Isaiah 54:16 in the CLV

[Paul]

This is a very significant verse. It differs from the KJV in a way:

KJV: ...and I have created the waster to destroy.

CLV: ...And I, I created the ruiner to harm.

Thoughts?

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Paul,

Actually to me they say virtually the same thing with different words. Ruiner, waster? What's the significant difference are you seeing? Harm, destroy? I guess my question is the same here as well. This is really no different than how much of scripture is phrased in a unique way through the variety of translations available.

In regard to the waster/destroyer himself here are a couple segments from LOF 2 & 4;

"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that's God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!

Wow! Did you know that Scripture is in the Bible? Have you ever meditated at length on its meaning? This one Scripture does much damage to Christian doctrine. From a strictly carnal-minded approach, this Scripture is devastating. Let's see what these words entail from Strong's GREEK DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT:

VANITY: empty, profitless, vain, transientness [temporary], depravity [wickedness].

BONDAGE: slavery, subjection, subserviency.

CORRUPTION: shrivel, wither, spoil, ruin, deprave, defile, destroy, decay, perish

GROAN: moan, calamity, be in straits, murmur, grief, grudge, anguish.

TRAVAIL: pangs, to pain together, travail as in birth.

PAIN: anguish, toil for daily subsistence, starving.

The force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn't ask anyone's permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to "groan and travail in PAIN until NOW" as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.

And most of the glory that God will receive is from the glory that He gives to all mankind.

It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN -- he was created for the express purpose of being God's Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner "FROM THE BEGINNING"!

http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html

THE ORIGIN OF SATAN

God did not sin when He created His own enemy-Satan. Satan was never "Lucifer." Note these verses:

" ... from the beginning is the Adversary [Satan] sinning" (I Jn. 3:8).

"I have created the waster to destroy" (Isa. 54:16).

" ... His hand hath formed the crooked serpent" (Job 26:13).

"You are of your father, the Adversary [Satan] ... He was a mankiller [murderer] from the beginning ... " (Jn. 8:44).

Isa. 14:12-15 and Ezek. 28:1-19 are often used in desperation to prove that Satan was once a good Angel who went bad. The Authorized Version does a poor job in translating these verses. Even so, both are accounts of men and both men DIE. Neither of these two princes ever was Satan.

If Satan was a Archangel or Cherub who "went bad," and God didn't plan for that to happen, then God made a mistake and sinned. But God never sins. God never makes a mistake.

Whether they are aware of it or not, theologians accuse God of sin every time they make something take God by surprise.

The only way Satan, evil, and sin can be justified is if God brought these things into existence for a grand purpose and that they will be discarded when that purpose is accomplished. And that is exactly what the Scriptures say will happen.

Look at this verse:

"For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary" (I Jn. 3:8).

Notice it doesn't say He will be "punishing" Satan's acts, but literally "annulling" them. And this is the same word used in Jn. 10:35 stating that the Scriptures cannot be "annulled." This is a powerful Scripture. But does even one in a hundred thousand believe it?

God is not running a damage control center from Heaven. God was, is, and always will be in total control of His creation. And seriously, would we ever want it any other way?

Notice Heb. 9:26:

" ... yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, is He manifest." The King James says: "put away."

The Greek is athetesis [UN-PLACING] -- "repudiation!" The name "God" means "PLACER," and God is going to UN-PLACE SIN. Pretty powerful stuff, huh?

http://bible-truths.com/part4.htm

Peace,

Joe

[joyful1]

Hi Paul--
KJV:
Isa 54:16  
Behold,2009 I595 have created1254 the smith2796 that bloweth5301 the coals6352 in the fire,784 and that bringeth forth3318 an instrument3627 for his work;4639 and I595 have created1254 the waster7843 to destroy.2254

"the waster" is:
H7843
שׁחת
shâchath
shaw-khath'
A primitive root; to decay, that is, (causatively) ruin (literally or figuratively): - batter, cast off, corrupt (-er, thing), destroy (-er, -uction), lose, mar, perish, spill, spoiler, X utterly, waste (-r).

the entry for "destroy" is:
H2254
חבל
châbal
khaw-bal'
A primitive root; to wind tightly (as a rope), that is, to bind; specifically by a pledge; figuratively to pervert, destroy; also to writhe in pain (especially of parturition): -  X at all, band, bring forth, (deal) corrupt (-ly) destroy, offend, lay to (take a) pledge, spoil, travail, X very, withhold.

(YLT) Young's Literal Translation:
Isaiah 54:16
16Lo, I -- I have prepared an artizan, Blowing on a fire of coals, And bringing out an instrument for his work, And I have prepared a destroyer to destroy.

Darby Translation:
Isaiah 54:16
16Behold, it is I who have created the smith that bloweth in the fire of coal, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to ravage.

Holman Christian Standard:
Isaiah 54:16
16 Look, I have created the craftsman
   who blows on the charcoal fire
   and produces a weapon suitable for its task;
   and I have created the destroyer to work havoc.

==================
Looks like the end result is pretty much the same. Even in KJV, "the waster" could have been translated "destroyer", as it was in these other versions, I would go with the work of the destroyer/waster being that of "a destroyer" and that would simply be "to destroy."

What are your thoughts on this?
Joyce

[Paul]

Actually to me they say virtually the same thing with different words. Ruiner, waster? What's the significant difference are you seeing? Harm, destroy? I guess my question is the same here as well.

Because one harms; the other down right destroys. I was thinking harm and destruction are two different things.

In many cases, the CLV has the most accurate translation, and, assuming harming is different from destroying, I was wondering what the difference in meaning of the verse was.

[Dave in Tenn]

Pardon my ignorance.  What is the CLV?

[mharrell08]

Pardon my ignorance.  What is the CLV?

Concordant Literal Version

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Paul,

To expand a little on what Joyce posted earlier we will often find some discrepencies between all the translations out there. Primarily I use the King James, Rotherham's, NIV, and New American Standard. Most often I use the King James to post here as that seems to be the common language most frequently used here at the Forum, besides as Ray says it is not a bad translation once you get past the "hell" and "eternal" stuff.

I can't tell you how many times I use multiple translations (in addition to Strong's) to sort out a troublesome or confusing verse, often the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Unfortunately I have yet to find a perfect translation and would probably not recognize it even if I did find it! 


NIV

Isaiah 54:16 "See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc;

New American Standard Bible

Isaiah 54:16 "Behold, I Myself have created the smith who blows the fire of coals And brings out a weapon for its work; And I have created the destroyer to ruin.

Amplified Bible

54:16 Behold, I have created the smith who blows on the fire of coals and who produces a weapon for its purpose; and I have created the devastator to destroy.

New Living Translation

Isaiah 54:16 "I have created the blacksmith who fans the coals beneath the forge and makes the weapons of destruction.   And I have created the armies that destroy.

English Standard Version

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy;

Contemporary English Version

Isaiah 54:16 Don't forget that I created metalworkers who make weapons over burning coals. I also created armies that can bring destruction.

New King James Version

Isaiah 54:16 " Behold, I have created the blacksmith Who blows the coals in the fire, Who brings forth an instrument for his work; And I have created the spoiler to destroy.

Rotherham's

Isaiah 54:16 Lo! I have created the smith, who bloweth up a fire of coals, And who bringeth forth an instrument for his work, And I have created the waster to destroy(b);

b "creating misfortune"

Young's Literal Translation

Isaiah 54:16 Lo, I have prepared an artizan, Blowing on a fire of coals, And bringing out an instrument for his work, And I have prepared a destroyer to destroy.

Darby Translation

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, it is I who have created the smith that bloweth in the fire of coal, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to ravage.

Peace,

Joe

[gmik]

Great Bible Study.  Thanks all!

[OBrenda]

Gina,

Love your smiley in the hammock without a care, is that YOU just keeping your eyes on the heavens??

[gmik]

Hey Brenda!

I wish I could say that, but....really I have collapsed...its summer vacation!!!!!!!

(I am a teacher )

[OBrenda]

(I am a teacher )
Ohh-My   Let me get you a Lemonaide...