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Author Topic: Hell, Satan's Heaven?  (Read 20172 times)

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hillsbororiver

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Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« on: June 25, 2008, 10:03:50 AM »

This thought occurred to me again as I was reading the following "Email to Ray" from a concerned Christian;

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7544.0.html

The people who are presently deceived by the hell doctrine really have to do some extreme thought contortions to be able to rationalize what exactly Satan and his demons are doing in hell, are they being punished or are they doing exactly what they love doing, tormenting mankind.

Even as a child it had often crossed my mind; "Why does God give a fiery kingdom to the devil to do what he pleases with human beings?" Why should Satan have eternity to do what he loves?

According to the hell proponents Satan is the one who inspires sinful activity, he is the instigator, the facilitator of evil activity, do they ever ask themselves why Satan who was supposedly created a perfect being who decided to challenge God gets a kingdom of his own to torture people who were not born perfect, who actually started life at a huge disadvantage in comparison to a perfect angelic being?

I have discussed this with a few Christians and the premise I proposed did little other than upset them, of course I then changed the subject in the hope they would further (prayerfully) contemplate this question on their own at some future point.

Peace,

Joe 

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Kent

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Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2008, 03:34:50 PM »

I dont understand it. I dont understand how they can believe this contradiction, and I dont understand why they get so upset (angry!) when it is pointed out to them.

I know why it is, but I dont understand it. I hope you know what i mean by that.

IMO they may as well call themselves satanists, since they give him all of the glory and power. ???
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EKnight

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Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2008, 04:35:06 PM »

I was reading on some site this guy who was trying to defunct Ray's teaching of aions and aionios etc etc, and how eternal is in the bible yada yada yada.  And I thought to myself, why would anyone want to go out of their way to prove that eternal is in the bible just to defend the doctrine of eternal punishment (this person didn't necessarily agree with the "burning torture eternally" doctrine.  Nonetheless, the teaching is NOT GOOD NEWS so why would you want to perpetuate it???

Eileen
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Firefly

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Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2008, 07:25:33 PM »

I think that they are brainwashed in a way and they are scared to believe something different. I know when I first started to hear about no hell I thought "oh it's another cult". I had been so indoctrinated with the hell concept all my life and then it was layered on super thick from ages 18 to 37 when I was a "born again christian". I was really scared when my husband told me he didn't believe in hell anymore. I thought he was into a cult and I don't really know what else the fear was about. I just know I was really scared. But what you said Joe about Satan getting a place to torture humans makes no sense. I can't believe I could not see the absurdity in it for all those years. I thank God He has shown me these truths.

Lori  :)
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gmik

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Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2008, 08:47:47 PM »

If you contort your thinking long enough than it is easy and doesn't feel like you are "contorting" :D.  Believing the lie just gets easier and you don't have to "think".  Remember in that other post about polls and catholics will fight to the death to say they are catholic but don't have a clue what it teaches.

Too many people are lazy to get in the bible so they just parrot what they think others are saying.  Then if they do check it out, their eyes are blinded anyway, and they just don't get it!

But why oh why would ANYONE want that to be true??????
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Robin

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Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2008, 09:46:25 PM »

Quote
Why would anyone want to go out of their way to prove that eternal is in the bible just to defend the doctrine of eternal punishment?

Quote
But why oh why would ANYONE want that to be true?

That nails it doesn't it?

Luke 6:
 27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
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Chris R

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Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2008, 10:05:30 PM »

Satan was made perfectly for the purpose in which he was created, The Apostle Paul knew this when he said  "deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". Without such a creation How is it that men can receive salvation?

Why was it that Paul, had a messenger of SATAN sent to "buffet" him? If not for his ultimate Good?

Satan is nothing more than what God made him, and God made him perfectly for the job!

It is God who formed the crooked serpent, It is God who created Evil, I [God] form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

But oh Lord who has believed our report?

Few indeed....

Peace

Chris R


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OBrenda

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Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2008, 10:54:13 PM »

I guess they see Satan as a God, have they considered he may be able to win?
(Now that would be Scary)  If Satan can't win his idea of stealing souls, why doesn't God just crush him now?


This is an amazing scripture, is the destruction of the flesh physical death, or is it chastisment?
Satan was made perfectly for the purpose in which he was created, The Apostle Paul knew this when he said  "deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". Without such a creation How is it that men can receive salvation?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 10:59:47 PM by OBrenda »
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Kat

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Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2008, 11:04:28 PM »


Hi Joe,

It's all so ironic what the church teaches.  They have it all turned around, upside down and backwards.

God is sovereign...  but He can not save His own creation...

God is totally love...  but He will sent most of humanity to burn for all eternity...

God is all powerful...  but Satan has totally thwarted His plan...

God is all knowing...  but we have free will so He doesn't know for sure what we will do...

They have been caused to believe all of these untruths, they are deceived!

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, the ancient serpent called Adversary and Satan, who is deceiving the whole inhabited earth... (CLV)

Do the deceived know they are deceived, of course not.  

John 1:5  And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

So until this blinded deceived church age is over, until the return of Jesus Christ, we just have to hold on to the truth we have been given.  Because the day will come when all eyes shall be opened.

Isa 35:4  Say to those who have an anxious heart, "Be strong; fear not! Behold, your God will come with vengeance, with the recompense of God. He will come and save you."
v.5  Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf unstopped;

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Martinez

  • Guest
Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2008, 12:55:56 AM »


What really bugs me about it is how obvious it is that Christ hates hypocrisy, but while you assert that hell is reall you accuse Christ of being a hypocrite!

Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47  And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If you point out a verse like this to them and say, this is how God treats His enemies, they usually just turn around and say, no, that's just for you to follow so He show you mercy at "The Judgment".
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Paul

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Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2008, 01:13:34 AM »

I was reading on some site this guy who was trying to defunct Ray's teaching of aions and aionios etc etc, and how eternal is in the bible yada yada yada.  And I thought to myself, why would anyone want to go out of their way to prove that eternal is in the bible just to defend the doctrine of eternal punishment (this person didn't necessarily agree with the "burning torture eternally" doctrine.  Nonetheless, the teaching is NOT GOOD NEWS so why would you want to perpetuate it???

Eileen

Just before I came across a comment on YouTube where someone expressed this sentiment, but in fewer words:

Why would Christians WANT eternal punishment in the Bible?
 
 ******* weird and stupid


Such a simple truth  :)

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musicman

  • Guest
Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2008, 01:58:33 AM »

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

He said the F word!!!!!!!!!!!



OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!





I'm tellin!!!!
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2008, 09:45:41 AM »

Rev 21:3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men and he will dwell with them and they shall be his people and God himself shall be with them and be their God.
 
Rev 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

How does one fit these verses into an eternal hell, it does not say some men, some tears, some sorrow, some crying, some pain but a very definitive "shall be no more" period.

Praise God!

Isn't it amazing that once our eyes are opened to this and we see the real Light how very obvious it is? But at one time we all were blind to it to some degree or another, without His grace, without His Spirit we would also be stumbling about and parroting this doctrine of devils. All glory goes to God!

Peace

Joe
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2008, 09:06:47 PM »

We are fortunate and blessed to know that the Christian hell, Satan's supposed kingdom does not really exist at all. But we know Satan is real and he has a kingdom, the true location of his kingdom is the last place our brothers and sisters who are still in Babylon would ever even look for it. How perfect is that for an effective deception?

THE THRONE OF SATAN THE DEVIL ALSO LOCATED

Now then, as the false apostles, and lying Jews, and synagogue of Satan are all located in the Church, where do you suppose we would find Satan’s throne, and Satan’s dwelling place to be located? Yes, that’s right: In the Church. Here is the Scriptural proof found in the messages to the church at Smyrna and Pergamos:

"Fear none of those things which you shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison…" (Rev. 2:10).

"I know your works and where you dwell, even where [the same place where] Satan’s seat [Greek: throne] is… were Satan [also] dwells" (Rev. 2:13).

Satan cannot imprison members of the Church unless Satan is in the Church. His throne is in the Church. His dwelling place is in the Church.. His synagogue is in the Church.

And think not that Satan merely makes an occasional visit to the Church. No, Satan is permanently in the Church until God removes him. The Greek word from which the translators give us "dwelleth" in the KJV is kataoideo, and it’s meaning is: "To house permanently" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, page 136). Satan not only has his false apostles in the Church, and his congregation of unconverted lying Jews in the Church, and his synagogue in the Church, and his very throne in the Church, but Satan himself dwells permanently in the Church.

WHERE IS PERGAMOS TODAY?

Why would God choose the church of Pergamos/Pergamum as a physical type of the spiritual city where Satan really dwells and has his throne? We read this historical account of Pergamum:

"Pergamum, founded no later than 399 BC, became the capital city of the Roman province in Asia giving the traveler the impression of a royal city, the home of authority. Located about 60 miles north of Smyrna and 15 miles from the Aegean Sea, Pergamum was a center of learning, medicine, and religious books. The library, rivaling the Alexandrian library, drew many princes, priests, and scholars. Noted for marble carving, it excelled the other six cities in architectural beauty."

A royal city of authority with maybe the greatest library in the world. A city of learning, medicine, and religion. More excellent than all of the other Six Church Cities. Clearly, this city had all of the physical attributes that would make it suitable for the throne and dwelling place of Satan.

But remember: Revelation is a signified book of symbols that stand for spiritual things. The physical city of Pergamus was only a symbolic representation of something higher, something more profound, something of grand proportions. Satan does not reside or dwell or have his throne and his synagogue in West Asia in a demolished old city name Pergamus? Pergamus mean fortified. It comes from the word purgos (Strong’s #4444, which means "burgh; a tower or castle" page 219). Satan dwells (permanently resides) in the Church. But Satan dwells in a city that is, was, and will be. We will later identify this city described in Rev. 2:13.

This then brings us to Satan’s final and grandest achievement in The Church—the very "DEPTH of Satan." Something more evil and vile than anything ever conceived of by man or demon! But not to worry—for if you have been chosen to understand these things, then you will,

"Come OUT of her My people…" and "He that overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he shall be My SON" (Rev. 18:4, & 21:7).

http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html

His Peace to you,

Joe


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KristaD

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Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2008, 09:13:32 PM »

You know I never looked at it that way. Why would God give satan such pleasure for all eternity??? That makes no sense at all. I always knew that the heaven and hell one shot at life concept seemed totally unfair and just plain ridiculous for an all knowing God but I never saw that simple aspect of it. Thank you for sharing that Joe, a truly inspired thought and I will be using that one ;).
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2008, 09:27:56 PM »


I know why it is, but I dont understand it. I hope you know what i mean by that.


Hi Kent,

I know exactly what you mean, God addresses this Himself;


Isa 28:21  For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Peace,

Joe
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2008, 09:31:45 PM »

You know I never looked at it that way. Why would God give satan such pleasure for all eternity??? That makes no sense at all. I always knew that the heaven and hell one shot at life concept seemed totally unfair and just plain ridiculous for an all knowing God but I never saw that simple aspect of it. Thank you for sharing that Joe, a truly inspired thought and I will be using that one ;).

Hi Krista,

An amazing thing for sure, this certainly is an interesting journey He has us on, isn't it?

Peace,

Joe
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rjsurfs

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Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2008, 10:05:48 PM »

Hello All,

I have questioned how much if at all Satan is "pleasured".

As Ray points out in the LoF Part 9 that Satan always shows up when needed:
Quote
It was GOD’S idea to severely try Job, not Satan’s. But Satan took strict orders from God as to just how he could try Job. Satan got permission from God at each and every step of this severe trying of Job. Do we think God does it differently today? Do we think Satan now has "free reign"- "free will?" Do we think that God "changes?" Nonsense: "For I am the LORD, I change not…" (Mal. 3:6).

David prayed for God to use Satan in judging his enemies:

    "Set you a wicked man over him: and let SATAN stand at his right hand" (Psalm 109:6).

Are not these activities of Satan necessary? Does God use Satan for no good purpose? Then why can’t men see that God also CREATED Satan for these very purposes?

Satan takes orders from God so well that I have wondered what feelings if any he may experience... however we do read:
Luk 22:31  And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Satan did "desire"... the Greek root is ask, beg, call for, crave, desire... he desired to put Peter to trial.  Jesus declared the outcome when he prayed for Peter but it certainly appears that Satan has wants and desires... which considering the end of the age as we have been shown I find it very interesting.

Bobby

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kweli

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Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2008, 06:01:03 AM »

IMO they may as well call themselves satanists, since they give him all of the glory and power.
And they dont get that too

Praise God!

Isn't it amazing that once our eyes are opened to this and we see the real Light how very obvious it is? But at one time we all were blind to it to some degree or another, without His grace, without His Spirit we would also be stumbling about and parroting this doctrine of devils. All glory goes to God!

Peace
Amen
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Hell, Satan's Heaven?
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2008, 08:33:31 AM »


I have questioned how much if at all Satan is "pleasured".



Hi Bobby,

Good question, the way I am perceiving that is Satan has an insatiable desire to control and consume man's carnal mind. Perhaps it is similar to what a lion feels when hungry and sees his prey on the horizon, stalks it, overcomes it, consumes it and then he experiences that temporary satisfaction of an appetite being filled.

Since he eats the "dust of the earth" (that's us) there must be some pleasure he derives from overcoming us, just like we are satisfied after a juicy steak dinner.

Peace,

Joe
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