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Author Topic: "Specially"  (Read 13037 times)

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joyful1

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2008, 11:31:48 AM »


v. 6  Sigh therefore, son of man, with a breaking heart, and sigh with bitterness before their eyes.
v. 7  And it shall be when they say to you, "Why are you sighing?' that you shall answer, "Because of the news; when it comes, every heart will melt, all hands will be feeble, every spirit will faint, and all knees will be weak as water. Behold, it is coming and shall be brought to pass,' says the Lord GOD."

so true! good verse, Kat!
thanks for bringing this up, Paul....great review!
Joyce :)
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2008, 11:40:07 AM »

A google search of ["all, specially"] churned up several instances of sentences with construction similar to the verse, denoting not exclusivity but inclusivity.  In truth, I quit looking after I'd found a few.  A search on ["all, especially"] did turn up more hits, the majority of which matched the meaning of the verse in unrelated contexts.

Even if you assume that current usage of 'specially' is sloppy or ungrammatical, test it on a group of 10-year-olds.  "I have food for everybody, but specially for the birthday girl."  Some may complain that it's unfair, but I am betting all of them will be expecting to chow down.

Lord, starve us if you have to, but make us willing to eat.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Paul

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2008, 11:47:52 PM »

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Paul

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2008, 04:51:54 AM »

By the way, why does Paul say most Jewish people are unruly and vain talkers in Titus 1:10?
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Chris R

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2008, 09:04:06 AM »

By the way, why does Paul say most Jewish people are unruly and vain talkers in Titus 1:10?

Paul,

For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers,  out of everybody, not exclusively the jew"

Especially they of the circumcision   [ this means what it says "especially of the jews"
Titus 1:10

It is no different than saying Many Americans have eaten grits, especially those [americans] in the south.

I'm quite sure you have a point to make, so lets hear it.

Peace

Chris R
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Paul

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2008, 09:41:14 AM »

I'm quite sure you have a point to make, so lets hear it.

I just find it to be odd that you'd take a type of people and just call them all rude.
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joyful1

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2008, 09:42:58 AM »

Hi Paul--
Paul, himself, was "of the circumcision."  I think he was trying to point out to Titus, a Greek, that the men coming out of  "the church of his (Paul's) day" those of the circumcision, might easily continue in the "puffed up manner" of those trained in the old traditions, the traditions of men. He was trying to help Titus select good bishops. From his (Paul's) own experience he knew the challenges that these men would face in "overcoming" the temptation of returning to this religious mindset. Just my opinion.
Joyce :)
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hillsbororiver

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2008, 09:51:00 AM »

So true Chris,

This speaks of the physical "religious" Jews as well as the "spiritual" Jews of Christianity.

We can certaily see the following verse is not for physical Jews only, actually it applies to more than the mainstream denominations as well since from time to time we see the same sort of "vain babblings" and "oppositions" right here in this Forum. We must all be on guard!


1Ti 6:20  O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
 
1Ti 6:21  Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

Peace,

Joe

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joyful1

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2008, 10:08:47 AM »

:D one more note....seeing as how others have posted while I was typing...slow here...sorry! :)

I don't think Paul was calling a "people group" i.e. the descendants of Abraham, liars. He knew better than that because he said that "this witness is true" that these same men, "those of the church of his day" were calling OTHER people groups names.

 10For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

 11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

 12One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

 13This witness is true. (It's true that they of the circumcision call the Cretians, an entire people group, liars, etc.) Wherefore rebuke them (they of the circumcision) sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

Paul's emphasis was on "they of the circumcision." This is a "ritual" which he would NOT impose on new believers. It was a trade mark of those that "clung to the traditions of men," for the sake of "keeping the letter of the law." Paul began this letter with :

Titus 1:1
1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

He'd come out of that "religious" group and wanted to warn Titus that these traditions were harmful, to be aware of them.

I think Paul's admonition was of "a religious" set of rules NOT of a people group: the Jews. The Jews are not named.

Again...this is my opinion and understanding and I am open to correction.
Joyce :)
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Samson

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2008, 10:18:22 AM »

Hello Everyone,

                      This is a good thread transpiring, I've listened to Ray's Audio regarding " Does All mean All " several times(approx 5 times) and he stated that their is more than one way to skin a cat. I get the impression that the Scripture at 2Peter. 3:9 is more effective in proving the Salvation of all than the ones that state " All will be saved". He uses the negative sense to prove the positive outcome; " He doesn't desire, want, wish or will any to be destroyed or perish(GK-Oleutron primarily means losing or lost). As Ray explains, this is not wishfull thinking on God's part, because the Greek word for WILL is the strong form or absolute form of the word Will, although it's usually rendered in most translations as desire. So if God WILLS that NONE will perish or be lost, their can't be any in that group of people, so if their not Lost or destroyed, they must be saved.

                                                Samson.
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Sozo

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2008, 12:08:32 PM »

Please allow me to interject with some thoughts.  These thoughts are my observations of this thread so if I am wrong, someone please correct me.

What exactly are we doing in this thread....dialogue or debate?

Dialogue is collaborative; cooperative; multiple sides work toward a shared understanding.  In dialogue, one submits one's best thinking, expecting that other people's reflections will help improve it rather than threaten it.  Dialogue assumes that many people have pieces of answers and that cooperation can lead to a greater understanding.  Dialogue is mutual inquiry; collective knowledge.

Debate is competitive and/or oppositional; two (or more) opposing sides try to prove each other wrong.  In debate, one listens to find flaws, to spot differences, and to counter arguments.  Debate defends assumptions as truth.  Debate creates an close-minded attitude, a determination to be right.

It is my observation that this thread has become a debate.  Whether my observation is correct or not...maybe you guys can let me know.  It has been clearly shown through the usage of the word "maliste", that it would be impossible to interpret this word as "exclusively".  It has been clearly shown that Paul knows the difference in how this word is used in the comment made by Craig:

Quote
If something is specially made for me... Don't you see? It can indirectly mean exclusivity.

Yes Paul, you are correct I see where you can see exclusivity in your statement.

If I say, "I make suits specially for Paul" that can mean exclusivity.  But of course if I say, "I make suits for all men but specially for Paul" then that is not exclusive.  I'm glad you see the difference.

Now Paul, if you honestly still believe that 1 Tim 4:10 can mean exclusively, then can you please show us how this is possible using scripture.  Several people have posted all the scriptures that contain the word "maliste" translated as specially, especially, chiefly, etc.  So can you please show us how these scriptures can possibly mean "exclusively".

These forums are for like-minded believers to grow in Spirit and in Truth.  If we go from dialogue to debate, we aren't growing.  We are only arguing.

It seems to me that a snake has slithered in and is trying to sow discord.  However, this again, is only my observation.
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Paul

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2008, 01:00:18 PM »

Now Paul, if you honestly still believe that 1 Tim 4:10 can mean exclusively, then can you please show us how this is possible using scripture.  Several people have posted all the scriptures that contain the word "maliste" translated as specially, especially, chiefly, etc.  So can you please show us how these scriptures can possibly mean "exclusively".

I never said it could mean exclusively. Here's what I said:

All I'm saying is that in our day and age, the word specially can bear that exclusivity connotation quite often; the way its used in 1 Timothy 4:10 is obsolete. Thus, a person might not see past the context; they're mind will just go: specially: exclusively. It's understandable that a person wouldn't see the verse as proof (the ultimate proof) of Universal salvation.

However

I fail to see any excuse for not realizing the word does mean especially after seeing Titus 1:10.


This thread's merely a dialog about how one of the most essential verses for Universal Salvation doesn't make grammatical sense in today's modern English, in the most well-established translation of the Bible.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 01:19:47 PM by Paul »
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Akira329

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2008, 03:07:25 PM »

I think this thread ended after the second post. Especially ;) if this is a matter of which bible version to use.
Is this your point Paul ???
The debate seems to be about the KJV, right?
Its seems he's only stating the obvious about the word specially
And the obvious is we do not talk the way the KJV reads. right??
I could be totally off base here but this is what I gathered from the thread.

Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

Paul

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2008, 03:35:46 PM »

Its seems he's only stating the obvious about the word specially
And the obvious is we do not talk the way the KJV reads. right??
I could be totally off base here but this is what I gathered from the thread.

You're exactly correct.
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joyful1

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2008, 04:02:31 PM »

Passing out cups of coffee, cola, beer, wine, water....lets see...did I get everyone??

Okay...vodka for the guy in the back! ::::who IS that guy in the back anyway?::::
::::lifting sunglasses to see better::::::  8)

whatever! Now....

Personally, I LOVE the fact that you brought this up, Paul!!  :D
I admire your tenacity for standing up for what you believe in! This is the making of a warrior! A saint! You go guy!  :o  woooh hoo! And ...AND!!!....BONUS!!!!   YOU are "exercising" MY faith! I am being made to give an answer for the HOPE that is within me!! I want to THANK YOU for this thread, dear brother (*or future brother, whatever!)....doesn't matter to me! I'll count you as family now, seeing as how I myself am waiting for the "adoption, to wit," and I personally believe that everyone else will make it too! You probably believe everything that I do anyway and I'm making a total fool of myself going on like this!! Oh well, won't be the first time!  ;D

Now...I think my explanation about Paul's comment about "those of the circumcision" was quite good. I actually surprised myself in that 2nd comment! But you didn't comment on them?  ???

And secondly; I think if you replace "specially" with "especially" in each of these verses.....it totally works!

Here we go:
Deuteronomy 4:10 (*we really do not have to include this OT verse since the word "specially" was translated from an entirely different Hebrew word...but hey...why not be completely sure about this?)
Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me....
 
Acts 25:26
Of whom I have no certain thing to write unto my lord. Wherefore I have brought him forth before you, and specially before thee, O king Agrippa, that, after examination had, I might have somewhat to write.

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
 
1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Titus 1:10
For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

Philemon 1:16
Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord?


Okay...now scroll back up and put "ESPECIALLY" in all those places where I highlighted the word "specially" ....see???  IT TOTALLY WORKS!  
So...if you like using the word "especially" in any of these verses...it would not be butchering the meaning or the gist of the passages to do so...this IMHO.

The word "especially" is used interchangeably with "specially" in both old and modern English.

Specially:
μάλιστα
malista
mal'-is-tah
Neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb μάλα mala (very); (adverb) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly: - chiefly, most of all, (e-) specially.

So Paul....do you take vanilla or coconut flavouring in your coffee?
sincerely,
tryN2BAgoodpeacemaker.com (*don't go there, I made it up!)
Joyce :)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 04:09:26 PM by joyful1 »
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Paul

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2008, 07:20:44 PM »

 :)

Joyce, this thread was supposed to be nothing more than pointing out that the word specially is used in a peculiar way in 1 Timothy 4:10 in the King James version--an obsolete way. I exemplified this when I used it in a sentence in the same way:

I like bibletruths.com, specially the Lake of Fire series.

Obsolete English.

I just wanted to point out to people that 1 Timothy 4:10 in the KJV doesn't exactly make sense in our modern day language. If you're ever trying to explain Universalism to somebody, and you're using the KJV, you'll have to explain that specially used to be a synonym for especially. That's all.

Y'see, the especially part of 1 Timothy 4:10 is what makes the verse what it is. It's what sets in stone the fact that all literally means everyone. Unfortunately, the verse, in the KJV, is one of the more obsolete ones. The verse makes as little sense in our day and age as my example sentence above about bibletruths.com. When you read 1 Timothy 4:10 from a Bible that uses especially, it's a slap in the face to Christendom's exclusivity doctrine where only believers will be saved. However, this powerful verse doesn't make sense, in the KJV, in our day and age.

And I didn't comment on anyone's responses to my Titus 1:10 question because I didn't have time. I'll read your responses at some point and comment.  :)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 07:36:21 PM by Paul »
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Beloved

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2008, 09:33:29 PM »

This thread's merely a dialog about how one of the most essential verses for Universal Salvation doesn't make grammatical sense in today's modern English, in the most well-established translation of the Bible.

It is the SUM of God's word Paul...not this one verse. All this looks like nitpicking to me.

There are so many verses that speak of universal salvation that only those whose eyes are blocked would miss it

I myself do not need any more proof...and cannot understand how anyone after reading all that Ray has read and said can still be dealing with this. At any point Universalism is a MILK doctrine.

(Heb 6:1)  Wherefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Christ, unto the perfection we may advance, not again a foundation laying of reformation from dead works, and of faith on God,

(Heb 6:2)  of the teaching of baptisms, of laying on also of hands, of rising again also of the dead, and of judgment age-during,

We are suppose to be striving for maturity....feeding on meat of the Word.

Heb 5:13  For every one that useth milk is unskillfull in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

I am done with pablum

beloved










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Kat

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2008, 10:02:59 PM »


Hi Paul,

Quote
I just wanted to point out to people that 1 Timothy 4:10 in the KJV doesn't exactly make sense in our modern day language. If you're ever trying to explain Universalism to somebody, and you're using the KJV, you'll have to explain that specially used to be a synonym for especially. That's all.

I see what you are saying here.  But as long as a person's eyes are not opened they will find fault with any or all Scripture you use to try to explain Universalism to them.  So what I'm saying is you can not make a blind person see the truth with any Scripture, not until their eyes have been opened. 

Now if someone has a real interest in the truth, then have all these Scripture ready and you will see how God works with a person whose eyes are opened  :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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joyful1

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2008, 10:08:37 PM »

:)

I just wanted to point out to people that 1 Timothy 4:10 in the KJV doesn't exactly make sense in our modern day language. If you're ever trying to explain Universalism to somebody, and you're using the KJV, you'll have to explain that specially used to be a synonym for especially. That's all.

OHHHH!! sorry! Ok, bro....I totally get you now!! Thanks for being patient with me! The bottom line in explaining US to another person is that....only the Holy Spirit can reveal the truth that was "kept hidden." If the person that you are speaking to is used to reading KJV, and the Spirit witnesses to them in their spirit that what you are saying to them is the truth....they will GET it, no matter what....if He is not revealing it to them....they will NOT get it, even if you exhaust yourself daily explaining it away. I mean this literally! L. Ray Smith unknowingly, challenged me to try this...... and they were  right! It's a miracle that someone can read the scriptures that they quote and NOT get it...it takes a miracle of God to HIDE the truth from them. Which, I believe, is exactly what He is doing as He works out the perfect plan to save all of His children.
Quote
And I didn't comment on anyone's responses to my Titus 1:10 question because I didn't have time. I'll read your responses at some point and comment.  :)
No problem. Catch ya on the flip-flop, over and out!  ;D
Joyce :)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2008, 11:47:42 AM by hillsbororiver »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: "Specially"
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2008, 01:36:08 AM »


Hi Paul,

For those that have their eyes opened, that is a solid proof Scripture.  Now for those who have not had their eyes opened, they will have plenty of excuses not to believe this.  They see nothing spiritual in any of the words of the Bible.  The Bible is not a spiritual book to them and they can not understand these spiritual truths.  

I think the King James Onlyists are trying to make that translation of the Bible more important than the message it brings.  You can't make blind people see and understand this truth, no more than you could before your eyes were opened.  

Jer 14:14  And the LORD said to me, "The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart.

They are intended to be blind and deceived at this time.  But one day they will give up their foolish arguments, when the return of Jesus Christ will set everything right.

Eze 21:4  Because I will cut off both righteous and wicked from you, therefore My sword shall go out of its sheath against all flesh from south to north,
v. 5  that all flesh may know that I, the LORD, have drawn My sword out of its sheath; it shall not return anymore."'
v. 6  Sigh therefore, son of man, with a breaking heart, and sigh with bitterness before their eyes.
v. 7  And it shall be when they say to you, "Why are you sighing?' that you shall answer, "Because of the news; when it comes, every heart will melt, all hands will be feeble, every spirit will faint, and all knees will be weak as water. Behold, it is coming and shall be brought to pass,' says the Lord GOD."

mercy, peace and love
Kat



Wow Dear God! I absolutely LOVED that verse you quoted Kat, thank you so much for that, what a blessing it was. Truly i feel that very way many times. Sighing in silence...

Absolutely beautiful, one of my new favorite verses!! THANK YOU KAT!

God bless,

Alex
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