Free Will Again

[hillsbororiver]

We certainly do make choices, but Who sets the parameters and puts the circumstances before us? Think about all the things we have no control over at all as we get boxed into situations where we are forced to deal with something that perhaps we would never of had to confront if we could indeed make "free will" choices.

If we have a loved one who has a severe medical condition that has put them on life support but with little to no chance of regaining consciousness or even survival, the "choice" is put before us to either leave him artificially alive or pull the plug.
True "free" (no restrictions) will" would have us "choose" for him to completely recover and leave the hospital 100% healthy, wouldn't it? Sure we have a choice, to pull or not to pull but that is it, no infinite amount of "free" choices that can be contemplated, it is one or the other, period.

A panhandler is just arriving at an intersection to begin asking for money, the light turns red and there you are face to face with this person. Yes, you can choose whether or not to give him anything, but......

Before you left your house the phone rang (a solicitor) delaying the start of your journey, then a car cuts you off forcing you to slow down, they made the light but you got stuck at this intersection, the thoughts are racing through your mind; "if it wasn't for that stupid phone call, or that inconsiderate driver I wouldn't be here face to face with this begger, poor me."

You now are presented with a caused not free choice, a truly free choice could remove you from ever having to say yes or no to this pan handler.

We experience these things constantly, you wish you could be an NBA player, you love basketball but you are 5'6" tall, have asthma and your coordination is less than average, can your "free will" overcome these circumstances?

We could go on and on with examples (better ones than I presented for sure) that prove our choices are caused rather than free.

I will close with these;

Pro 20:24  Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23  O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Peace,

Joe

[Kat]

Good examples Joe.

Hi Darren, here are a few emails that may help you with this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4827.msg37299.html#msg37299 ----

I just marvel at the fact that year after year after year, 95% of all email questions and/or comments involve "contradictions."  All day long I am asked to explain what my readers believe are contradictions.  So far, however, no one has presented a true contradiction to the truth. It appears to most of humanity that if God Sovereign and man has no "free" will or "free" choice (that is, there is a cause for everything, and therefore whatever is caused to happen can not NOT HAPPEN, hence it is not "free"), then man has no reasoning abilities, cannot make a choice of what he prefers, and is therefore nothing but a mindless robot.

The reality is that we do have reasoning abilities, and we do choose what we prefer.  You have now present a new twist that suggests neither the deceived person nor the enlightened one can know for sure what is truth, because his realization of truth is only that which God permits or allows him to have through his life experiences.  I am not sure how you came to this conclusion.  Try this: There was a time when most people (albeit not all) believed that the earth was flat.  Now they really believed that and they really were deceived.  But now that we fly space shuttles AROUND the earth in all directions, we know for a fact that the earth is a sphere.  The TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.
The deceived have NO PROOF that they have a "free will," but the enlightened do HAVE PROOF that man does not have a free will.

In fact we have two proofs:  The Word of God and Nature--science.  Even if there is a supposed "law of uncertainty" or "randomness," it still would not allow for "freedom" of the will or "freedom" of choice.  If a person's thoughts are "free" to come into existence without any cause, from where is it that they come?  You may reply:  "Why they come from ME and me alone."  Oh really?  But from WHERE is "you?"  From your mind?  Your will?  Your WHAT?  Did you think about thinking the thought before it came into existence?  All you do is take the cause back to a more distance CAUSE.  What CAUSED your thinking to think a thought?  "THINGS" cause you to think thoughts. Thoughts do not come from "out of the blue."  And if they did, then we have merely pushed the real "cause" back a little further, only this time the cause is "the BLUE"--whatever that is.

If Science proves something AND THE WORD OF GOD proves something, then it's true, and that is how you can KNOW that it is true.  If you re-read my paper on "free will," you will be given both Scientific and Scriptural proof as to what the truth is on this matter.  "THY WORD IS TRUTH" (John 17:17).  Hope this helps your understanding.

God be with you,
Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2697.0.html  -----

If the future is dependant upon our decisions that are truly "free" and not caused to happen, then the future cannot be known, NOT EVEN BY GOD. But, since God does know all that is in the future, it is proof positive that there is no such thing an effect which did not have a cause. If an event (an effect)  that WILL happen is both free to happen and free not to happen, then why DOES IT HAPPEN?  If it was "free" to NOT HAPPEN, then why did it HAPPEN.  What CAUSED IT TO HAPPEN against its supposed freedom to NOT HAPPEN. How could an effect NOT HAVE BEEN EFFECTED (that's freedom)?  The instant an "effect" comes about, it has lost all "freedom" to have NOT come about. Therefore ALL THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED was not "free" to not happen at all. If it were, theoretically, NOTHING IN THE UNIVERSE WOULD HAVE EVER HAD TO HAPPEN. Things are CAUSED to happen and that Cause is what we call "GOD."  What I have just stated cannot be argued with any wisdom, logic, or true knowledge. To argue against what I have stated is sheer foolishness. Unfortunately, precious few can see it or understand it even though the Scriptures are very clear on it.

God be with you,
Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4702.0.html -----------

OF COURSE we have a "choice." We, in fact, have made MILLIONS of our OWN choices. Every choice you make is YOUR CHOICE.  Whose do think it is?  When you decide to have apple pie for desert, who makes that choice?  If you change your mind and decide that you will rather have cherry pie, who changed your mind and made the new choice? Did that choice come out of SOME ONE ELSE'S mind and mouth?  Did something FORCE YOU AGAINST YOUR WILL to choose apple pie when you really really wanted blueberry pie? Well?  No, of course not. You CHOSE which desert YOU preferred, did you not? Yes, of course you did. Can a "robot" choose which kind of pie it wants? No, of course not, and even if it did, it wouldn't have been based on a thousand and one emotions, circumstances, appearances, price, past memories of which pie taste the best, etc. etc., etc., etc., etc., would it?  We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.       

        Now it is true that the final choice we made is the ONLY choice that we could have made, but so what?  It is, after all, THE ONE WE WANTED TO MAKE.  Can you now understand it?

        Do you still think you are a robot?  I hope not. It takes a lot of thought and meditation to wrap your mind around this powerful spiritual truth.

        God be with you,

        Ray

[Samson]

I read Ray's paper on free will. I don't quite understand what he meant by we have no free will but we do have choices to make.  I think you guys know what i am saying. If I am driving down the road and come to a left or right turn circumstance will dictate what way I will go. What is the difference between free will and choice?

                                            Darren

Hi Darren,

                I enjoy your fellowship on this Forum, in regards to explaining the Free Will Truth, Kat gave a good explanation, my advice is to listen to Ray's Audio again and again.

                Not much for me to add except, A CHOICE CANNOT BE FREE IF THEIR'S A PRIOR CAUSE, IT'S A CAUSE/EFFECT RELATIONSHIP, PROVEN SCIENCE SUPPORTS THIS CONCEPT. YOU MAY OR MAY NOT BE CONSCIOUS OF THAT PRIOR CAUSE THAT LEAD TO YOUR CHOICE. A CHOICE CAN'T BE FREE IF THEIR'S A PRIOR CAUSE, NONE OF OUR MANY DAILY CHOICES ARE ORIGINAL, THEY HAVE A PRIOR ORIGIN. ONLY GOD HAS FREE WILL. WHEN YOU LISTEN TO RAY'S AUDIO AGAIN, NOTICE HE MENTIONS A DICTIONARY DEFINITION OF FREE WILL, ALSO STATEMENTS BY LEADING SCIENTISTS ON THE CAUSE/EFFECT RELATIONSHIP.

                     Now, I'm going to exercise and listen to this myself, because I start to forget these points.

                                            Your Brother, Samson.

[Roy Monis]

My husband won't give up his "free will" and I am constantly trying to show him he doesn't have any such thing.  So the other night I said to him, "do you think you could go 24 hrs without sinning( I clarified and said by using your "free will')?"  he thought about it and thought about it but never really answered.  I told him there was absolutely no way he could do it.  No one but Jesus has never sinned and he (my husband) couldn't even do it for 24 hrs.  I think that's a pretty good scenario to present to "free willers". 

Eileen

Dear Eileen

Does your husband have any weaknesses such as an addiction to smoking, alcohol or drugs or anything that he'd find impossible to kick. If so ask him to show how strong his free will is and chuck it completely without adopting some form of substitute.

If he has no weaknesses then, my dear, he is perfect hang on to him perhaps he's right. Seriously though in the end God's Will, not his puny little will, will be done and there can be no doubt about that. This is what God has to say about it: "Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it." (Isa.46:11). How do you think he will challenge that? Such people make me laugh, I hope he's not a big bloke?

God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

[rjsurfs]

Hello All,

The myth of free will is tough... it is a hard learning.  Even when you think you've got it... you'll later find that it goes deeper than that... and it keeps going.  I remember when I first saw the title of Ray's article on it a couple of years ago... the first thought that ran through my head was, "what does that have to do with anything?".  The beast within is an accurate description of ourselves when this doctrine is alive and well in our hearts.  I haven't heard yet of anyone that read over that teaching once and got it... as a few others have recommended, just get back into the study... study the scripture over and over and pray for understanding and a love for the truth.

I did want to comment on a particular comment by OBrenda... she said:

Not all choices we make may have an effect on our salvation

I just wanted to clarify that we do not have any free choices that could affect our salvation or the salvation of others... this is the beast alive and well in Babylon.  However, every caused choice affects the course or progress of our salvation... in that God is bringing (creating) us into his image... and everything has a reason and purpose.  For the elect it is the burning of the spiritual wood, hay, and stubble out of our hearts while purifying the spiritual gold, silver, and precious stones of our hearts... by God who is our consuming fire.

I need to continue studying as I am always learning.

Bobby

[EKnight]

Ha Roy,  He (my husband) smokes and after I told him he could not (with his free will)  sin for 24hrs, I later told him "by the way smoking is a sin because we are defiling our bodies by smoking".  We (he and I) have not been drinking alcohol so that we stand in solidarity with our oldest son who spent a month in rehab. 

Eileen

[Beloved]

I think that winner 08 hit on a key point....it may not be about free will rather that people who support this view do not truly believe in the total sovergnty of God.

Oh they will say they do but here is object evidence that they do not. They want to tell the potter how the pot will function. They cannot surrender all to God...like Annais and Sophia they want to hold this part back.

No wonder God calls them stiffnecked and hard hearted....God has not circumsized their hearts yet....For those whose eyes are open this man made concept of free will is pulverized. For some it is fast and others it chip by chip.

beloved

[OBrenda]

Hi Bobby,

I did want to comment on a particular comment by OBrenda... she said:

Not all choices we make may have an effect on our salvation

As I wrote prior to the above statement:
I am not sure about this, maybe someone can shed some light but..

I appreciate you jumping in there!  I am struggling with others here, to get my mind completely around this absolute truth.  I have no resistance to it, and appreciate this forum to be able to be vulnerable in my areas of ignorance in the details!

I think through this thread (thanks for starting it Eileen) the layer of the onion that just got peeled off was when I read scriptures...Where God hardens the heart of Pharaoh, and similar instances, my mind pictures God at that instance taking control of the individual!  But...is it actually?, Pharaoh is making the decision, but his decision was caused by God to happen by many things and circumstances surrounding him?

Did I get this right???

If not, I'll keep chipping away...don't give up on me!

 

[Beloved]

Here is one verse where God after David sins , God actually asks David to choose one of three things.... This is a very unusual thing for God to allow him to participate in choosing.  The word for choose uses is

H6901  קבל  qâbal  kaw-bal'
A primitive root; to admit, that is, take (literally or figuratively): - choose, (take) hold, receive, (under-) take.

David did not have a choice to change anything. This is a very prophetic verse

In most of the OT when God speaks of a person or nation choosing the following word is used

H977 בּחר  bâchar baw-khar'
A primitive root; properly to try, that is, (by implication) select: - acceptable, appoint, choose (choice), excellent, join, be rather, require.

God is requiring of them .....not asking them for thier opinion.

Even Goliath when he tell Israel to choose a man to fight him  the word choose he uses is

H1254  בּרא   bârâ'  baw-raw' 
A primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

Goliath is not asking .....he is telling them to basically sacrifice a man to him

The people who translated the words really put the words of their own idols of heart down on the pages of the Bible. Now the rest of the church is more easily deceived, they do not want to know the truth.

beloved