garden
That choices can be made free from influence

Now I understand just how brainwashed I was.  :)

Also, one additional question I have is what is meant by Gen 1:26 and God making us in His image. Many free will proponents state that since we were made in God's image and since God has free will that we must have free will. I know that this is not true, but I am curious as to what this scripture actually means. What is meant by 'image'?

carol v:
Welcome to the forum keys.

Ray explains very well the aorist tense of verbs in Hebrew and Greek and a few literal translations do not use the past tense but the aorist tense. Your other forum may tell you that God "made" us into His image but the truth is that God is "making" us into His image. It is a long process. Listen to Ray's "How Hard is Getting Saved" for his explanation on how hard this is. It takes our entire lifetime and for most of us the lake of fire as well. And we don't really know if that is even the end of the journey.

By the way, Ray is not the only one that teaches about the aorist tense of the verbs so don't think that he went out and made it up. Search it out to prove it to yourself. Download the Concordant Literal and Young's Literal for your esword as well.

The truth of God's sovereignty and our lack of free will is probably the hardest thing to understand. I have a 15 page document of scriptures I was shown by Ray and others all proving God's sovereignty. It is nothing but scriptures or I wouldn't offer it to you on the site. You can email me if you'd like a copy.

There are many verses that describe God so we would certainly have to have all of those qualities. But exactly what God's image is...well, that's just hard to fathom.

Joe 2:13  And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

I also think He must have a great sense of humor, an eye for a beautiful sunset and a love for funny little creatures like my pugs -- among a million other things.

My own advice to you though is to diligently study all of the writing on the site and keep out of discussions on your other forum in the meantime. You need to have a firm grasp of the subject before you can discuss it or you will be overwhelmed.

Carol

carol v:
One more thing keys, as Craig our moderator said in another thread I just read ... there are no shortcuts. You must spend a year or two minimum studying and reading everything of Ray's and throw in some Andrew Jukes for good measure before you will have a firm grasp. And please, please, please don't forget the prayer and reading of your Bible.

keys2heaven:
Thanks Carol for the advice.

I just want to make a difference. I used to believe in free will and want to be used by God to open other's eyes to these false teachings. I'll be honest, it hurts when other Christians mock you and tell you how you have no faith or despise the Word of God because you don't believe in free will.

My first exposure to this was opening my mouth (when I first came to this site and was reading Ray's material) at a small group gathering we had with members of our former church one Sunday evening. The topic was free will and the Garden of Eden story came up. I suggested that we had no free will and that Eve sinned before ever taking a bite beause of our desire to sin from being created spiritually weak. People that I knew from church for almost 5 years became very mad with me. After all I was going against a tennet of the faith, a cornerstone of church doctrine.

I felt like I had done the wrong thing and almost, almost regretted saying what I said. One woman present that night was pregnant and I thought she was going to go into labor from the shock of what I said. But, I knew that what God had allowed for me to discover was not wrong. But, it still hurt. I no longer attend that church, much to my wife's disapproval who believes we should be in a church.

From what I understand, mankind has wrestled with the concept of free will or free moral agency for over two thousand years. Why has this concept become so prevalent and not a concept that God is in complete control who will SAVE ALL.

carol v:
Hi again Keys. Amos 3: 3-7 will show you that not only is God in control of everything but this is a secret that only His servants understand. You should do a search on the forum because there are many, many threads about free will.

Your experience with your former church is very common. Their doctrines are not even logical but they love them anyway. I had many of these discussions with people before I gave it up. I was told by a close friend that I was listening to Satan on the internet simply because I was trying to make her see that when we are dead we are asleep, not immediately with God. I still love this friend but I no longer discuss these things with her. You cannot open the eyes of others. And I have had many, many conversations with others in the same vein where I've been called names and treated like a pariah.

My solution now is to simply tell the Good News that Christ saves us all whenever God gives me the chance while avoiding debates that can't be won. Be ready with an answer by studying but there's no need to get in debates over dinner with people who won't listen. But you may have to do it a few times before you can see that for yourself -- I did. And my boyfriend has come to see the truth of God's sovereignty and the hell doctrine but he is still in church too. These conflicts are just a part of the journey.

Blessings in your study!
Carol

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