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Kat:
Re: Something new to me
on: July 15, 2007, 07:51:17 PM


WAS ADAM'S SIN PASSED ON TO HIS PROGENY?

Someone has suggested to the forum that Romans 5:19 contradicts a statement I made regarding the fact that Adam's sins were not passed on to his progeny, but rather his mortality (death) was passed on. Here is my statement: "You might suggest that Adam's sin was PASSED ON to all men. No it wasn't. DEATH was passed on."

Now then, does Rom. 5:19 contradict my statement? -- "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Why does Paul change words in midstream if they are both identical to his meaning? Why didn't Paul say, "For as by one man's SIN many were made SINNERS...?" Or "For as by one man's DISOBEDIENCE many were made DISOBEDIENT? No, Paul says that Adam's disobedience is the CAUSE of men being sinners. It doesn't say HIS SINS ARE NOW THEIR SINS. Where does this verse say anything like that? Or that the many are GUILTY for the sins that Adam committed. Or that the many are sinners, even if they NEVER SIN This verse does not say any of those things. But the statement is true: Adam's disobedience has made many into sinners. How so? Remember that "NO Scripture is its OWN interpretation" (I Pet. 1:20)? And we need TWO witnesses to establish every fact? Etc. Okay.......let's back up a few verses in Rom. 5 to verse 12:

Wherefore, as by one man SIN entered into the world, DEATH BY sin: and so DEATH PASSED UPON ALL MEN [why? because 'ADAM' sinned? NO, let's read it...]...for that A-L-L  H-A-V-E  SINNED."

There's the answer. Adam's personal sin no more pass on to us making US guilty of HIS sins anymore than Eve's sins passed on to her husband. We inherit our parent's (Adam and Eve) mortality and nature. We are not born with their SIN, but with their nature. We are born with the "natural" mind, the Adamic mind, which is called "carnal" in the Scriptures.  Notice: "Because the carnal [natural fleshly mind] is enmity against God: for IT is not subject to the law of God..." (Rom. 8:7). It is not "Adam's sin in us" that is enmity against God, but rather OUR OWN CARNAL MINDS. Notice what it is that came from the one man, Adam: "For since by man came DEATH...for as IN Adam all DIE..." (I Cor. 15:21 & 22).

We are all guilty and accountable for OUR OWN SINS, not the sins of Adam or anyone else.

God be with you all,

Ray

Kat:
Rays Replies to 'Flesh that profits nothing?'
on: March 17, 2006, 09:51:28 AM

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth
nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are
spirit, and [they] are life. [John 6:63]

Does our flesh profit nothing?  Was the design of mans physical body and his experiences to mean nothing?

[Ray's reply]

Sometimes familiar words have a way of prejudicing our minds. In a Scripture such as these where our Lord states that "the flesh PROFITS nothing," and we feel immediately that, why sure it does, isn't that the whole purpose of our physical life, existence, and experience? To be PROFITED by the whole thing? Yes, but that is not specifically what Jesus is stating.

Jesus did not say that there is no value to our physical experience. What He said was that the experience itself is NOT THE PROFIT ITSELF.

I am sure that most read this verse thinking Jesus said this: "...the flesh PRODUCES nothing." As though nothing valuable comes out of our experience in the flesh, when that is decidedly not what Jesus is saying.

The word translated "profits" is from the Greek word "apheleo" and has a primary meaning of "BENEFIT." It is virtually always translated with a negative connotation:

"what is a man PROFITED, if he gain the whole world..." (Matt. 16:26)

"Pilate saw that he could PREVAIL nothing..." (Matt. 27:24)

"and was nothing BETTERED, but rather..." (Mark 5:26)

"...the flesh PROFITS nothing...." (John 6:63)

"Perceive you how you PREVAIL nothing.." (John 12:19)

"For what is a man ADVANTAGED...." (Luke 9:25)

"...it PROFITS me nothing..." (I Cor. 13:3)

"...the word preached did not PROFIT them" (Heb. 4:2)

"...which did not PROFIT them...." (Heb. 13:9)

Next notice that even Christ Himself does not profit some:

"Christ shall PROFIT you nothing...." (Gal. 5:2)

And so what Jesus is clearly stating here is that the FLESH (or any of the other things mentioned above including Christ Himself), are not in and by themselves a BENEFIT (profit) to us until others facts PRODUCE those BENEFITS.

This is why Jesus asked: "What is a man PROFITED if he shall gain the whole world [lots of flesh], and lose his own soul?" (Matt. 16:25).

There is no PROFIT/BENEFIT in the flesh itself, only what comes OUT OF IT. And once you are OUT OF IT (as out of the world), the world is of  NO profit/benefit to you.

Maybe our biggest spiritual example of this is: "Come OUT of her, My people...." (Rev. 18:4). If there is "profit" to be had from being IN Babylon, then perhaps we should all go BACK IN?  No, Babylon is about as fleshly and worldly as anything could ever be, and Babylon BENEFITS NOTHING, so "Come OUT OF HER My people...." The BENEFITS are IN CHRIST, OUT OF Babylon, out of the flesh and the world.

Hope this helps your understanding,

God be with you,

Ray
 
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2.0

Kat:
 
       The infinite mind of an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful CREATOR!

We EXIST (there are only a few strange people who deny this fact of the cosmos, believing that all this is merely a dream. Let's not awaken them!). A creation of infinite DESIGN, SYSTEMS, INTERDEPENDENT ORGANS AND INTERDEPENDENT ORGANISMS, PURPOSE, HARMONY, BEAUTY, INTELLIGENCE (the human mind for example), REPRODUCTION, etc., etc., etc., DEMANDS an intelligent, purposeful, living, all-powerful CREATOR!

No sane and rational person, finding a Rolex Watch on a desert dune, would ever suggest that that marvelous mechanism invented ITSELF, and created ITSELF, and assembled ITSELF, without the aid of any intelligence whatsoever. And yet, supposed, intelligent men speculate that the great time-peace of the universe invented, created, and assembled itself without the aid of any intelligent creator.

Even if we make that quantum leap in our minds from no matter, no harmony, no systems, no design, to perfect harmony and design without the aid of a creator, how do we account for the fact of LIFE? Life is as complicated as the universe itself.

A single cell has more communication and reproductive power than all the machines and computers built by man in the history of the world. Yet we are told that it "built itself." It spontaneously generated itself from primortal sea slime by the mixing of chemical in the sea and a genius stroke of lightning to get it all started. Never mind where the sea came from, the chemicals, and the lightning. Life DOES NOT SPONTANEOUSLY GENERATE ITSELF! Life comes ONLY from pre-existing life, and life of the same KIND. These are facts of science, Tom. (By the way, lightning KILLS LIFE, it does not create life from dead chemicals).

Just based on the Law of Probability (I said "law" and not theory), it would take longer to mix the chemicals at random to produce the long chains of amino acids, etc., needed for life, by at least a trillion times longer than scientists estimate the age of the universe. In other words, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN THAT WAY.

Would an intelligent Creator at some point in time communicate with His higher creatures? I think so. The Scriptures are unique in the world of literature and writing. There are for example, numerous laws of science presented in the Scriptures that scientists have only recently come to understand with his combined knowledge of thousands of years. Primitive writers could not have known many of the things attested to in the Scriptures.
There are hundreds of prophecies in the Scriptures that have been fulfilled in minute detail many years and even centuries AFTER the known date of the writings.

The Scriptures are a collection of SPIRITUAL writings. I had tried for many years to understand them with my unaided carnal mind. I could not, and yet now, I am having hundreds of things revealed to me that harmonize perfectly with the rest of Scripture that cannot possibly be understood by mere study and diligence. Of course, here is where I have an advantage over you: I believe and you don't.

If one is too short to see over a high wall, it is only natural that he would ridicule what a taller person might describe to him on the other side. The problem of perception in this case is not with the taller person who can clearly see the other side, but rather with the short-sighted person who cannot see the other side.

Concerning the spiritual teachings of the Scriptures, let me just say, that there is more real and absolute knowledge in the Scriptures regarding what man is and how he thinks and functions in a half dozen verses than can be found in all the psychology and philosophy books in the world.

My God answers PRAYERS! But again, that's for me to know and you to find out.
I would love to write a fifty page paper on the human eye, for example. Then after blowing away every atheist and evolutionists with the facts regarding the human eye (or an animal eye), I would love to discuss the origin and probability of putting TWO EYES SIDE BY SIDE IN ORDER TO INDUCE AN ILLUSION IN THE BRAIN THE MAKES THINGS APPEAR THREE DIMENSIONAL THROUGH DEPTH PERCEPTION!!!

I would just love to sit on a panel with all the evolutionists and atheists of the world and have them explain to me the origin of such a thing as the allusion in the brain of depth perception through the spacing of two eyes without any intelligence whatsoever formulating such an absolute miraculous, unbelievable accomplishment of mechanical, mental, and organic chemical processes! And a thousand other such feats of intelligence only possible by the infinite mind of an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful CREATOR!


-L. ray Smith

Kat:
'We are SINNING MACHINES!'

[Ray Replies:]

Matthew, you have got to stop talking about God as if He were a mere mortal MAN! God is NOT A MAN! God IS GOD! God is Holy and Righteous and Good and LOVING. He is not evil, neither is He LIMITED IN ANY WAY.

There are MANY things that God does that we as mortals are  NOT TO IMITATE! God "makes war in righteousness"--we cannot. God KILLS and brings back to life again--we cannot.

Because God has chosen to create and USE evil for a divine purpose, we have no right to judge God as BEING evil. He is not. Neither is it a SIN on God's part to make mortals WHO DO SIN. A sin is a mistake, a lack, lawlessness. God is NONE OF THESE!

Your suggestion that because God chooses to NOT DO or NOT BE certain things, that that somehow LIMITS Him is ludicrous. Listen carefully to what I am about to say:  A Being (God) Who has the POWER AND ABILITY to be and do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING HE WISHES, IS NOT LIMITED!!!  The fact that God chooses to not only tell the truth, but is, in fact, the embodiment of TRUTH, and never lies, in no way diminishes God or limits God.  I am surprised that you cannot see and understand this?  God IS AND DOES everything that He wishes--that, my friend, is TOTAL SOVEREIGNTY!!!

The idea that if God were both truthful AND A LIAR at the same time, that then He would be sovereign in that area is nonsense, Matthew.

It is also helpful to understand the Scriptural use of the "relative" and the "absolute". I cover this in my paper. Your example of God being "forgetful" is just such a case. God condescends many times in the Scriptures to interact with man as if God Himself were a man. He likens Himself to one having "eyes" and "hands" and "hair", etc. God DOES NOT possess these physical organs of a physical body. If God had only two eyes in the front of His head as a man, then He wouldn't even be able to SEE BEHIND HIMSELF WITHOUT TURNING HIS HEAD! It is foolishness to attribute mortal, fleshly, inequalities to the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE!

When God says He will remember our sins NO MORE, He is not telling us that He is forgetful or has a poor memory. He is telling us that He will NEVER BRING UP OUR SINS to charge us with them. They have all been forgiven at the Cross of Jesus.

Subtracting "infinity from infinity" is a play on words. It is nonsense and foolishness. As is the question: "Can God build a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it?"

You ask: "By separating good and evil, and putting Himself on the side of GOOD ONLY, He has limited Himself." Oh really? Explain to me just how that "limits" God? 

You ask for a theologian's definition of "free will". Matthew, with all due respect, no theologian worth his salt would EVER express his beliefs in UNDERSTANDABLE WORDS OR TERMS!!! Most teachings, doctrines, and traditions of the Christian Church CANNOT be expressed in understandable layman's language. They always shroud their teachings in darkness, mystery, and words that according to them can have DOZENS OF CONTRADICTORY MEANINGS! I BEG you to read the first few pages of my paper on the trinity where I quote a seminary professor and the Encyclopedia Britannic with regards to how to prove there is a trinity.

That's what I do, Matthew!  I express the teachings of Christendom in layman's language so that all can see the absolute foolishness of their teachings, not to mention unscriptural as well. People LEARN from my writings. They learn to BELIEVE GOD. They learn to BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURES--not man's translations. They learn to have confidence in the God of the Scriptures. Many are turning TO or turning BACK to God because they now see His love and don't see Him as a weakling or hideous monster Who either can't or won't save His creation, but rather will torture His helpless creatures in fire for all eternity.

If you still have questions, Matthew, don't hesitate to ask. I understand your dilemma. We have been taught these things from our youth. But Matthew, I am telling as a brother, there is no more sensibility or logic to the traditional theological doctrines of this world than there for the Easter Bunny or Santa Clause.

OF COURSE people don't like my definition of "free will." It shows how utterly stupid the idea is in the first place. So they reduce their theory down to "limited free will" which only makes them look twice as foolish.  There is no such thing as using REAL words with REAL meanings to describe the STUPID WISDOM'S of this world. That's why Paul instructs us to "have a PATTERN OF SOUND WORDS"! "Limited free will" is NOT a pattern of sound words. Saying "limited free..." is no different that saying "square circles"!

You apparently don't like or don't approve of a definition of "free" that includes the words "having NO causality". Okay then, you give me a definition of a will that HAS a cause (that is something is MAKING the will choose as it does), and yet ... and YET, is "FREE"! Free from WHAT, pray tell, Matthew???  I will be waiting with bated breath to hear your definition...


[email]

p.s.  Why does God ask us to pray that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven..., if (as you say) it will be as He wills no matter what?

[Ray Replies:]

Well I'll tell you one thing for sure: you are at least thinking. Your "P.S." was a good question. If God knows all, and has predetermined all, and "operates ALL according to the counsel of His own will," then why should we "do" or "not do" ANYTHING? I think that is the gist of your question.

There are several reasons for this. I think the main reason is that although we know (or at least those to whom God has opened up this understanding) that "God is operating ALL" for the benefit of His creatures, we still don't know always, when, where, or how He is going to do this.  We don't know what a day will bring.  We MUST rely on God COMPLETELY for all our salvation's. Be it safety in traffic, financial supply, health needs, social intercourse's, etc., etc., etc. We never know from hour to hour or from day to day just what will transpire in our lives. This should DRIVE us to our Heavenly Father. And it does. It works. God knows what he is doing.

People ask me WHY do I do what I do?  Why spend all the time and trouble and expense if God is going to save EVERYONE ANYWAY?  I'll tell you why. Because God PUTS IT IN OUR HEARTS to do so.  The Scriptures say that God could raise up stones to do His work. But He doesn't. He uses "the foolishness of preaching" to get His word out.

Maybe an analogy will help. Suppose you had a bad disease and there was only one doctor and one source of medication that could save you from your deadly disease. Even if this doctor agreed to come to your aid, you would STILL do everything in your power to ingratiate yourself with this man, wouldn't you? Wouldn't you be kind and respectful to him?  Wouldn't you even show a bit of reverence for this man, the only man, who can save you from your disease?  Sure you would. And so it is with God. He is our Saviour and our hope and expectation in EVERYTHING!  The Scriptures say that "in God we live and move and breathe and ARE"!

Now I will pass on another bit of wisdom. The people to whom God has opened up this understanding are delighted that this is the way things really are. They would have it no other way, than that it is GOD and God alone Who determines our every footstep. However, those who feel this is NOT RIGHT, or they do NOT APPROVE of God operating ALL (EVERYTHING), or feel that man is far superior in his "will" than the Scriptures allow, this people DON'T BELIEVE GOD IS OPERATING ALL IN THE FIRST PLACE!   So they can't find too much fault with this truth, because they don't believe it anyhow.


[Ray Replies:]

First I need to clarify our use of words again. The word "free" as it is used in "free will" can ONLY mean that a person can think thoughts, make choices, and perform activities completely on his own with nothing CAUSING him to think, choose, or perform.  That's as clear as I can state it. If something, ANYTHING, causes (or let's get stronger--MAKES) a person think a thought or make a choice or perform an action, then he did not do it FREELY. Don't get me wrong; he may have done it voluntarily, but not FREELY.

Our minds have the power and capability to "choose". A choice is merely "what we prefer." Our brains CAN analyze data, weight pros and cons, and MAKE choices. He can, however, do NONE OF THESE FREELY--that is "without a CAUSE." Let me use a softer expression and maybe it will become clearer.  Do you now agree that we are "influenced" to think things, say things, and do things?  OF COURSE WE ARE! Now then, if something influences you to actually DO something, then that influence WAS THE CAUSE. And whatever caused you to do something MADE you do it. And once something is MADE to do something, it is impossible to ever have been avoided!

I realize that this goes a little beyond psychology and theology 101, but it is not impossible to apprehend. It does take considerable time meditating on these things before one becomes COMPLETELY convinced in his own heart and mind that the statements that "ALL is of God" and "God Who operates ALL according to the counsel of own will", are always true under all and every circumstance. Now to your comments:

You suggest that surely God gives us SOME will and SOME choices. Matthew, He gives us THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of choices according to our own wills. It's just that NONE of them are exercised WITHOUT INFLUENCE (or a cause that makes us do as we do). Try some experimenting if you will. Sit still and try to come up with a thought, choice or action that has zero influence.You might think that something even just "pooped into your mind" and that NOTHING caused it. Sure it did. Something did. There are no effects in the physical or mental universe that have no causes.

You use the word "forcing" our foot steps. God never uses that word. But He does use words such as "directs" or "guides". It doesn't take a great deal of energy for God to make people follow the footsteps that He has established for us. The SLIGHTEST motivations in our finances, stomach, social life, egos, etc., will easily cause us to go either this way or that way.

Of course none of this is of any value unless we can establish it in God's Word. Notice what God says regarding our "steps":

"...It is NOT IN MAN...to direct his steps..." (Jer. 10:23).

"A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord DIRECTS HIS STEPS" (Prov. 16:9).

God could have just as easily said: "...the Lord directs HIS WAY" It's all the same to God.

"Man's goings [Heb: steps] ARE OF THE LORD: how can a man then understand HIS OWN WAY? [it matters not if our steps are good or sinful]" (Prov. 20:24).

"For now thou NUMBEREST my steps [THAT'S pretty specific, Matthew]: dost thou NOT watch over my SIN?" (Job 14:16).

"The steps ['steps' is used to symbolize ALL OF MANS DOINGS] OF A MAN ARE ordered [Heb: established] by the Lord" (Psa. 37:23). If ALL man's steps are "established", then of necessity they are ordered by God IN ADVANCE of him taking those ordered steps!

You question God "FORCING people to do evil." God doesn't have to FORCE people to do evil, we do it NATURALLY. It is our NATURE to do evil and commit sins. As I have said: "We are SINNING MACHINES"! God does not FORCE a man to rob a bank. He robs the bank because he is either in a financial bind or is lazy or is lusting for the easy life. Either way, he VOLUNTEERS to rob the bank. Now. . .what INFLUENCES him to rob the bank. Well, we just listed a few reasons. But what specifically at each step of the process causes him to carry out his deed? Thousands of things. Did he bring about the THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of things that influenced (CAUSED) him to follow this path? NO! ABSOLUTE NOT. Where then DID all of it come from? Ultimately we must conclude that it came from GOD! GOD is the Creator. Why even the rotation of earth on its axis CAUSES men to sin!Yes it does. Many people wait until sunset to going about an evening of SINNING--loving the DARKNESS because their deeds are evil.

It's a nice thought that men would come to Jesus and come to God and opening love and adore them. But it's a fantasy. Do we have Scriptural proof of this? HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF VERSES:

"For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, because the disposition of the flesh [the carnal mind] is ENMITY to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for NEITHER IS IT ABLE" (Rom. 8:6-8).

"Not ONE is just--not even one. Not one is understanding. Not ONE is seeking out God. All AVOID Him... Not one is doing kindness: THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE!" (Rom. 3:11-12).

No, God doesn't need to 'FORCE' people to do evil, neither CAN THEY do good! In fact, Jesus plainly said that:

"NO ONE CAN come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing [Greek: DRAGGING] him" (John 6:44).

Oh yes, we DO have a will, but our will does not NATURALLY do the will of God.

You say that "warnings and guidance" are useless if we have no will." But we DO have a will. It's just not "free" from causes, that's all. Matthew, surely if our wills were "FREE," someone, at sometime in the history of billions and billions of humans would have chosen ON HIS OWN, by his FREE WILL to DO GOOD. Don't you think? But what saith the Scriptures? No such thing!

You state: "If God determines our footsteps. . .we have no will." Yes we do. And God even CAUSES our wills to come in line with His. Don't you ever pray: "Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven"?  "Not MY will, but THEY will be done"? If our wills are FREE FROM BEING FORCED OR CAUSED OR MADE to do anything, we couldn't even pray these words. That WHY we work out our own salvation in FEAR AND TREMBLING. Because we, of ourselves, CAN DO NOTHING, as Jesus plainly told us. It is a fearful thing to realize that we can do NOTHING on our own. We only THINK that we can. And if that is what we think then we are fools!

"So that, my beloved, according as you always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, with fear and trembling, be carrying your own salvation into effect, FOR IT IS GOD Who is OPERATING IN YOU TO WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:12-13).

Even the very "words" that Paul is here speaking to the Philippians are inspired OF GOD to CAUSE these people (and us) to RESPOND to his admonition. Words are powerful. Words CAUSE THINGS TO HAPPEN.  That's why God uses words:

"The WORD of God is LIVING and OPERATIVE, and KEEN above any two-edged sword, and PENETRATING up to the parting of soul and spirit... and is a JUDGE of the sentiments and THOUGHTS OF THE HEART" (Heb. 4:12).

No, God is not playing chess with himself. God IS REPRODUCING HIMSELF! God's purpose for creation is far more than a game of chess. On God's chess board EVERYONE is a king and NO ONE gets "check-mated"! We are ALL WINNERS. We will ALL be the SONS OF GOD IN THE FAMILY OF GOD and Paul tells us that after death is abolished God will be ALL IN ALL (I Cor. 15:28).

How can God hold our face in the fire and at the same time hold US guilty for getting burned, you ask? Well, of course, He doesn't hold our face in the fire, but I know what you mean. I will let God answer your question to the point and very succinctly. The ancient king of Assyria was just as proud of his "free will" as most of humanity is today. Notice how God handled him:

"Woe, Assyria!  Club of My anger! And a rod!  He, in their hand, IS MY MENACE!  Among a nation polluted will I SEND HIM.  And against a people, object of MY RAGE, will I INSTRUCT HIM. To loot loot and to plunder plunder, And to place them for tramping, as the clay of the streets.  YET HE, NOT SO is HE planning. And HIS heart, NOT SO is devising. For to exterminate is in HIS HEART, And to cut off nations not a few" (Isa. 10:5-7).

Are you getting the picture? Continuing:

"I will visit evil on the fruit of the INSOLENT HEART OF THE KING OF ASSYRIA, And the high beauty of his eyes. [Why? Why would God do such a thing? Here's why] For, SAYS HE, 'By the vigor of MY HAND I DID IT, And by MY WISDOM, for understanding have I" (Vers. 12-13).

Next notice what God has to say concerning this king of Assyria's sell-appointed proud "free will" heart:

"Will the ax [the Assyrian king] beautify itself over the one [God] hewing with it?   Should the chief's mace magnify itself over the one [God] waving it? As if a club is also waving the one raising it! As if the rod is raising one who is not wood!" (Isa. 10:15).

Yes, Matthew, God clearly shows us how He "operating all according to the counsel of His own will"! God said that He used the Assyrian king to judge other sinful nations just as surely as if the King were an ax in God's own hand! But the beauty of the whole thing is; the king of Assyria didn't think so. He never dreamed that he was but an ax in the HAND OF GOD his Creator! Amazing! The king took credit for all his exploits and great wisdom of warfare. In reality it was ALL OF GOD. And so one day this king was be embarrassed to tears for his great swelling egotistical boasting. God will chastise him and punish him NOT because he could have done otherwise by some supposed free will, but because (1) in this kings heart he THOUGHT he was accomplishing all these things, and (2) because he ACTUALLY DID DO THESE EVIL THINGS. God us JUSTIFIED. Oh yes He is! This king will be a GREAT SON OF GOD one day and he will THANK GOD for using Him to glorify God's name, fame, and greatness.

And, yes, Job did have a choice. He had and made MANY choices during his ordeal. But God sustained Job's integrity and trust in his God. It was ALL of God. Job knew it. And Job PRAISED GOD FOR IT and God blessed Job DOUBLE! I'll be the first to admit that our thoughts are not God's thoughts, but I am beginning to understand them. Praise God that that!

And so, if all is of God (the good and bad), why does He hold us accountable for our sins and deeds? This time I will let Paul answer:

"For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you [Pharaoh] My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth. Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. You will be PROTESTING to me, then, 'Why, then is He [God] STILL BLAMING [us for our sins]? for who has WITHSTOOD HIS INTENTION?'" Paul answers this way: "O man! WHO ARE YOU, TO BE SURE, WHO ARE ANSWERING AGAIN TO GOD? That which is molded [that's us] WILL NOT PROTEST TO THE MOLDER, 'Why do you make me thus [a sinner unable and unwilling by my own fabled 'free will' to ever do what is right]?' Or has not the potter [God] the right over the clay [us mortals] out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:17-21).

I hope it is all beginning to make more sense to you, Matthew. Ask God for a spirit of wisdom and He will surely give to you.

Sincerely,

Ray

Kat:
A compilation of Ray's teaching concerning DEMONS.

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html -------------------------------------

"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the DEVILS are subject unto us through your name. And he said unto them, [I know] I BEHELD Satan as lightning fall from heaven [when and as it was happening through the commands of His disciples]."

Christ’s disciples were filled with JOY over the power that Jesus had given them so that even spirits were subject to them. Jesus had just said that He would thrust Capernaum down from THEIR HEAVEN, their high place in their own mind. Next the disciples report back that they were able to cast down spirits (demons) from men’s minds, from their own heavens. They were excited to tell Jesus what they had done. They had the power to cast down DEMONS from men’s heavens, from out of their MINDS. And Jesus answered them back by saying, YES, I KNOW, I BEHELD Satan (prince of the devils and demons), fall from the heaven of men’s minds while you were doing it! And then even Jesus "rejoiced" (Verse 21).

God has a heaven. It is a SPIRIT REALM. It is where God lives and has His Being. Men too have a heaven. It is likewise, the REALM where they live and have their being—they spiritually live in their own minds, their own heavens.

Notice Prov. 23:7, "For as he THINKS in his heart, SO IS HE." The ‘heart’ is the innermost seat of our deepest emotions, but it is accessed through the MIND. It is what one thinks that determines what one is. When the king of Babylon THOUGHT that he had ascended into heaven in his mind, then that is where HE WAS, "so IS he." But ... BUT, it was man’s heaven and not God’s. No ‘man,’ no ‘carnal man’ has ever ascended into God’s heaven of spirit,

"And NO MAN has ascended up to heaven [God’s heaven], but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN [right at the very time He was speaking these words]" (John 3:13).

Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man’s heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God’s heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.

"And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the EARTH [of man] and the HEAVEN [of man] fled away; and there was found NO PLACE FOR THEM… And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a NEW heaven and a NEW earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." (Rev. 20:11, 16 & 21:1).

It would be mind-boggling enough to think that the entire UNIVERSE could "flee away," but it would be quite another to then suggest that, "there was found NO PLACE FOR THEM." That would be absurd if taken literally. ALL THESE THINGS ARE SPIRITUAL! In the white throne judgment there will be no more a place for the flesh, for the carnal mind, for man’s heaven. There will truly be no place found for them. They will be annihilated in God’s "CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29 & I Cor. 3:15)!

God will give man a new earth and a new heaven, and as for the great sea of carnal, God-defying humanity, "…and there was NO MORE SEA."


http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html --------------------

SATAN AND THE ANGELS DID NOT HAVE “FREE-WILL”

Was Satan once an angelic cherub named “Lucifer” who used his supposed God-given free-will to rebel against God and thus become Satan the Devil?

It’s a fable. It never happened. It is a Christian hoax. Satan was never “good.” Satan was never “truthful.” Satan does not have free-will. Satan was always Satan, and nobody but Satan  “…from the beginning.”

For proof that Satan was never an angelic cherub named “Lucifer,” see Installment IX. I will not take the time to re-write that proof here, however, we will look at Scriptural proof that Satan was Satan from the beginning, and that God created him as he is. Satan did not create himself or free-will himself into the Devil.

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”  (Gen. 1;1).

We all know what the earth is. The heavens, however, is a different matter. The physical heaven is where we find the moon, sun, and stars. But God’s domain is a spiritual heaven.

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world [Gk: ‘age’], against spiritual [Gk: ‘spiritual powers of, or spiritual hosts of, or spiritual forces of’] wickedness in high places [Gk: ‘heavenly places’]” (Eph. 6:12).

So God created the plural “heavens” “in the beginning.” And Paul tells us that there are “principalities and powers” in these “heavenly places” or “celestials” as it is in the Greek. And that these “principalities and powers” are powers, hosts, or forces that are “wicked!”

“For by Him [Jesus] were all things created that are in the heaven [Gk: ‘heavens”—it is plural in the Greek as it is in the Hebrew], and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers ALL things were created by Him, and for Him” (Col. 1:16).

“Principalities and powers” are part of the “all” which Jesus created “in the beginning,” at the beginning of creation. And these “principalities and powers” are “wicked” forces, which we wrestle against. These powers are under authority.  

“But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow does not cast out devils [demons], but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils”  (Matt. 12:24).

Beelzebub is from the Hebrew, Baal [a Phoenician deity] and Zbuwb [a fly], thus the “god fly.” Couple this with the knowledge of where flies hang out, and in parody, Satan was known as the dung god. Fitting, I think. Jesus accepted their use of this title for Satan:

“And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand. And if Satan [referring back to Beelzebub introduced by the Pharisees] cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?”  (Matt. 12:25-26).

Satan never was a cherub possessing free will; neither does he now have free will. Satan is a creature that obeys the commands of his Creator and never talks back. Whenever Jesus told Satan to “get thee behind Me,” Satan got behind Him (Matt. 16:23, Mark 8:33, Luke 4:08).   When God said he could go so far and no further in the trial of Job, then that’s precisely how far he went and no further. When Jesus told Satan “get thee hence… then the devil leaves Him…” (Matt. 4:10). Satan has no “free will” to resist.
v
v
THE KINGDOMS OF SATAN AND HIS ROLE AS ADVERSARY

A note of great importance: Why didn’t God personally, and directly bring all of these trials and calamity of evils upon Job? Why did God USE Satan? Or is this just another case of God “allowing” Satan to test Job? We shall soon see how much God “allows” in the Scriptures, and it will shock most people when they learn the Truth.

At the start of this paper we learned that Satan (Beelzebub) has a “kingdom.” And that it involves the spiritual realm of demons and devils.

But Satan rules over far more than just the realm of demons.


http://bible-truths.com/email9.htm#wrestle ----------------------

[Ray Replies]

Dear Jim:

Well, just like almost everything else Christians adopt as truth, their knowledge of demons and spirits is equally eschew.  First, Jim, always remember the basics:

"...for it is not ours to wrestle with blood and flesh, but with the sovereignties, with the authorities, with the world-mights of this darkness, with the spiritual forces of wickedness among the celestials" (Eph. 6:12).

So it is NOT the physical that is our biggest problem (flesh and blood), being overweight, etc.

Next we must understand that demons are FALSE DOCTRINES -- "doctrines of demons" Paul calls them. So anything that would influence us to believe in, follow, or be persuaded by any such things are demons influences.

So when we speak of "anger" we are in the realm of the spirit. James says, "Whosoever is ANGRY with his brother is a MURDERER"! WOW! "Be angry and SIN NOT -- do not let the sun go down upon your ANGER" is another.  

So being overweight and having uncontrolled anger are two totally different things.  Being overweight is no more a sin than having flat feet. There are thousands of things in the biological makeup of our bodies over which we have and nor can we have control. If one is a total glutton, that is a lust of the flesh, but MANY overweight people eat very little for their size. But anger, that's different. Anger comes from within the man and it can cause one to SIN.

Now then, what do we do with the demons of anger, lust, and other aberrant behavior, cast them out?  Well, if all we had to do was "cast them out," we wouldn't have to "wrestle" with them, would we?

Satan and his demons have their role in God's creation. God Himself has even commissioned LYING spirits to go out and do their dirty work (I Kings 22:22). So demons are real, they are here, and they will be around for a long time.

How should we handle them -- ask the preacher to cast them all out so that we are clean and will never be bothered in any spiritual way again, not to mention having a perfect size body? No, here's what God tells us we should do after telling us that we DO WRESTLE against these forces:

"Therefore take up the panoply [armor] of God that you may be enabled to WITHSTAND in the wicked day, and having effected all, to STAND.  STAND, then, girded about your loins with TRUTH [remember I said demons are FALSE doctrines], with the cuirass of righteousness put on, and your feet sandaled with the readiness of the evangel [gospel] of peace; with all taking up the large shield of FAITH, by which you WILL BE ABLE TO EXTINGUISH ALL THE FIERY ARROWS OF THE WICKED ONE."

So the truth is that we continue to wrestle and do battle with them -- it is good for us to do so, it MAKES US STRONG in the TRUTH and in our reliance of God's spiritual armor to protect us.

Hope that helps your understanding a little better.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2600.0.html ------

ALL of God's created celestial beings are "messengers."  Angel means messenger. From that Perspective, Jesus is a Messenger (Mal. 3:1-2).  If these messengers are bad, we might refer to them as devils, demons, OR adversaries, but they are STILL MESSENGERS.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2540.0.html ------

The only spirits "roaming around" are demons, not the spirits of DEAD people.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1910.0.html -------

    There is "possession" and there is "obsession."  Many people are obsessed with demons and evil spirits rather than being actually possessed and totally out of control mentally.

    Catholic exorcism is more superstition than Scriptural.  Protestant ministers try to shout and SCREAM them out of people.  I had only a few personal experiences with people who were demonized.  With one elderly woman we prayed and one by one Jesus casted out a half dozen or so demons--each with his own name, I might add.

    The truth is that we "wrestle against such spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph. 6:12).  It is part of our Christian walk of faith.

    The world is filled with "spirits of antichrist."  Many Christians worship these spirits.  I cast out dozens and dozens of these spirits of antichrist on our bible-truth.com site, and many pastors, theologians, and Christians hate and despise me for doing it. They love these evil spirits. But always remember, that if you have the Spirit of God in you, then:

    "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world" (I John 4:3-4).


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7769.0.html -----------

Could you please comment on Henry W. Wright's  assertion that all physical illness has its origins in sin?

Dear Reader:  Certainly.  It is an amazing thing to me how that Christians will often spend many hours, years, and whole lifetimes, researching and writing books, etc., using as a premise something that can be totally invalidated by 30 seconds in the Scriptures.

Jesus Christ "knew NO sin" (II Cor. 5:20). Contrary to those deranged heretics who think this verse teaches that Jesus was the very personification of sin.  No, Jesus was "WITHOUT sin" (Heb. 4:15).  Now then, did Jesus ever experience sickness or disease?  Yes, matter of fact, He did.  Isaiah is a prophecy concerning Jesus Christ, and here is what it says:

Isa 53:3 He is despised959 and rejected2310 of men;376 a man376 of sorrows,4341 and acquainted3045 with grief:2483...." Strong's #2483, choliy, SICKNESS, DISEASE."

So much for Wright's assertion that "...all physical illness has its origins in SIN."

See also:  Luke 4:23--Why would Christ the Great Physician need to be "healed?"

Notice also:

Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents [that is 'sinned to cause this blindness']: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

God be with you,

Ray


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2862.0.html ---------------

Who makes people sick God or satan?  Preachers say God is all powerful but then give satan all the credit when something bad happens.    

    Dear Reader:

    I can give you the simple answer, but few there be who [1] believe it or [2] understand it.
    "ALL is of God," but God never lies, never temps people, and never causes people to sin.
    Men lie, and men are tempted by their own lusts, and men sin VOLUNTARYILY from their heart.
    
    Yes, Satan causes disease, Luke 13:16, but only becuase it is in God's plan and purpose that there be disease in the first place.

    God be with you,
    Ray


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2470.0.html ---------------

Ray;
        Are ministries, dedicated to the casting out of demons, lagitimate?  Is every sickness a demon?    
 
   Dear Rod:
    There is no way that I can answer a question like that without knowing all ministers.  I am sure that most of them are dedicated to whatever it is that they do.  No, all sickiness is not a demon, however, these messengers can be responsible for bringing on sickness and disease.

    God be with you,
    Ray


http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#stop ------------------------------

Demons do not want you to trust God for the salvation of all humanity, and so they are placing doubts in your mind about everything.

God is quite capable of saving all humanity and all of the heavenly host including all demonic forces.  He will not loose ANYTHING that He has created for a purpose. They will ALL fulfill His purpose. You, Tina, have a purpose in God's Kingdom. There are evil forces that want to discourage you realizing that calling and purpose. I will pray that God will rebuke these evil forces causing you discouragement.  Remember, it is through MUCH tribulation that we enter the Kingdom of God.  

Trust me, Tina, God is not punishing you for not going to your husband's church. Study and pray daily for God's guidance in your life. Listen to GOD'S WORD and not to demons whispering in your ear!  Let me know how else I can help you, Tina. You will be all right!

Sincerely,

Ray

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