> General Discussions
Who are the Called?
rdk5215:
Greg,
having choices is NOT freewill. freewill is the ability to make a choice of your own with NO external involvement and that's not possible.
And as you go through BT you'll find that God does choose from the beginning a "chosen" BUT; eventually everyone will be chosen.
It's not a matter of some being left out but more of when they'll be let in. We have no ability on our own to do what is right, we are carnal.
But it is Christ's working in us that give us the ability to walk that path. And we can't come to Christ unless God draws (DRAGS) us to him.
So we've been picked out before we can do right. The carnal mind is enmity to God, and there i none righteous no not one. So make a choice
is our ability but it most come because of external circumstances... and if it is a righteous choice it can ONLY come from God.
God Bless and give us eyes to see and ear to hear, Ron
musicman:
--- Quote from: gasman on July 02, 2008, 09:05:38 PM --- ;D
I don't believe I said all that Kat. But I certainly don't agree that we have no choices to make, otherwise how do we overcome or put to death the flesh? I believe that we are in training to rule. We grow in favour through obedience just like Jesus did, so there has to be choices & a measure of free will. God does not dictate all my choices otherwise why is there any judgement? I haven't read any of Ray's postings & will en devour to do so as I find the time, but I don't believe I am wrong in this. However I am open to 'being' wrong. I don't have all truth nor profess to. The evidence of my studies is that we do have free will. How can you be trained to rule if all your choices have been predetermined? If Jesus said he would that non would perish then how can some be elect & some not? Our God is not a mean spirited being picking & choosing who goes in & who doesn't just on his whim. He doesn't have deficiencies in his character like we do & is no respecter of persons.
In my understanding the destination has been set that we can all achieve. The measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. We can all be the 'huios', the adopted ones. But how is this determined? By our actions & decisions. What else?
It doesn't matter how many scriptures you want to throw at me. All scriptural truths must be consistent with the character & nature of our God. He loves us & wants us all to succeed. At this stage you cannot convince me otherwise.
Just so you know, I'm not offended by your challenge.
God Bless
Greg
--- End quote ---
I'm not throwing the scriptures at you, but I hope to remind you of what the Good Book says.
Jer 10:23
. . . . . I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Jer. 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil?
Rom. 3:11
Not one is seeking out God
Rom. 2:4
“the goodness of God leads you to repentance”
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.
John 6:44
No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing (dragging) him.
Eph. 1:4
He (God) chooses us in Him (Christ)
Rom. 11:7
What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused.
Rom 11:8
God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day.
Phil. 2:13
For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Rom. 12:4
God parts to each the measure of faith.
Acts 13:47-48
For this is what the Lord has commanded us: I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth. When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal (eionian) life believed.
Pro 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps. (We have plans, not God. He already knows.)
Ecc 1:15
If something is crooked, it can’t be made straight: if something isn’t there, it can’t be counted.
Isa 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Pr. 20:24 Man’s steps are ordained by the Lord; how then can man understand his way?
Job 14:16
For now thou numberest my steps dost thou not watch over my sin?
Isa 55:11
So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Pr. 20:24 Man’s steps are ordained by the Lord; how then can man understand his way?
Job 14:16
For now thou numberest my steps dost thou not watch over my sin?
Rom. 9:18, 21
Therefore hath He mercy on whom he will hath mercy, and who he will he hardeneth. . . . . . .Hath not the Potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Ex. 4:11
And the Lord said unto him, who hath made man’s mouth? Or who maketh the dumb, or deaf or the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?
We make choices. Those choices are caused.
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: gasman on July 02, 2008, 09:05:38 PM --- ;D
I don't believe I said all that Kat. But I certainly don't agree that we have no choices to make, otherwise how do we overcome or put to death the flesh? I believe that we are in training to rule. We grow in favour through obedience just like Jesus did, so there has to be choices & a measure of free will. God does not dictate all my choices otherwise why is there any judgement? I haven't read any of Ray's postings & will en devour to do so as I find the time, but I don't believe I am wrong in this. However I am open to 'being' wrong. I don't have all truth nor profess to. The evidence of my studies is that we do have free will. How can you be trained to rule if all your choices have been predetermined? If Jesus said he would that non would perish then how can some be elect & some not? Our God is not a mean spirited being picking & choosing who goes in & who doesn't just on his whim. He doesn't have deficiencies in his character like we do & is no respecter of persons.
In my understanding the destination has been set that we can all achieve. The measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. We can all be the 'huios', the adopted ones. But how is this determined? By our actions & decisions. What else?
It doesn't matter how many scriptures you want to throw at me. All scriptural truths must be consistent with the character & nature of our God. He loves us & wants us all to succeed. At this stage you cannot convince me otherwise.
Just so you know, I'm not offended by your challenge.
God Bless
Greg
--- End quote ---
Hi! Greg
Kath and Bobby are right brother, man has no free-will, he makes choices but those choices are made as the result of what God has decided not you. Ray goes to enormous lengths to clear this issue up as he does on the issue of eternal punishment.
I thought the same as you, and it took quite a bit for Ray's teachings to sink in but once you get the picture it becomes very clear and obvious. For every effect there has to be a cause and that is a universal law, and it cannot be denied. Read his writings on "The Myth Of Free Will Exposed" parts A,B,C,D they are excellent and all Scripture proven so there is no Babylonian brain washing involved. You should also give his series on Hell the same attention because that truly calls you out from Babylon. Unless you hear that message clearly you will be stuck in tradition, bondage and Babylonian heresies.
I understand how you feel at the moment, I felt the same, but I can see clearly now. The advice you have been given is good though put rather bluntly by Bobby, which is usually my style.
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
Linny:
Dear gasman,
I'm afraid I'll have to agree with Bobby on this one. It has been several months ago, but as I recall, to join this forum you had to be a reader of Bible-Truths and agree with the ideals taught here. I hope you will go in and read and learn and decide if you are like-minded with us.
About the original topic, we are SO happy to have been called out of the church and to have found this great fellowship of like-minded believers!
Lin
EKnight:
Thank you for all that scripture musicman, good stuff. I wrote it all down it a notebook and titled it "Free Will? I think not" and gave it to my husband. Some scriptures are so clear, it's undeniable. When I first started reading them to my husband, he was like well that was before Christ so maybe things changed after that. First I said God changes NOT and then proceeded to read those scriptures that were from the new testament. But I guess when God opens his eyes, that is when he will see.
Eileen
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