My Bible

[EKnight]

I have been reading Ray's material since March or April.  I noticed he quoted the KJV, so I went out and bought one. Many times I have looked up some of the quotes to see what came before and after it so that I could get a better idea of what the subject matter was.  Often times Ray would paraphrase or explain a given quote or define a word that KJV didn't use correctly (said Ray), then I would look in my bible which is The New American Bible.  It is a Catholic bible.  Now I know there are books in there that only Catholics use but I just don't read those.  Anyway, almost every time I look up a quote there, it agrees with Ray more often than not. For instance, they use the word ages instead of eternity a lot more than KJV.  I was just reading lake/10:

            BILLY GRAHAM DEFENDS GOD AGAINST EVIL

I don't mean to continually pick on Billy Graham, as he is, after all, a fine and respected man. Nonetheless, he does personify fundamental religion, and he does teach heresy. I heard Billy Graham deliver a message televised to the entire world, from the National Cathedral in Washington, D.C. shortly after September 11th, wherein he stated that, God is not the Creator of evil. I also have an old newspaper clipping from a Billy Graham question and answer column in which he again denied that God is the Creator of evil. He quoted Habakkuk 1:13 as proof of his statement. I think is will be helpful to check this Scripture to see if it indeed backs up Billy Graham's assertion:

    "Thou [God] art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?" (KJV—I left in all the archaic English and italics to show added words not found in the manuscripts).

Ray goes on to say this:


    I apologize for the fact that the translation nearest to the implied meaning of this verse that I could find is The Living Bible, which is not necessarily among the most precise or accurate translations in many areas. However, sometimes they really do nail the obvious intention of the verse. And yes, I realize that is a value judgment on my part. But anyway, take a look at their rendition of this verse:

    "We are wicked, but they far more! Will you [God], Who cannot allow sin in any form, stand idly by while they swallow us up? Should You be silent while the wicked destroy those who are better than they?" (Habakkuk 1:13, The Living Bible).

Here is what my bible says:

Habbakkuk 1:13

Too pure are your eyes to look upon evil, and the sight of misery you cannot endure.  Why, then, do you gaze on the faithless in silence while the wicked man devours one more just than himself?

This looks to me more like the Living Bible that Ray liked better for this quote than KJV.

And one more thing, my bible clearly labels all the parables as parables. 

I think that I will continue to use my bible as my reference but will also compare it to Ray's teaching and that of the KJV.

I guess I am just posting because I was actually surprised by it.

Eileen

[Roy Monis]

Dear Eileen

I have the 1901 ASV the NASV and the KGV and there is no question about the fact that God abhors evil but what we are concerned with here is how did evil appear on the scene in the first place? It had to be created or Someone had to create it for it to exist and all three versions of the Bible agree on the fact that God created it. The following quotes are from all three what the others say I have no idea as I cannot afford more than the three at the moment.

"7.. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things." (Isa.45:7).
1901 American Standard Version, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1994.

"7.. The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these." (Isa.45:7).
The New American Standard Bible, 1995 Update, (La Habra, California: The Lockman Foundation) 1996.

"7.. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isa.45:7).
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

"9..Out of the ground the Lord God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." (Gen.2:9).
The New American Standard Bible, 1995 Update, (La Habra, California: The Lockman Foundation) 1996.

Who created the tree of good and evil and caused it to grow in the garden if not God?

Now according to the Latest Strong's concordance; calamity and evil come under the same #7451 so they mean the same thing.

Ray tells us that God created Satan for a special purpose in His overall plan which means that evil has an important role to play in that plan but that doesn't stop God from abhorring it. Regrettably Billy's argument doesn't stand up to the critique.

Before closing allow me to thank you for the information that the NASV Bible is a Catholic Bible, I never knew that, but I use it quite a lot and find it is a more accurate rendering than the KJV. Some blatant errors in the KJV are correctly translated in there, one example of many being Rom.8:28.

Hope this helps

God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

[David]

Great post Roy.
I recently had an email exchange with a fervant critic of Rays teachings. This person believes in eternal hell, the trinity, getting yourself saved etc etc.
I pointed those scriptures out that you've posted here along with a few more so show that God does indeed create evil. I didn't add any comment at all other than "here's the scriptures that prove God creates evil"..............he called me a pagan 

[Roy Monis]

Thank you David

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

[winner08]

WOW Roy from the UK. Man what more can be said on that matter??

                                     Darren

[chuckt]

Ray tells us that God created Satan for a special purpose in His overall plan which means that evil has an important role to play in that plan but that doesn't stop God from abhorring it. Regrettably Billy's argument doesn't stand up to the critique.

Greetings all.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

i often thought that this means it greived God that he had made men ""flesh"" and that it greived him to know what this fleshman will have to endure on earth and what this fleshman does while on earth.


thoughts?

chuckt

[OBrenda]

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. [/b]

i often thought that this means it greived God that he had made men ""flesh"" and that it greived him to know what this fleshman will have to endure on earth and what this fleshman does while on earth.

Hi chuckt

I'm probably being simplistic, but it seems to me like a parent watching our own children do evil, in that moment you wish you never had given birth to them because you are responsible for bringing them into the world/earth. Even if you are a parent of a mass murderer, you hate the evil part of them???    But there still remains unconditional Love for them, and hope for change?

[Samson]

Hello Roy and Paul,

                          I especially like the reasoning expressed regarding the passage in Genesis chapter two in reference to the fact that God created the tree of good and evil, if he created the tree where Evil could be learned, then he had to have created Evil. That seems to be a good place to start when conversing with someone who is interested in listening. According to Ray, the Hebrew word RA is used more than 300 times in the Old Testament and their is a different Hebrew word that's used for calamity in reference to Isaiah. 45:7, so it should always be rendered Evil, but the approach of discussing God creating Evil using the passage in Genesis is a good one.

                                     Your Brother, Samson