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Author Topic: II Thess 1:8 vengeance. explain  (Read 2696 times)

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indianabob

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II Thess 1:8 vengeance. explain
« on: July 16, 2008, 08:50:18 PM »

ii thessalonians 1:5-10

How do we explain this vengeance and God's dealing with those not called in this life?

I think I understand the underlying meaning, but am not able to explain with scripture.

Indiana Bob
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hillsbororiver

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Re: II Thess 1:8 vengeance. explain
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2008, 09:55:59 PM »

Hi Bob,

I believe this is intended for the called (who depart), not unbelievers.


2 Thessalonians 1

5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

We all know there are many people in the church and even out of the churches who use the name of Christ for their own profit, whether that profit be monetary, popularity, sexual favors or worse. There are those who will not be recognized by Christ as one of His even though they claim to have done wonderful things in His name. They lost sight of God as they returned to worship the beast and antichrist within.

The greater chastisement will be for those who once knew Him and turned their back on Him to serve themselves.

 
Mat 18:6  But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Luk 12:47  And that servant, which knew his lord's will and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
 
Luk 12:48  But he that knew not and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

His Peace to you Brother,

Joe


« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 09:57:32 PM by hillsbororiver »
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winner08

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Re: II Thess 1:8 vengeance. explain
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2008, 11:51:38 PM »

Question: I notice the word stripes are used when one is beaten, as in few or many stripes. I know this is a real rookie question but what is the meaning of the word stripes. I know what my human mind says the word stripes mean, but I know this is not correct. I beleive stripes is used for a spiritual meanning. Is this correct? What does stripes mean?

                                         Darren

ps I feel dumb for asking, but I don't know.
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Stevernator

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Re: II Thess 1:8 vengeance. explain
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2008, 01:20:31 AM »

Hi Darren
 I found these verses from a site but I will not link since thats against the rules as I understand it.

(Isaiah 52:14 KJV)
"He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed"

"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." (Exodus 21:23-25 KJV)

"And it shall be, if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number. Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee." (Deuteronomy 25:2-3 KJV)

"He shall build an house for My Name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee." (2 Samuel 7:13-15 KJV)

"And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat them. And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely: Who, having received such a charge, thrust them into the inner prison, and made their feet fast in the stocks. And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them." (Acts 16:22-25 KJV)

"But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things." (2 Corinthians 6:4-10 KJV)
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winner08

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Re: II Thess 1:8 vengeance. explain
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2008, 03:11:48 AM »

Stevernator: I notice in Duteronomy it speaks of a man being beating before the face. Forty stripes. So stripes means beat? In Isaiah we are saved through the beating (stripes) Jesus took? So from what I can gather stripes are physical beatings. Are am I missing the whole point?(Probaly).

                                     Darren
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: II Thess 1:8 vengeance. explain
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2008, 09:58:23 AM »

Darren, I guess technically the 'stripes' could be the marks left from the beating...at least that's been the way I understood it.  But yes, you are on the mark.  But remember, like with all things physical, it is the Spiritual that's important.  We can and do recieve stripes now without anybody laying anything physical on our backs. Count it as all joy.   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

hillsbororiver

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Re: II Thess 1:8 vengeance. explain
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2008, 10:30:09 AM »


But remember, like with all things physical, it is the Spiritual that's important.  We can and do recieve stripes now without anybody laying anything physical on our backs. Count it as all joy.
   

Great answer Dave!

stripes4127

G4127
πληγή
plēgē
play-gay'
From G4141; a stroke; by implication a wound; figuratively a calamity: - plague, stripe, wound (-ed).

Peace,

Joe
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Kat

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Re: II Thess 1:8 vengeance. explain
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2008, 11:38:03 AM »


Hi Darren,

Quote
What does stripes mean?

To add to the good answers you have already received.

2Peter 2:9  then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,

We understand that everyone in the Lake of fire judgement is deserving of punishment for their sins, but Christ is a just Judge.  He will meter out the punishment as fitting for each, some only a little - "few stripes,"  But for some a lot is needed - "many stripes."

Luke 12:47  And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
v. 48  But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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winner08

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Re: II Thess 1:8 vengeance. explain
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2008, 11:36:00 PM »

Kat you quoted a verse that said: and the servent who knew his master's will and did not prepare himself, or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. I take this as If we know God's will and yet reject or refuse to do according to His will, we will be beaten with many stripes. How can we not do God's will if it is His will for us to do? If we refused to do God's will then that also must be God's will for us not to do His will. Why then would we have to bare many stripes if He is responsible for us not doing His will. I hope you can understand what I'm trying to say, I think I lost myself in this question. :D :o. Or maby I just got Luke 12:47 all wrong. With me it is possible.

                                        Darren
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EKnight

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Re: II Thess 1:8 vengeance. explain
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2008, 11:53:32 PM »

Darren,

That sounds like the question posed in Romans 9:

Rom9:19-21  You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

And I am guessing it is also the answer to the question.

Eileen
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winner08

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Re: II Thess 1:8 vengeance. explain
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2008, 12:42:08 AM »

Thanks Eileen: I'm not questionning God. ( but who are you Oman to ansewer God back). I have been thinking about this far awhile. Actually a friend and I were discussing a matter on God's will and man's will. The question arised if God intended for man to do a certain thing, and man has no free will, therefore God is in control of man's will, would not man have to do God's will? If God's will would be that a certain person would reject God's word even after He knew God, would that not have to be God's will to begin with? If so why would he have to suffer stripes for that? Would it not be God's responsiblity not mans. What am I missing here? It seems to me that I am missing something big here.

                                            Darren
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Kat

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Re: II Thess 1:8 vengeance. explain
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2008, 01:20:57 AM »


Hi Darren,

Quote
How can we not do God's will if it is His will for us to do? If we refused to do God's will then that also must be God's will for us not to do His will. Why then would we have to bare many stripes if He is responsible for us not doing His will.


Here is an email where Ray covers this.

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility ----

You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you.  God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE!  True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT! 

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying:  Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED?  Why?   Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them.  IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT.   "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well!  We have this absolute promise from God:

"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!

God be with you,
Ray
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winner08

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Re: II Thess 1:8 vengeance. explain
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2008, 03:13:06 PM »

Man, I'm sorry that I am having such a difficult time with this free will/choice stuff. So let see if I understand what you said kat. (through Ray's teaching). We are held responsible for the choices we make, even though God brings  about the circumstances that leeds us to the choices we make. So, no free will means that something causes us to make these choices and that something is circumstances. That God brings about. But we make that choice. The choices we make are our own. Therefore we are held responsible for that choice. Praise the Lord I think I got it. It just became clear to me as I was posting this (WOW) :D ;D ::)

                                   Thanks Kat,
                                      Darren

                                         
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