bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Forum related how to's?  Post your questions to the membership.


.

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Paradise  (Read 5640 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

EKnight

  • Guest
Paradise
« on: June 04, 2008, 01:29:52 AM »

I hope no one is annoyed with my constant questions but I just want it all to be correct in my head.  I was having a conversation with my sister the other night and I was telling her that all the dead are asleep awaiting judgment and that no one is in heaven or with God yet.  She then quoted me: Luke 23:43 KJV "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Hmmm, what to say to this? I have not read anything here on that scripture as of yet.  Is there something? 

I thought maybe Jesus was saying as of this day or as of this moment in time, you have secured a place in paradise.

Anyone?

Eileen
Logged

Robin

  • Guest
Re: Paradise
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2008, 01:46:42 AM »

Here is one of Ray's emails on the subject.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,979.0.html

Hello Ray:
 
I have E-mailed you a few times over the last couple of years and you have always been gracious enough to reply.
 
I was telling a Christian Lady Friend of mine that when you die...you are DEAD and await judgement day and at some point will THEN go to Heaven and that you do not automatically go to Heaven when you die (Hey, am I hired?!)
 
She brought up the thing Christ said on the Cross. I DID read your reply to this question you sent a reader awhile ago. I must admit that if I was standing there on the Mountain while Christ was crucified and I HEARD him utter "Today You shall be with me in Paradise" the first thing that would come to my mind would NOT be a debate on where the comma should be placed...I would take Christ at his Word. Secondly, Christ DID use the word "Paradise". My questions are two-fold..... If "Paradise" does NOT mean "Heaven", than what does it mean?.....and # 2 why then DID Christ use the term "Paradise"? With most of your writings I feel you are 100% right-on....but I must admit I am "not seeing the light" on this issue. In your reply to the reader I mentioned you seem to fluff over the whole issue of "Paradise" and talk about other matters (and I agree with your logic...to the point where I irritate my men's group and they say I should stop reading your Web site! !!) . I must admit what happens to one when you die still bothers me a bit.....I want to agree with you but then again Christ clearly says NO man is good...so the ultimate judgement is that NO man passes...so once again it is left to Christ's Grace saving mankind (in which case why the delay in joining him?).   
 
Help!
 
Scot
 

Dear Scot:
I would think that no less than 50 times over the years, I have said that I will (some time in the FUTURE) write a paper on this. This is NOT a priority with me. There are many more important subjects that I mujst write on before I do a paper on this subject. If a short 3 or 4 sentence answer is all that is needed, I would have done that already in the dozens and dozens of emails I have received on this question over the years.
 
It is not kosher to quote half of a verse when it has a larger context.   Jesus did not begin a sentence with: "TODAY you shall be with me in paradise," did He?  No, Jesus said: "Verily I say unto thee TODAY shall you be with Me in paradise."  But even that is King James translating, and King James is not inerrant.  Notice how the great scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham renders this verse:  "Verily I say unto thee this day:  With me shalt thou be in Paradise."  But as a footnote he suggests that "This day with me shalt...." as a possibility. So what's the solution?  God tells us how to solve this Verse and every other verse of Scripture:  "That no prophecy of scripture becomes self-solving" (II Pet. 1:20, Rotherham), "That no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its OWN explanation" (Concordant LNT).
We must go to other Scriptures to explain what is mean by this Scripture.
 
But is this what theology does?  No, theologians say this this verse EXPLAINS ITSELF--"That VERY DAY the thief when with Christ TO HEAVEN."  Oh really?  That is not what the REST of the Bible teaches.
 
DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that?  Is there any Scriptural justification for that?  NO, no there isn't.  In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis to heaven?  Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures.  "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."
 
There is the mention of only two primary "gardens" in Scripture: The "tree of life" (Gen. 2:9) is found in Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:9).  And what else is that Garden of Eden called?  Answer: "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God" (Rev. 2:7).
 
[1]  The "Garden of Eden."  Was that garden, "heaven?"  What did we find in that garden:  (1) the knowledge of EVIL, (2) rebellion and SIN, (3) a flaming SWORD, (4) the pronouncement of CURSES, and (5) the lying SERPENT (Satan--Rev. 12:9).
 
[2]  The "Garden of Gethsemane."  Was that garden "heaven?"   What did we find in that garden?  (1) The Apostles DESERTED Jesus in this garden,  (2) Judas BETRAYED Jesus in this garden, (3) an army of wicked elders, scribes and chief priest with clubs and SWORDS, (4) Jesus is carried away from this garden to be CRUCIFIED, and (5) This garden contained the TOMB in which the DEAD Jesus was placed.
 
Do any of this evils in these two paradise gardens sound like "heaven" to you?   I don't care if there are NO commas in Luke 23:43.  Commas do not make or break the Scriptures of God.  This verse does not contradict hundreds and hundreds of other Scriptures as the Church teaches it does.  That day, "today," both Jesus AND the thief, DIED AND THEY WERE DEAD
 
This is a large subject involving the different resurrections, and the Judgments of God. It will take a sizable paper to cover it properly and I cannot do it now. Hope you understand.
 
God be with you,
Ray
Logged

carol v

  • Guest
Re: Paradise
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2008, 01:51:07 AM »

Yes Eileen...it is simply a matter of a comma. Greek doesn't use commas and translators put it in the wrong place.

This:

Luke 23:43 KJV "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Should be this:

Luke 23:43 KJV "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise."

It was promise Christ made that day -- today. And ALSO -- Christ was in the grave Himself and not resurrected for 3 days so that would make Him a liar!

Carol
Logged

Robin

  • Guest
Re: Paradise
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2008, 01:56:45 AM »

Here is another.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6936.0.html

Dear Harris:  I do not mean to put a kink in your armor, but I will give you just a little instruction on one of your major premises:

"Lu:23:42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. The thief was asking Jesus to remember him when he came into or established his kingdom {The millennial reign} and notice the unexpected answer he received.

Lu:23:43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. He said today, not tomorrow or a thousand years from now but that today he would be with him in paradise. Now your answer would normally be ‘oh yeah’ when we die we will be with him..."
 
If this verse of Scripture is true according to your interpretation, then it contradicts most of the major teachings in the entire Bible concerning, repentance, overcoming, producing much fruit, enduring to the end, and resurrection of the dead.  One cannot pervert the entire Word of God by merely misplacing a comma (,).  Here are better renderings of Luke 23:43:

"And Jesus said to him, 'Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise.'" (Concordant Literal New Testament).

"And he said unto him—Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise" (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible).

Even you gave Scripture showing that the wages of sin is "DEATH."  Why do you then deny it in your paper.  "Jesus DIED for our sins according to the Scriptures."  He was not merely "crucified for our sins."  No, HE D-I-E-D. And when people DIE, Harris, they are DEAD. I can't believe that it would be necessary for me to provide a Scripture to prove such an elementary concept, but I will:

Jos 1:1 Now after the DEATH of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying, Jos 1:2 Moses My servant is DEAD..."
Well there you have from God Almighty Himself.  When a person DIES, he is DEAD.  So when you change that to some other unscriptural nonsense, you are treading in dangerous territory.  Jesus was NOT in the Christian hell of eternal torture, nor was He preaching to spirits in some pagan hell, neither was he in a place called "paradise."  Jesus was doing in the tomb exactly what He was prophesied to do and what He was commissioned to do by His Father--He died, and was therefore DEAD, until His Father Resurrected Him FROM THE DEAD.
Jesus' Father did not resurrect Jesus of Hell or from Paradise.  Jesus was DEAD in the tomb until early Sunday morning, and so was the thief DEAD.
 
Now the difference between these two deaths is that Jesus was resurrected from the dead, but the thief was NOT--he is still dead, awaiting resurrection.  If Jesus was not DEAD when He DIED for our sins, then you don't have a Saviour, Harris! And neither does anyone else!  This is mighty important stuff you are contradicting in your paper.  Do you not pay attention to the many hundreds of Scriptures that refute you paper?....

Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that He rose from the DEAD, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
Harris:  If Jesus "rose from the DEAD" how say you that He was NOT EVEN DEAD TO BEGIN WITH?  If Jesus "rose from the DEAD" how say you that
that there is no resurrection of the the DEAD THIEF," but that he is presently LIVING in a place called "paradise?"
 
I am sorry I don't have time to critique your entire paper, but I receive many requests to read hundreds and thousands of pages of papers, books, Internet sites, etc., but I just am not able. So I cannot comment on your entire paper. However,  I hope my little critique on this one point does not anger you.
God be with you,
Ray
 
PS   Another minor point:  The thief did not ASK to be with Jesus in Paradise, did he?  NO, he did not. He asked Jesus to "remember him when Jesus came in His kingdom."  Now then, Did Jesus say, "Yes, of course, I tell you that TODAY you with be with Me in My kingdom?'  Did Jesus answer Him thus?  NO.  Well what in the world then did Jesus mean that the thief would be with Him [at some future date, not "today," but "shall be with Me," which is future tense] "in paradise?"  Ah, that is the subject of one of my upcoming papers, and it is about as far removed from the Christian teaching and your teaching as anything could be.
Logged

EKnight

  • Guest
Re: Paradise
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2008, 02:37:44 AM »

One cannot pervert the entire Word of God by merely misplacing a comma (,).  Here are better renderings of Luke 23:43:

I don't care if there are NO commas in Luke 23:43.  Commas do not make or break the Scriptures of God.

The above two statements are by Ray in response to emails (posted by MG in Reference to my question).  So yes Carol I can see how the comma can make a difference but that isn't what Ray said to his emailers.

Ray also says to these emailers that Paradise is not Heaven.  Then what was Jesus referring to when He said paradise?

And when I showed these replies to my husband and I told him that Jesus was dead in the tomb for three days so how could it mean that he (the thief) would be in paradise on that same day?  My husband said but what about his soul? 

I'm sure these questions have been asked and answered and believe me I have been reading on this site for months but again, I haven't come across the answers (or maybe I don't recall).

sorry,
Eileen
Logged

Robin

  • Guest
Re: Paradise
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2008, 03:49:41 AM »

This will answer your question about the soul.

http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm

BODY

When a man dies his body (if not disintegrated) goes into a grave or tomb (Jn. 11:38) where within a few days it begins to smell and decompose (Jn. 11:39), and it returns [Heb. shub] to the dust of the ground from which it was taken (Gen. 3:17-19, Job 10:9, Psa. 9:17, etc., etc). The "person" is said to be where the "body" is and the "person" is resurrected from the place where the body is (Mat. 28:6). Only in a figurative or symbolic sense does a "body" ever go to sheol (Jonah 2:2). Jonah was not "literally" in hell [sheol], but in the fish, and besides he didn't even die. I'm sure Jonah's loss of perception inside the fish resembled his knowledge of the word "sheol."

SPIRIT

When a man dies his spirit returns to God Who gave it (Lk. 23:46, Psa. 104:24-30). The "spirit" is never said to go to hades or sheol, and the "soul" is never said to go to Heaven at death. Men and beasts have the same spirit [ruach] and they go to the same place (Ecc. 3:18-21). There is no getting around this: when God takes away a living soul's spirit, it always dies. The spirit "gives life." No one can live without "spirit," no matter how young and healthy he may be. There are no exceptions. If there are, where is the Scripture? A dead person cannot experience anything-not pleasure in Heaven or pain in a fabled hell. This is a serious thing. Rom. 14:23 says: "Now everything which is not out of faith is sin." If one doesn't have Scriptures that show people go to eternal hell fire after death, then it is a sin to teach it.

SOUL

When a man dies his soul goes to the unseen or imperceptible [Gk: hades, Heb: sheol]. We also know that when man is in this condition (dead) it is likened to "sleep" (Psa. 13:3, Dan. 12:1-2, Jn. 11:11-14). God Himself likens death to sleep,

"The Lord said unto Moses [concerning his imminent death], Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers ... " (Deut. 31:16)

This is substantiated by the fact that:

"The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" (Ecc. 9:5,6).

Again:

" ... for there is no work, nor device [contrivance, intelligence, reason], nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in sheol." (Ecc. 9:10).

Do we think all of these Scriptures lie? According to what we just read in Ecc. 9:5,6,10, do dead people know anything? And these verses are correctly translated.

The words "soul" and "spirit" have become corrupted through theology so that they are now used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous. They are not synonymous. There may be certain similarities between soul and spirit, but similarities do not make them one and the same.

The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).

A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.

�         souls can touch (Lev. 5:2)

�         souls have knowledge (Pr. 2:10)

�         souls have memory (Lam. 3:20)

�         souls can love, and be joyful (Psa. 35:9; 86:4)

�         souls can hunger and thirst (Deut. 14:26)

�         souls can sin (Lev. 4:2)

�         life can be given to a soul (Job 3:20)

�         souls can die (Ezek. 18:20)

�         souls can be converted (Psa. 19:7)

�         none can keep alive his (own) soul (Psa. 22:29)

�         honey is sweet to the soul (Pr. 16:24)

�         even God has a soul (Lev. 26:11, I Sam. 2:35, Jer. 32:41)

�         souls can hear (Acts 3:22-23)

�         souls can experience pleasure (Heb. 10:3)

�         souls can be purified (I Pet. 1:22)

�         and souls can receive salvation (I Pet. 1:9).

These verses show the wide range of emotions and sensations that "souls" experience, but dead souls experience nothing in the unseen or imperceptible (hades). We need to pay close attention to the meaning of words. Hades comes from the Greek a(i)des. The a is a prefix which is equivalent to our un- and the stem -id means perceive. Thus we have UN-PERCEIVE, or imperceptible: the unseen. Etymologically, your doctrine of torment in hell falls flat on its face. From the words that God chose to call this condition of the soul after death, one thing is crystal clear: There is absolutely no perception there. And the soul has everything to do with perception and sensation as clearly seen from the verses above.

So why do you teach that there is perception in death? The very meaning of the word itself (hades) is unseen or imperceptible, so how can a dead soul have perception in a condition of imperception? God Himself chose this word which teaches us that hades is UN-perceptible or IM-perceptible (NO perception).

Because of the shameful way these words are translated and interchanged in the Authorized Version, it is nearly impossible to understand their true meanings without an exhaustive concordance.
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Paradise
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2008, 08:58:01 AM »

Hi Everyone,

We have Rotherham's and others that place the comma after "this day" rather than before "today" and Ray's explaination of how a comma cannot negate what the rest of scripture teaches, the dead are dead until the resurrection.


Luke 23:42,43 "And he was saying: Jesus! remember me, whensoever thou mayest come in thy kingdom. And Jesus said to him, Verily, to thee I say, this day, with me shalt be in the paradise." (Rotherham's)

Let's have a look at the original Greek word that was translated "this day."

G4594
σήμερον
sēmeron
say'-mer-on
Neuter (as adverb) of a presumed compound of the article G3588 (“tau” changed to “sigma”) and G2250; on the (that is, this) day (or night current or just passed); genitively now (that is, at present, hitherto): - this (to-) day.

As you can see the translation could have read;

"I am telling you this now, you will be with me in paradise." Isn't that the ultimate fate of all eventually? Does it not fit perfectly with what we have been given to see as the real Good News, the real Gospel?

Peace,

Joe
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Paradise
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2008, 11:59:58 AM »


Hi Eileen,

Luke 23:43  And2532 Jesus2424 said2036 unto him,846 Verily281 I say3004 unto thee,4671 Today4594 shalt thou be2071 with3326 me1700 in1722 paradise.3857

G3857 paradeisos; a park, that is, (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, “paradise”): - paradise.  [Strong's]

With the understanding that Jesus is talking about a future time, which would be the resurrection of the dead.  There is no way this man was of the Elect, he died with Jesus, before the Holy Spirit was given.  He falls in there with John the Baptist.

Luke 7:28  For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

The key word is "paradise."  Consider that this man was already of a repentant attitude and Christ knew his heart.  So this is talking about when he comes up in the resurrection of the dead - judgment.  Christ will be ruling the world!  For some this will be considered paradise, others will be in terrible torment.

Luke 12:47  And that servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
v. 48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Consider that the "many stripes" and the "few stripes" cover all judgment during the day of the Lord and there will be a great degree of variance.  So I think Christ said paradise to this man and the meaning was what the earth will be like for him when he is raised, it won't seem like paradise for some though.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Logged

EKnight

  • Guest
Re: Paradise
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2008, 01:42:07 PM »

thanks MG and Kat.  MG you recent response saved me from having to ask another question.

Coincidently (or maybe not), My sister emailed me this morning with Mark 5: 39-40 "The child is not dead, but sleeping." And they ridiculed Him.
But when He had put them all outside, He took the father and the mother of
the child, and those who were with Him, and entered where the child was
lying.

And she asked is she dead or asleep?  So I copied and pasted part of your last response to me and told her to read John 11: 11-14 which I thought was pretty clear.

Thanks again,
Eileen
Logged

Roy Monis

  • Guest
Re: Paradise
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2008, 03:54:43 PM »

I hope no one is annoyed with my constant questions but I just want it all to be correct in my head.  I was having a conversation with my sister the other night and I was telling her that all the dead are asleep awaiting judgment and that no one is in heaven or with God yet.  She then quoted me: Luke 23:43 KJV "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Hmmm, what to say to this? I have not read anything here on that scripture as of yet.  Is there something? 

I thought maybe Jesus was saying as of this day or as of this moment in time, you have secured a place in paradise.

Anyone?

Eileen

Hi! Eileen

You're spot on, your sister tried to catch you out now you tell her, if she's prepared for the truth, that is?

 

God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.036 seconds with 20 queries.