Revelations

[winner08]

Among many discussions me and my friend were having one was about the book of revelation. I know what Ray says about it how we are the beast and how the battle of armmaggton is a spiritual battle. But in order for mankind to accept God we will have to be brought to our knees. Everthing we see hear and beleive in will have to be destroyed before we turn to God. Now I understand some are already there but the majority is not and they wont just accept God easily. Therefore I was wondering about the 7 seals and the 7 thounders and the 3 woes the plauges the third of the grass and trees burned up a third of the oceans being poisioned and the sea life being killed then the rivers and streams our drinking water being poision the sun only shinning part of the day killing our food and animals then the wars that will break out. The destruction of the United Stated, The united Strates of Europe , China and Russia the Middleastern countries Britian Canada, New zeleand austraila and the rest of our allies. Revelations speaks of the destruction of all these countries starting with the U.S. How can all this just be metaphores and symblos. Certain things have to happen littraly in order to bring about mankinds belief in God. Like I said mankind will have to be brought down past his knees befor he truns to God to help him up. I mean there's no anti Christ who is a political leader and the ruler of a new world order and the religous leader (pope) the cathloic church who insits that they are the one ture religon. That the world leader will make this church the one world religon and if we do not follow it we will be put to death or jailed or you can't buy or sell goods. It's really not that far fetch. Just look at the taliban in afganastain If you refuse to do as they say thats your butt. But here is a perfect exsample of a government enforecing a religous power. a beleif system. To me this all seems plusable. I just don't see the sysmbolism in these things. Now I am not saying there are no symbolism in Revelations. It just seems to me that alot of revelations is littaral. I mean the word came close to this kind of sitiuation doing ww 2. If Hitler would have won and made a church the state religon then put it into law that the world had to follow this or be destroyed It is not that far fetch.

                     Darren

[Kat]

Hi Darren,

Revelations speaks of the destruction of all these countries starting with the U.S. How can all this just be metaphores and symblos. Certain things have to happen literaly in order to bring about mankinds belief in God. Like I said mankind will have to be brought down past his knees befor he truns to God to help him up.

The destruction that is spoken of is talking about the spiritual destruction of the carnal flesh, just like the Elect are going through now.  Look at this e-mail.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1884.0.html ------

"Destruction" has absolutely nothing to do with someone not being saved. In fact, "destruction" is an absolute PRE-REQUISITE to being saved.  Jesus came SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of saving those who are "destroyed."

The words: "destrouction," "perish" and "lost" all come from the very same ONE Greek word:  "apollumi."  In Matt. 10:28 where Jesus says to "fear Him Who is able to DESTROY both soul and body..." the word for destroy is "apollumi." In Matt. 18:24 where Jesus says that His Father is not will any any of these little ones should PERISH..." the word for perish is "apollumi."  In Matt. 15:24 where Jesus says that He was send to the LOST sheep of the house of Israel only" the word for lost is "apollumi."  Dstruction, perish, and lost, all come from the same one Greek word "apollumi."

Now then, with that said, what did Jesus say concerning all those who are "apollumi?"  Here is what He said: "For the Son of man is come to SAVE that which is APOLLUMI [lost]" (Matt. 18:11).
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If you are wondering how Jesus could bring people to their knees, Jesus Christ will not be literally beating people into submission with His rod of iron (which is also a symbol).
Look what it says in Ezekiel how people will respond just at the sight of Him.

Eze 21:5  That all flesh may know that I the LORD have drawn forth my sword out of his sheath: it shall not return any more.
v. 6  Sigh therefore, thou son of man, with the breaking of thy loins; and with bitterness sigh before their eyes.
v. 7  And it shall be, when they say unto thee, Wherefore sighest thou? that thou shalt answer, For the tidings; because it cometh: and every heart shall melt, and all hands shall be feeble, and every spirit shall faint, and all knees shall be weak as water: behold, it cometh, and shall be brought to pass, saith the Lord GOD.

Look at what Ray says in this email, especially the last part.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3212.0.html------

Listen carefully:  This "war in heaven" is NOT LITERAL; it does not take place
in OUTER SPACE; it does not happen IN THE THRONE ROOM OF GOD; it does
not take place chronologically AFTER the wonder of a woman in Rev. 12:1, but BEFORE
the beast comes up out of the sea in 13:1; it does not interpret itself within its own verse; it
is explained by OTHER Scripture; it is a SYMBOL; and it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which is the "spirit of prophecy"(19:10) and therefore is the "WORDS OF SPIRIT" of Jesus (John 6:63) for which we also need a SECOND WITNESS, etc., etc., etc.

If Revelation is a literal account of the events to happen in chronological order, then read a book by Hal Lindsey or Paul Crouch and you will understand the Book of Revelation--surely I josh!
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lorrie]

Hi Darren-I see the word of our Father on 2 planes one is literal the other as spiritual, and i believe there are many levels- i do not read the word in the same way i did 10 years ago i have come up several levels,Mr Smith has given us another level up and there will be more levels higher than this.I believe this because our Father is infinite, we will always be learning.

There was a fellow many hundreds of tears ago who realised that there is currents in the seas by reading psalm 8-8.And i see on a literal level the fullfillment of joel 2-8 'they fall upon the sword, they are not wounded'.
As we know the miltary has body armour that can protect from being hit by bullets.And yes it does have a spiritual meaning too i am sure.

The word of our Father uses colorful language to express an idea.

And our Father uses symbols that i understand to explain a literal and spiritual truth.This is what i see.

[winner08]

Once again I see where I need to slow down and not get caught up in these heavey conversations with my friend. I really don't understand revelations. Some of it I do get, most I don't. I fear that I won't know these things even though I try desperatly to understand. Until the Lord is ready to give me the wisdom. I always said that revelations was a hard thing to get. Well at least for me it is. Probaly not for you guys. Thanks Kat for giving me some insite on this subject. and Jaguar thanks also for sharing you thoughts. For now I will study the teachings of Christ and pray He will grant me the wisdom to understand His words. Mainly the Gospels. I do understand quite a bit on this matter. It's must be God's will.     

                                           Thanks.  Darren