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Paradise

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EKnight:
I hope no one is annoyed with my constant questions but I just want it all to be correct in my head.  I was having a conversation with my sister the other night and I was telling her that all the dead are asleep awaiting judgment and that no one is in heaven or with God yet.  She then quoted me: Luke 23:43 KJV "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Hmmm, what to say to this? I have not read anything here on that scripture as of yet.  Is there something? 

I thought maybe Jesus was saying as of this day or as of this moment in time, you have secured a place in paradise.

Anyone?

Eileen

Robin:
Here is one of Ray's emails on the subject.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,979.0.html

Hello Ray:
 
I have E-mailed you a few times over the last couple of years and you have always been gracious enough to reply.
 
I was telling a Christian Lady Friend of mine that when you die...you are DEAD and await judgement day and at some point will THEN go to Heaven and that you do not automatically go to Heaven when you die (Hey, am I hired?!)
 
She brought up the thing Christ said on the Cross. I DID read your reply to this question you sent a reader awhile ago. I must admit that if I was standing there on the Mountain while Christ was crucified and I HEARD him utter "Today You shall be with me in Paradise" the first thing that would come to my mind would NOT be a debate on where the comma should be placed...I would take Christ at his Word. Secondly, Christ DID use the word "Paradise". My questions are two-fold..... If "Paradise" does NOT mean "Heaven", than what does it mean?.....and # 2 why then DID Christ use the term "Paradise"? With most of your writings I feel you are 100% right-on....but I must admit I am "not seeing the light" on this issue. In your reply to the reader I mentioned you seem to fluff over the whole issue of "Paradise" and talk about other matters (and I agree with your logic...to the point where I irritate my men's group and they say I should stop reading your Web site! !!) . I must admit what happens to one when you die still bothers me a bit.....I want to agree with you but then again Christ clearly says NO man is good...so the ultimate judgement is that NO man passes...so once again it is left to Christ's Grace saving mankind (in which case why the delay in joining him?).   
 
Help!
 
Scot
 

Dear Scot:
I would think that no less than 50 times over the years, I have said that I will (some time in the FUTURE) write a paper on this. This is NOT a priority with me. There are many more important subjects that I mujst write on before I do a paper on this subject. If a short 3 or 4 sentence answer is all that is needed, I would have done that already in the dozens and dozens of emails I have received on this question over the years.
 
It is not kosher to quote half of a verse when it has a larger context.   Jesus did not begin a sentence with: "TODAY you shall be with me in paradise," did He?  No, Jesus said: "Verily I say unto thee TODAY shall you be with Me in paradise."  But even that is King James translating, and King James is not inerrant.  Notice how the great scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham renders this verse:  "Verily I say unto thee this day:  With me shalt thou be in Paradise."  But as a footnote he suggests that "This day with me shalt...." as a possibility. So what's the solution?  God tells us how to solve this Verse and every other verse of Scripture:  "That no prophecy of scripture becomes self-solving" (II Pet. 1:20, Rotherham), "That no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its OWN explanation" (Concordant LNT).
We must go to other Scriptures to explain what is mean by this Scripture.
 
But is this what theology does?  No, theologians say this this verse EXPLAINS ITSELF--"That VERY DAY the thief when with Christ TO HEAVEN."  Oh really?  That is not what the REST of the Bible teaches.
 
DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that?  Is there any Scriptural justification for that?  NO, no there isn't.  In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis to heaven?  Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures.  "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."
 
There is the mention of only two primary "gardens" in Scripture: The "tree of life" (Gen. 2:9) is found in Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:9).  And what else is that Garden of Eden called?  Answer: "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God" (Rev. 2:7).
 
[1]  The "Garden of Eden."  Was that garden, "heaven?"  What did we find in that garden:  (1) the knowledge of EVIL, (2) rebellion and SIN, (3) a flaming SWORD, (4) the pronouncement of CURSES, and (5) the lying SERPENT (Satan--Rev. 12:9).
 
[2]  The "Garden of Gethsemane."  Was that garden "heaven?"   What did we find in that garden?  (1) The Apostles DESERTED Jesus in this garden,  (2) Judas BETRAYED Jesus in this garden, (3) an army of wicked elders, scribes and chief priest with clubs and SWORDS, (4) Jesus is carried away from this garden to be CRUCIFIED, and (5) This garden contained the TOMB in which the DEAD Jesus was placed.
 
Do any of this evils in these two paradise gardens sound like "heaven" to you?   I don't care if there are NO commas in Luke 23:43.  Commas do not make or break the Scriptures of God.  This verse does not contradict hundreds and hundreds of other Scriptures as the Church teaches it does.  That day, "today," both Jesus AND the thief, DIED AND THEY WERE DEAD
 
This is a large subject involving the different resurrections, and the Judgments of God. It will take a sizable paper to cover it properly and I cannot do it now. Hope you understand.
 
God be with you,
Ray

carol v:
Yes Eileen...it is simply a matter of a comma. Greek doesn't use commas and translators put it in the wrong place.

This:

Luke 23:43 KJV "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Should be this:

Luke 23:43 KJV "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise."

It was promise Christ made that day -- today. And ALSO -- Christ was in the grave Himself and not resurrected for 3 days so that would make Him a liar!

Carol

Robin:
Here is another.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6936.0.html

Dear Harris:  I do not mean to put a kink in your armor, but I will give you just a little instruction on one of your major premises:

"Lu:23:42: And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. The thief was asking Jesus to remember him when he came into or established his kingdom {The millennial reign} and notice the unexpected answer he received.

Lu:23:43: And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. He said today, not tomorrow or a thousand years from now but that today he would be with him in paradise. Now your answer would normally be ‘oh yeah’ when we die we will be with him..."
 
If this verse of Scripture is true according to your interpretation, then it contradicts most of the major teachings in the entire Bible concerning, repentance, overcoming, producing much fruit, enduring to the end, and resurrection of the dead.  One cannot pervert the entire Word of God by merely misplacing a comma (,).  Here are better renderings of Luke 23:43:

"And Jesus said to him, 'Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise.'" (Concordant Literal New Testament).

"And he said unto him—Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise" (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible).

Even you gave Scripture showing that the wages of sin is "DEATH."  Why do you then deny it in your paper.  "Jesus DIED for our sins according to the Scriptures."  He was not merely "crucified for our sins."  No, HE D-I-E-D. And when people DIE, Harris, they are DEAD. I can't believe that it would be necessary for me to provide a Scripture to prove such an elementary concept, but I will:

Jos 1:1 Now after the DEATH of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying, Jos 1:2 Moses My servant is DEAD..."
Well there you have from God Almighty Himself.  When a person DIES, he is DEAD.  So when you change that to some other unscriptural nonsense, you are treading in dangerous territory.  Jesus was NOT in the Christian hell of eternal torture, nor was He preaching to spirits in some pagan hell, neither was he in a place called "paradise."  Jesus was doing in the tomb exactly what He was prophesied to do and what He was commissioned to do by His Father--He died, and was therefore DEAD, until His Father Resurrected Him FROM THE DEAD.
Jesus' Father did not resurrect Jesus of Hell or from Paradise.  Jesus was DEAD in the tomb until early Sunday morning, and so was the thief DEAD.
 
Now the difference between these two deaths is that Jesus was resurrected from the dead, but the thief was NOT--he is still dead, awaiting resurrection.  If Jesus was not DEAD when He DIED for our sins, then you don't have a Saviour, Harris! And neither does anyone else!  This is mighty important stuff you are contradicting in your paper.  Do you not pay attention to the many hundreds of Scriptures that refute you paper?....

Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that He rose from the DEAD, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
Harris:  If Jesus "rose from the DEAD" how say you that He was NOT EVEN DEAD TO BEGIN WITH?  If Jesus "rose from the DEAD" how say you that
that there is no resurrection of the the DEAD THIEF," but that he is presently LIVING in a place called "paradise?"
 
I am sorry I don't have time to critique your entire paper, but I receive many requests to read hundreds and thousands of pages of papers, books, Internet sites, etc., but I just am not able. So I cannot comment on your entire paper. However,  I hope my little critique on this one point does not anger you.
God be with you,
Ray
 
PS   Another minor point:  The thief did not ASK to be with Jesus in Paradise, did he?  NO, he did not. He asked Jesus to "remember him when Jesus came in His kingdom."  Now then, Did Jesus say, "Yes, of course, I tell you that TODAY you with be with Me in My kingdom?'  Did Jesus answer Him thus?  NO.  Well what in the world then did Jesus mean that the thief would be with Him [at some future date, not "today," but "shall be with Me," which is future tense] "in paradise?"  Ah, that is the subject of one of my upcoming papers, and it is about as far removed from the Christian teaching and your teaching as anything could be.

EKnight:
One cannot pervert the entire Word of God by merely misplacing a comma (,).  Here are better renderings of Luke 23:43:

I don't care if there are NO commas in Luke 23:43.  Commas do not make or break the Scriptures of God.

The above two statements are by Ray in response to emails (posted by MG in Reference to my question).  So yes Carol I can see how the comma can make a difference but that isn't what Ray said to his emailers.

Ray also says to these emailers that Paradise is not Heaven.  Then what was Jesus referring to when He said paradise?

And when I showed these replies to my husband and I told him that Jesus was dead in the tomb for three days so how could it mean that he (the thief) would be in paradise on that same day?  My husband said but what about his soul? 

I'm sure these questions have been asked and answered and believe me I have been reading on this site for months but again, I haven't come across the answers (or maybe I don't recall).

sorry,
Eileen

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