Going to church?

[hillsbororiver]

Here is a email that Ray mentions communion and it also has a mention of Martin Luther that I've heard mention a few times.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,251.0.html ------

You know, I have kind of a rule of thumb: If the Church teaches it, it must be wrong.
Martin Luther and John Calvin were two of the most evil and vile heretics that have ever drawn breath on this earth. Disagree with heretic Calvin, and you just might end up being toasted over a low heat fire for maximum pain. Calvin is at the very bottom of the cesspool of humanity--what possible sin could top that?
There is no such thing as a "weekly Lord's day" in the Scriptures. Numerous physical rituals were performed in the early years of the Apostles' ministries until they came to a realization that it is the spirit that matters, not the physical. We are circumcized WITHOUT HANDS in our hear and spirit, and the same goes for communion, baptism, sabbath days, etc., etc., etc.

God be with you,
Ray

Whilst I do agree that Luther made many many mistakes, it would be helpful when any of these historical church leadership men are mentioned, a careful critic is done of them. They were only human coming out of the DARK ages of civilization and had many many flaws - just like you and me.

These men carried the light as far as they could in their time. The Lord understands them better then I. They held to the primitive DEVELOPMENT of NON-FREE WILL, UNIVERALISM and CARE for family as opposed to giving to church for blessing, buried men in santified grounds of the church who were not "Christian", established a social system for peasents so they did not starve by Church taxing the poor and stopped disease like black plague in cities through advancing of sanitation systems. Emphasis here is on PRIMITIVE doctrinal development.  I'll leave alternative positives concerning these mere men to you doing your own research.

All in all we must NOT follow mere men but learn from their mistakes - as unfortunately history has a bad habit of repeating into our present.

Above all we need wisdom and balance when speaking on such matters of history.

digitalwise

Hi digitalwise,

Of course Martin Luther (and others) are/were only human and prone to sin as we all are, but we could also say that about other men who saw torturing and murdering as their "divine" right. We could list the "good" of Vlad the Impaler, Hitler, Stalin, etc. who also viewed themselves of having the power and authority over men's lives. But Luther and Calvin did these things in the name of Jesus!

In regard to Luther ending the Black Plague (Bubonic Plague, Black Death) he was not even born when the Plague wiped out 1/3 of Europe's population Luther lived from 1483 - 1546, the Black Plague's worst devastation was a five year period between 1347 - 1352.

Getting back to Hitler, Martin Luther was actually a philosophical mentor (not in person of course) of his, using many of Luther's writings to justify his treatment (Final Solution) of the Jewish race.

There is a plethora of information available in regard to this, here is an example;

"First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know."

http://www.awitness.org/books/luther/on_jews_and_their_lies_p2.html

While I wholeheartedly agree we should be temperate in our criticisms and strive (through His Spirit) to be merciful I do not believe we should elevate men such as Luther and Calvin to a sainted status, the Lord did indeed use their works for His purpose but He also used many other less than godly and compassionate men to do so as well.

Peace,

Joe

[OBrenda]

Hi Eileen,

I believe what I hear you saying is "I am feeling Lost" and Separated. Going to Church was apart of your identity, how you expresses to the world, I belong and believe in God!  It has been a shared intimacy that works like a glue for your family.  It has been the way in which you have been an example to your Children and Husband.
Now what Do you do?     (I don't know how to post a link to it, so I pasted some of Ray's points)

(I just reread Ray's article):      WINNING SOULS FOR JESUS?

HOW TO DEMONSTRATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH

I personally know a man who has his little wife working two jobs to support their family so that he can study the Scriptures and enter into doctrinal debates with other Christians at the local Cafe as a perpetual hobby. Notice the admonition of the Apostle Peter:

"Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; having your conversation [Gk: 'conduct'] honest [Gk: 'honorable'] among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may BY YOUR GOOD WORKS, [Not your clever Bible arguments], which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation" (I Pet. 2:11-12).

Your good works and righteous character will pay dividends to others eventually—if not in this life, then in the Judgment.
It is ALL OF GOD. It is not wrong to tell others of your knowledge of God and His Word. It is not, however, your responsibility to "get people saved." Only God can do that.

It is GOD who does the calling:

"For ye see your calling brethren how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen [Who? 'GOD'] the weak things of this world to confound the things which are mighty..." (I Cor. 1:26-27).

It is GOD who does the dragging:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent Me, draw him [Gk: 'drag him']..." (John 6:44).

It is CHRIST Who chooses from those His Father dragged:
"Ye have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU..." (John 15:16).

Eventually this will include all mankind:
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32).

And all will respond to Gods judgments and chastisements:
"That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those in earth, and those under the earth; And that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11—See also Isa. 26:9b).

And let's not forget:
"...no man CAN say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12:3b).

Which is totally contrary to the horrible teachings of such men as John Hagee and Herbert W. Armstrong on this subject. Herbert Armstrong said: "Yes, every knee will bow, and if they don't GOD WILL BREAK THEIR KNEES." Oh the unscriptural foolishness of carnal—minded men.

But do orthodox Christians believe that these Scriptures mean what they say? Of course not, and that is why they quote Phil. 2:12 "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," thinking that this takes Sovereignty away from God and places it back with man and his fabled "free will." Not so. They forget to read the next verse which tells us why we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling:

"For ['for' means 'because'] it is GOD [Who? Man? NO! 'GOD'] which works in you both TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

___________________________________________________________________________________

What I think we are all learning here, in different areas of our lives, is to trust in Gods ability we have to die to ourselves in all things! He is ultimately "The Parent/Father" to your children, husband, you, and your entire family! Take that burdon from your shoulders, and walk after Him.

Your Sister in Christ,
Brenda

[EKnight]

Yes Brenda, that is exactly how I feel and your post was most beneficial.


[i]Your good works and righteous character will pay dividends to others eventually—if not in this life, then in the Judgment.[/i]

I seriously hope this is true.  I've often wondered if my husband (since we became one flesh) could/would benefit from my having faith.  And my children are decent too, they just don't yet understand that these blessings come from God.

Thanks Brenda, I am now off to work feeling a bit free(er).

Eileen

[Dave in Tenn]

"While I wholeheartedly agree we should be temperate in our criticisms and strive (through His Spirit) to be merciful I do not believe we should elevate men such as Luther and Calvin to a sainted status, the Lord did indeed use their works for His purpose but He also used many other less than godly and compassionate men to do so as well."

The Old Testament scriptures are full of them as well...disobedient prophets, evil Kings (both of Israel and foreign lands), Kings with evil in them...all set by God to do His work.  All examples of how 'not to be'.  No man is perfect, to be sure, but the Perfect has come. 

Luk 6:40

(ISV)  A disciple is not better than his teacher. But everyone who is fully-trained will be like his teacher.


Joh 17:23


(YLT)  I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.

[Kat]

Hi digitalwise,

it would be helpful when any of these historical church leadership men are mentioned, a careful critic is done of them.

Here are a few things I found in a critic of Martin Luther.
-----------------------------------------------
The peasants of Germany revolted in 1525 because of their miserable living conditions and were slaughtered at the behest of Martin Luther! Here is a quote from Luther; "They should be knocked to pieces, strangled and stabbed, secretly and openly, by everybody who can do it, just as one must kill a mad dog!"

Here is another of Luther's commented that James was "a right strawy epistle" and questioned whether a book of such inferior worth even belonged in the New Testament. (from LUTHER, THE DERANGED THEOLOGIAN http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/luther1.htm)

Here is a comment from Ray concerning this qoute from Luther:
Martin Luther called James an Epistle of straw or almost worthless, you know.  What do you do with straw?  You burn it, you burn the straw and the stubble.  That was Martin Luther, this great reformer?   He thought that the Epistle of James was worth nothing more than to burn in the fire... how about that?
(from the May Bible study 'DOES A SOVEREIGN GOD EVER CHANGE ?')

I'm just can't see holding this man up as some great historical church leader, sure he made some reforms, but 'great' were his evil acts...  I'll just stick with the Apostle James.

Mat 7:17  Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
v. 18  A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
v. 19  Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
v. 20  Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[OBrenda]

http://www.awitness.org/books/luther/on_jews_and_their_lies_p2.html

Joe[/color]

Wow...Joe,

I just read the link you posted.  How HORRIDLY Hateful!  I had no clue about this.  I watched a "PBS Special" (I think) concerning him, and this side wasn't protrayed.  (I don't understand in what way he felt the Jews were stealing from them?)    Thanks Kat this is all new stuff to me.

To bad he didn't read Rays teaching on the Beast!
Brenda

[Dave in Tenn]

Eileen, you've probably read this already, but I just did this morning and it's of tremendous value for this discussion.  (How often that seems to happen around here!  Can anybody say, "Must be God?")

http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html

[digitalwise]

While I wholeheartedly agree we should be temperate in our criticisms and strive (through His Spirit) to be merciful I do not believe we should elevate men such as Luther and Calvin to a sainted status, the Lord did indeed use their works for His purpose but He also used many other less than godly and compassionate men to do so as well.

Peace,

Joe

Very true. In reference to Luther, I was referrring to sanitation systems introduced by Calvin.

This is somewhat off topic here, I thought I'd clarify this situation. And for sure the historical record are far more complex then most are aware. And when we speak of these matters we should understand them better if we start quoting by ARDENT study and AVOIDANCE of the heresies. We do learn from our past.

Putting aside these violent historical times and the upheavels at this time, it is of necessity we LEARN from from these historical times of the ROOT theological developments so we can better understand the embedded heresies of today in the churches.

These violent times in the purposes in God were to release the hold of captivity of Babylon on the Church.

I am establisihng a church fellowship. My Christian journey from Armstrong, my journey in the scriptures and the historical record of the church in study spans over 35 years. I am FULLY conversant with the proper extraction of scripture. I do have formal training in many areas I will not elaborate here.

With that "ego" part of me aside here: It is to this I have come. The establishment of a fellowship here in Australia INDEPENDENT of Ray's efforts in the US.

However of interest and concern to you and everyone here - INDEPENDENTLY I have come to the doctrinal conclusions of Ray here on forum. On matters of scripture then WE DO NOT differ. And so it should be, afterall do not we have the same bible and access to works on original Greek and Hebrew and over 50+ bible translations.

It is those free thoughts I leave you,

Blessings from our Lord,

digitalwise.

[digitalwise]

Hi digitalwise,

I'm just can't see holding this man up as some great historical church leader, sure he made some reforms, but 'great' were his evil acts...  I'll just stick with the Apostle James.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Dear Kate,

The Epistle of James was firstly addressed to the Jewish [Christian] believers. The added bonus of this epsitle is the balance in respect of the LAW as applied under Spiritual outpouring and the establishment of the Church after the Pentecost event recorded in Acts and the spread of the gospel.

The use of the espistle James upset Luther as the Roman Church of the time CORRUPTED the writings of James in an attempt to kill off the merits of Christ - that is SOLA by FAITH in Christ. We become PRESENT priviledged children of God without some inter mediatory Catholic priest telling us what the scriptures mean. The espitle of James became straw in the hands of papal doctrinal interpretation. So it may exist today and does in the forms of many heresies in the present day churches.

As for matters pertaining leadership and the violent historical records see my comments on the former post.

Blessing in the Lord,

digitalwise

[Kat]

The espitle of James became straw in the hands of papal doctrinal interpretation.

I have a different understanding of Luther concerning the Apostle James. Whether he had a problem with the Roman Church and their corruption of the writings of James, from his own quotes he clearly did not have understanding of what is taught by James and believed he contradicted Paul.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/luther1.htm#1 -----

On the canonical level, a particular target of Martin Luther's ire was the New Testament epistle of James. The epistles assertion that "faith without works is also dead" absolutely rubbed Martin the wrong way (as it had Paul before him). Luther commented that James was "a right strawy epistle" and questioned whether a book of such inferior worth even belonged in the New Testament.

"I maintain that some Jew wrote it [the Book of James] who probably heard about Christian people but never encountered any."

"Many sweat to reconcile St. Paul and St. James, but in vain. 'Faith justifies' and 'faith does not justify' contradict each other flatly. If any one can harmonize them I will give him my doctor's hood and let him call me a fool."

"We should throw the Epistle of James out of this school [the University of Wittenberg].... -------------------------------------------------

The church see an 'apparent' contradiction of the teachings of James and John, Luther certainly did.  Though you want to be "INDEPENDENT of Ray's efforts" maybe you would like to listen to his Bible study - 'James & Paul Contradict?' 

July 1, 2007 Bible study
http://bible-truths.com/audio/07-01-07_Part1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/07-01-07_Part2.mp3
Rays notes for this study: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4828.0.html

mercy, peace and loove
Kat

[digitalwise]

Good references, Kat from Ray! Of course we are on the SAME page here regarding deductive teaching from James and the correct doctrine. I cannot emphasise that enough here.

A comment on Web links:

The web links - but please check there authority, this same web site calls Paul the Apostle an idiot and a fool. Some web sites despite there apparent quality of sources will inflame negative perceptions of the historical record much like a brain labotomy - cut all positive bits and bring forward the negative bits.

A fair and unbiased treatment would be Wikipedia on Martin Luther without inducting other religious and denominational bias.

As for the other - I'll state again: The epistle of James in those times was corrupted by Papal so called scholar works mentality, that even this guy Luther had difficulty with it with his "papal" darkened and influenced mind. This is by inductive reasoning as to why this would be in this character of the man. The lack of native tongue bible translations, and other works of the bible WERE BANNED by the Catholic church and did not make the understanding any easier. Luther translated the bible to native German tongue for the COMMON people otherwise banned to the the point of death by church decree. Those were very different times. They were NOT the easy peasy times of today. For that we must not do violence to the historical record and be more even minded.

In those times - Faith was supposed to exist only in relics and elements santified by the Catholic church! And the reformation is all about countering that great lie from hades.

As is of today many churches have a failed understanding of the LAW and GRACE positioning of James. As of today many Christians do not understand the difference between IMPUTED righteousness as opposed to imparted righteousness. One is right standing with God based on the merits of Christ and the other is the endemic heresy of the old Armstrong movement, perfection holiness movements and legalistic organizations who seek control over weak minds in the churches.

An imparted doctrine of righteousness corrupts the free Gift of God in Christ and expects perfection in this life. It demands obligations and sacrifies made to the church organizations. One example is the evil tithing doctrine.

I believe NO man is justified by the WORKS of the LAW. [LAW underlined] James was expressing the outcomes that were the RESULT of the Spiritual outpouring that should manifest in believers as consequence of their faith.

When I say independent of Ray, I am dependent on NO mans teachings however it is a priviledge and a great faith boost to see those being called out of the "Babylonian churches" by Ray's study of the scriptures. Finally if the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead, dwell in Ray who teaches the bible clearly then that same Spirit is more then capable in teaching other men and women in other parts of the world THE SAME identical teachings, independently. It is not dependent on one man. 

We are on the same page - relax.

Blessings,

digitalwise

[Dave in Tenn]

Thanks for the clarification, Digitalwise.  I believe your testimony that God's Spirit can do and does do the same work through the same Spirit independantly.  For my own small part, which is where my Spirit can bear witness, God began teaching me beyond what I had grown up with the very first time I read the New Testament as a teenager--beyond sound bytes from pulpit and sunday school class, filtered through denominational doctrine.

That understand began to grow the more I read and contemplated what I was learning as opposed to what I was being taught.  Numbers mean nothing here as to what 'percentage' of right New Testament doctrine I was recieving straight from the scriptures, but I don't think it's a lie to say that I was part-way 'there'--and not just in rejection of heresy, but in understanding of truth.

My own nascent recognition of truth did NOT lead me to further study and a more perfect understanding, however.  From that foundation (at least 35 years ago and for a number of years following), I have almost exclusively Ray to thank for whatever is built in me now and owe him a great debt.

So I pray for you and your ministry in Australia that God will open a new channel to call out His elect into an example of fellowship with sound doctrine and love.

[Kat]

Hi digitalwise,

I believe NO man is justified by the WORKS of the LAW. [LAW underlined] James was expressing the outcomes that were the RESULT of the Spiritual outpouring that should manifest in believers as consequence of their faith.

It is good to see that we have the same understanding where James is concerned.

As for Martin Luther, I do understand that he played a part in getting a non-corrupt Bible translated so that the people could have a Scripture source.  That is one side of the story.  Ray spoke a good deal about him in his Mobile Conference in 2007 'How We Got The Bible.'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.15.html -----

Martin Luther, 60 years before the King James came out, he is putting together a German Bible.  But he's not going to translate this one from the Latin, he used the recent Greek edition of Erasmus, the parallel of the Greek and the Latin.  He puts that into German.  So this is the first Bible in the European language that's translated from the original language, Martin Luther's Bible.
-------------------------------------------------------------

I can see how there are independent believers and that only Jesus Christ is the real source of all undestanding.  But it was through Ray's teaching that God has opened my eyes.  He spends a lot His time studying the Scriptures and explaining in great detail what is revealed to him.  This gives us here at BT the foundational truths that the church is totally lacking.  From a solid foundation we can move on into our own study of the Word. 

We are glad to have any like minded person join our fellowship 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[winner08]

Subject going to church: Yesterday I was telling a friend I would like to go to a church to see what they are preaching these days. It's been a very long time since I have been to church. Last time was a cathloic church, well I was raised cathloic. I know what they teach but I am ignorent when it comes to other religions. Just to see how far others go when teaching their own belief's. Should I do this or not I feel maby I shouldn't mess with this idea. Maby I just ansewered my own question.

                                             Darren

[mharrell08]

Subject going to church: Yesterday I was telling a friend I would like to go to a church to see what they are preaching these days. It's been a very long time since I have been to church. Last time was a cathloic church, well I was raised cathloic. I know what they teach but I am ignorent when it comes to other religions. Just to see how far others go when teaching their own belief's. Should I do this or not I feel maby I shouldn't mess with this idea. Maby I just ansewered my own question.

                                             Darren

Bingo...

[winner08]

That's funny!!

                                   Darren

[Heidi]

We all have to remember that the "shadow" is not evil, but....come out of her my people can not be interpreted in any other way...come out of her.  Knowing the truth now I have no desire to go back, even for a visit 

[Sirach]

I went to a service with my 11 year old son last sunday evening...my 14 year old daughter was sitting in the bench behind me with her friends. Around me where people i know...people i know personally...friends....some very dear friends. I listened to the pastor...and you know...although i have learnt a lot in the past few weeks...i told an elder i learnt more in the past few weeks then in 20 years of going to church...THANK YOU LORD...im not ready to let go, and i doubt if i need to. I have let go..spiritually...i came out of her...spiritually, i dont have a doubt about that. But when i leave physically, i cannot reach them, i will loose contact, and with that the possibillity to try and make them think. If they kick me out becos of blindness..i will love them very much...and go, but untill that happens, i will stay, i will be critical, i will write emails, letters, have conversations, throw pearls...becos i cannot judge who are sweins (is this english ?) and who are not.

[Dave in Tenn]

Sirach, I admire your stance and will pray for you and family.

Act 14:1  (ISV)  In Iconium they (Paul and Barnabas) went into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed.

This happened after other occasions where they were assaulted and abused by the rulers of the synagogues.

I have to agree with you that we don't know who are swine until they prove it.  Perhaps even your pastor is struggling, but fearful.

Perhaps they mean nothing, but I have been having dreams of taking this Gospel back into the churches.

I'll pray for you that God will increase your knowledge, faith, and love and give you grace and joy whatever the outcome.     

[EKnight]

Hmm, I don't think I would have the courage.  Maybe I will just send my husband back to do my dirty work 

Eileen