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[EKnight]

Okay, no such thing as Free will.  God's will prevails.  Does this imply that there is nothing one can feel proud about?  I am having a hard time with this.  Here is why:

My daughter and her boyfriend are sitting here playing a game and have pretty much been here all day.  My daughter is 17 and about to graduate high school.  By no means an honor student but a well behaved daughter. ALL of her girl friends (she does not) drink and smoke pot. Many of whom will be receiving scholarships at graduation.  One of them is the President of SADD (students against destructive decisions) and not only drinks but has done some shameful things (I will not perpetuate them here).  Resisting peer pressure is a major accomplishment especially these days.  Having said all that, how can I not encourage her to continue on this path without patting her on the back.  I don't think it is enough to say "well, God just did not will you to be like all of your friends, aren't you lucky".  Doesn't she have the right to feel good about the positive choices she has made these past four years?

Eileen

[rjsurfs]

Hi Eileen,

How about being thankful that God gave her the strength to make these choices and that he put circumstances in place to make it so?  Remember too that Ray shows us that we do have the ability to make choices... we even have wills... they are just not wills that are ours freely without causality.

I know that you love your daughter for who she is... I don't see that as pride.

Bobby

[Samson]

Okay, no such thing as Free will.  God's will prevails.  Does this imply that there is nothing one can feel proud about?  I am having a hard time with this.  Here is why:

My daughter and her boyfriend are sitting here playing a game and have pretty much been here all day.  My daughter is 17 and about to graduate high school.  By no means an honor student but a well behaved daughter. ALL of her girl friends (she does not) drink and smoke pot. Many of whom will be receiving scholarships at graduation.  One of them is the President of SADD (students against destructive decisions) and not only drinks but has done some shameful things (I will not perpetuate them here).  Resisting peer pressure is a major accomplishment especially these days.  Having said all that, how can I not encourage her to continue on this path without patting her on the back.  I don't think it is enough to say "well, God just did not will you to be like all of your friends, aren't you lucky".  Doesn't she have the right to feel good about the positive choices she has made these past four years?


Hello Eileen,

                  I think part of the point is that your good parenting was the cause that led to your Daughter's good choices. Ray says we make thousands of choices a day, some of which we aren't even conscious of, your patting your Daughter on the back and praising her would constitute a cause and her continued good efforts could be the choice resulting from the prior cause. According to Ray, the fact we didn't end up doing terrible things like Saddam Hussein's Son is resulting from the Grace of God. I't's good to remember that we aren't necessarily aware of why we made a certain choice, but that doesn't mean their wasn't one. The Cause and effect relationship is a Scientific fact, as brought out by Ray in his Audio Talk about Free Will, perhaps it might help you to listen to that again, I've listened to it 3 times and still gain insight that I didn't have the previous time I listened to it, the mind can only retain so much at one time. Also, he brings out the testimony of Scientists that support the idea that everything has a prior cause, it's Scientific fact, he also mentions the definition of Free Will in this Talk according to Dictionaries, for something to be the result of Free Will, their would be no prior cause. God himself would be an example of that, because he's the source of Causation. Yahweh (YHWH) literally means, He that causes to become, The First Cause.

Eileen                        Hope this helps, Samson.

[Kat]

how can I not encourage her to continue on this path without patting her on the back.  I don't think it is enough to say "well, God just did not will you to be like all of your friends, aren't you lucky".  Doesn't she have the right to feel good about the positive choices she has made these past four years?

As a mother it is your responsibility to "train up a child" (pro. 22:6).  Your daughter is what God has put in your life so that you can train her up to know how to live right.  This means you need to prepare; give instruction and discipline.  These should be done in love to encourage her in the right direction. Not only is this giving her the needed instruction to know how to live, as a mother I have learned a tremendous amount from training my children.  It is a big job to raise a child. 

Feeling good about doing the right thing is not bad.  But I think we have to careful about proud as it can be haughty or insolent attitude that we need to guard against.  But give your daughter a pat on the back, she needs to know when she has done right, I would think that is a good thing.  It's a balancing act we do to praise them when they are good, but not give them so much that they become cocky; overconfidence, conceited. 

You sound like a good mom and your daughter seems to be on the right track 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[EKnight]

Every time I think there is no solution that will pacify me, I come here and get such positive feedback.  Yes, all of your answers have been helpful and I really appreciate you all taking the time to answer.  Thanks!!!

Eileen

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Eileen

Bobby is so right. You are greatly blessed dear lady, God has been extremely gracious with you by giving you the good sense and ability to bring your daughter up the way you have, she's now a credit to you, I congratulate you on that, and He has rewarded you by giving you a daughter that not only obeys but admires you for your love and guidance. Don't thank us, sister, thank the Person who so abundantly blessed you. Be like the leper who turned and thanked Him for the cure and not like the nine who forgot. "And Jesus answering said, 'Were not the ten cleansed? but where are the nine? 18Were there none found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger?'" (Luke 17:17,18).
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God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

[David]

Hi Eileen

I personally don't think we can be proud of how our children turn out.
I have 3 daughters, all IMO and to my recollection raised the same, had the same values and discipline instilled in them as children and young adults. All educated at the same school. One of them aged 21 does not swear, drink or smoke. The other two do drink and smoke, and their language when they are with their "cool" friends leaves a lot to be desired. There's little I can do now other than express my disapproval, they are adults, live in different towns and have their own lives.
I thank God for the fact that the 21 year old didn't choose that path, I don't see that I had any power over it, and any influence I may have had was by the grace of God, not me.

Mark 22:18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?”[g] 20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.
 Luke 1:51 He has shown strength with His arm;
      He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
1 Peter 5:5 God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble

I only did a search of the words pride and proud in the NT, and couldn't find one single scripture where those words are a positive characteristic.
Give the glory to God Eilleen.
God bless
David

[EKnight]

Hi David,

I understand what you are saying.  I have three kids and two of them don't drink or smoke and I am working on the other one.  He just got out of rehab and appears to be doing well.  In fact, had it not been for him being in trouble, I am pretty sure I would not be here at BT.

However, like some of the other posters here, I agree that my kids were faced with the choices that all teenagers face and by the grace of God, were given the strength to withstand peer pressure.  The causes were unbeknownst to them.  I think I know the causes, for instance I am very close to my daughter and for years my family kept telling that we were to close and she was too dependent on my husband and I.  I refused to listen to them and believe our strong relationship with her influenced her decision making.  So it's like the domino effect, God causes or influences our decisions without our even knowing and those decisions in turn effect other decisions and on it goes. 

I am always grateful to God for ALL things and for ALL my children.  And I recognize his hand in all things, but I have this need to tell my daughter (in order to encourage her to continue) that she is making good decisions.  How do I know that if I don't say something to make her feel good about how far she has come, that she would think I don't appreciate her behavior and then start making bad decisions.  Even Ray says, that we need to still pray, that God is waiting for us to ask.  Maybe pride is the wrong term, maybe appreciate or commending doing what is right is what I really mean.

Thanks for your input.

Eileen

[Redbird]

Wow, there is so much going on in this thread that I can relate to.  Being the mother of 3 teenage sons who are all considered to be very handsome, athletic, intelligent and kind, I am humbled by what God has done through me.  They, being in the world are well aware of their attributes and I ALWAYS TRY TO REMIND THEM THAT THEY HAVE BEEN GIVEN THESE GIFTS FROM GOD NOT THRU THEIR OWN DOING AND THAT THEY SHOULD BE THANKFUL AND GIVE GOD THE GLORY.  When people comment on what a fine job my husband and I have done so far in raising them, I know I can not take all the credit, as there are many who have had a hand in this;  grandparents, teachers, friends, neighbors, coaches, etc.  but first and foremost their Creator.   

And by the way, I drink occasionally and also smoke  , but God loves me very much anyway. Go figure!

Peace and Love,
Lisa

[Roy Monis]

Wow, there is so much going on in this thread that I can relate to.  Being the mother of 3 teenage sons who are all considered to be very handsome, athletic, intelligent and kind, I am humbled by what God has done through me.  They, being in the world are well aware of their attributes and I ALWAYS TRY TO REMIND THEM THAT THEY HAVE BEEN GIVEN THESE GIFTS FROM GOD NOT THRU THEIR OWN DOING AND THAT THEY SHOULD BE THANKFUL AND GIVE GOD THE GLORY.  When people comment on what a fine job my husband and I have done so far in raising them, I know I can not take all the credit, as there are many who have had a hand in this;  grandparents, teachers, friends, neighbors, coaches, etc.  but first and foremost their Creator.   

And by the way, I drink occasionally and also smoke  , but God loves me very much anyway. Go figure!

Peace and Love,
Lisa

Congratulations Lisa!

On the wonderful job you have done on your children, and your acknowledgment that others had a hand in it including the one bringing up the rear, their Creator. But why did you have to go and spoil it with your boast, "By the way I drink occasionally and smoke....Go figure." There are brothers and sisters on this forum who are trying very hard to kick the addiction and your encouragement is not at all helpful. Be an example to them as you are to your children by kicking the habit yourself and leading a good example or keeping your boast under your hat. I say this in love for your health and everyone else's.

I am not being judgmental but trying to be helpful.

God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

[Redbird]

Dear Roy,

It is not a boast by no means.  I say this to share that God still loves their children even in times of weakness.

Peace and Love, Lisa

[Falconn003]

Be blessed God has willed you the better, stronger Parent and your childern are proof positive of that Grace bestowed upon your family, whereas the other childern you spoke of are products of poor/weak/lazy parenting period.

The future looks very promising for your Daughter who has abstain from temption, of course that is if she is truthful with you.

My 2 sons and  2 nephews, who were staying with me at the time, told me all the wonderfull things, how they stayed away from the bad, my suspicions told me otherwise, and unfurtunatly i was correct.

I laid down an ultimatum, 3 went back to thier mothers and my youngest at the time stayed, to this day he is the most muture one , graduate on time, made me a grand pa, has a very good job and is now heading into College. The others are now finnally coming around, after so much of thier trial and error, they see what it takes to live in this mercilous world.

After much, much, life lessons, on how they should value thier INDEPENDENCE, and not be dependent on anything  such as drugs, welfare, pity, parents ....ect. FINNALLY they now see and thier future is brighter.

Peace
Rodger

[Roy Monis]

Dear Roy,

It is not a boast by no means.  I say this to share that God still loves their children even in times of weakness.

Peace and Love, Lisa

Dear Lisa

I agree with you that God loves His children even with their weaknesses , we all have those and I still have plenty, in all probability more than you but we must not be complacent about it. In love He even died for us regardless of our sins. Should we be complacent and continue sinning? “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (Jn.3:16).

We are admonished by God to overcome and that means to fight these flaws and encourage others and not languish in the knowledge that God loves us regardless. At one time I couldn't pass a pub without a strong urge to call in. At one time I couldn't go out the house without tapping my pockets to see whether I got my cigarettes and matches as one dangled from between my lips.

Where would I be today if I'd sat back those 40 years past and said "Oh well God loves me regardless." No I had to challenge it and with God's help I succeeded, without it I just could not and that not for want of trying. And I tried with all the will in the world, so it goes to show how strong man's supposed free will really is, does it not?

I'm not criticizing or being judgmental, just trying to help because I know what you're having to deal with so I'm sharing my experience with you and praying that God will help you and all my fellow travelers to kick those filthy habits. It is not love to subject your family and neighbours to the dangers of passive smoking which can be every bit as harmful to their health as it is to yours.

God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

[winner08]

I was thinking earlier, and I came to the conclusion that one can only beleive we either have free will or we don't have free will. We can't beleive we have some free will and God has some will over us. either we do or we just don't. If I beleive I have free will then that changes everthing I beleive now. Ifd I beleive Gpd is in total controll of EVERYTHING There is no way that I can be in control of anything. God would have to change His plan for us every second of every day. With 6billion people who have free will God would not beable to get anything done. If we had free will then we could chose God's way are the devil's way. Then they would probable have a hand full of people who would actually be saved. Most of us would go the other way. As you see I included myself it this theroy, because I don't have a strong enough will to do God's will. I need help. Then if you beleive we have free will then you also must beleive we have to choose good or evil and since we all fall short of the glory of God and we can not enter the Kingdom unless we are born again of the spirit they would have to be a place where the people who fell short had to go in order to be punnish. That would be hell . Now of corse we would have to have something so pressious that it would kill us to hurt it or cause it harm and that would be our immortal soul. Now this would be the ultiment punnishment. Our immortal soul burnning for ever and ever in hell. This is what the man made christian doctrain teaches us. So I can not beleive in my heart of hearts that I have free will. If I was to beleive that then I would have to beleive in all the other nonsence in just spoke about here. Sorry for rattling on. Me and my friend also had this conversation today. It got a little heated.

                          Darren

[EKnight]

My husband won't give up his "free will" and I am constantly trying to show him he doesn't have any such thing.  So the other night I said to him, "do you think you could go 24 hrs without sinning( I clarified and said by using your "free will')?"  he thought about it and thought about it but never really answered.  I told him there was absolutely no way he could do it.  No one but Jesus has never sinned and he (my husband) couldn't even do it for 24 hrs.  I think that's a pretty good scenario to present to "free willers". 

Eileen

[OBrenda]

Eileen....Way to go Girlfried!

[winner08]

I read Ray's paper on free will. I don't quite understand what he meant by we have no free will but we do have choices to make.  I think you guys know what i am saying. If I am driving down the road and come to a left or right turn circumstance will dictate what way I will go. What is the difference between free will and choice?

                                            Darren

[musicman]

We do not have a free will and we can not make free choices.  Choices are caused.

[OBrenda]

Hey Darren,

I thought Ray meant, that we make choices all the time.  But allot of the choices we make are influenced by a cause.  For instance, a person that grows up with allot of money will make different choices and have different beliefs about money, than someone who grows up poor & hungry!  Also that same rich person that never experienced lack, can survive hurricane Katrina and have their entire value system for money change over night!

I am not sure about this, maybe someone can shed some light but..
Not all choices we make may have an effect on our salvation, like choosing a red or blue cup to put your coffee in.
But we can not make any "free choices" good or bad outside the Will of God!  We do have our own Will desires and understanding. And out of that we make choices that are influenced by many external things out of our control.  If you want/will to go to the beach today and you wake up to a tropical storm your probably not going to go.

I see it like a pin ball machine, we are the little silver ball, lifes circumstances are all the bumpers and flippers that God has placed there to reach a destination we can't comprehend.  But we sure know it when one of those flippers hits us in the head.

[cherokee]

I see it like a pin ball machine, we are the little silver ball, lifes circumstances are all the bumpers and flippers that God has placed there to reach a destination we can't comprehend.  But we sure know it when one of those flippers hits us in the head.

OBrenda,
You sure nailed it here.
I can't count the times I have been hit in the head with one of those flippers.

Peace and Love,
Suzie