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II Thess 1:8 vengeance. explain
winner08:
Thanks Eileen: I'm not questionning God. ( but who are you Oman to ansewer God back). I have been thinking about this far awhile. Actually a friend and I were discussing a matter on God's will and man's will. The question arised if God intended for man to do a certain thing, and man has no free will, therefore God is in control of man's will, would not man have to do God's will? If God's will would be that a certain person would reject God's word even after He knew God, would that not have to be God's will to begin with? If so why would he have to suffer stripes for that? Would it not be God's responsiblity not mans. What am I missing here? It seems to me that I am missing something big here.
Darren
Kat:
Hi Darren,
--- Quote ---How can we not do God's will if it is His will for us to do? If we refused to do God's will then that also must be God's will for us not to do His will. Why then would we have to bare many stripes if He is responsible for us not doing His will.
--- End quote ---
Here is an email where Ray covers this.
http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility ----
You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you. God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!
When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.
But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!
Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.
This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.
Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.
It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.
God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:
"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!
God be with you,
Ray
winner08:
Man, I'm sorry that I am having such a difficult time with this free will/choice stuff. So let see if I understand what you said kat. (through Ray's teaching). We are held responsible for the choices we make, even though God brings about the circumstances that leeds us to the choices we make. So, no free will means that something causes us to make these choices and that something is circumstances. That God brings about. But we make that choice. The choices we make are our own. Therefore we are held responsible for that choice. Praise the Lord I think I got it. It just became clear to me as I was posting this (WOW) :D ;D ::)
Thanks Kat,
Darren
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