Tribulation Right Here

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Brothers and Sisters,

We read (and sometimes feel) that the periods of strife here in the Forum from time to time should not be happening and it is all too frustrating to bear for some of us. I am wondering if that truly is the case, have you considered just maybe it is all part of God's grand design, plan and suits His purpose.

[Mat 10:34  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Mat 10:35  For I am come to set a man at variance against his father and the daughter against her mother and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.]

In perusing most every post here I sometimes come across the sentiment within some posts that we as "likeminded" believers should be able to communicate without disagreement or differences and when these things do happen some of us have a tendency to withdraw from participating or even decide it is time to move on, but move on where? Where is the place in this present time that no discord ever is present? After all what does "likeminded" really mean? Is it agreeing with each other 100% of the time? If that was the case there would be no reason to ever use that word, as like minded believers we are persuing a better relationship with God as well as our brethren, to be able to deal with each other in faith, patience and longsuffering, the goal is what makes us likeminded not how we presently understand everything. I believe if we search the scriptures we see that wherever faith is displayed or there are people who seek to know God and strive for His wisdom Satan will appear in an attempt to spoil, divide and sow disharmony.

[Mat 13:19  When any one heareth the word of the kingdom and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mat 13:20  But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

Mat 13:21  Yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Most all of us are here because we were fascinated by the articles on Bible Truths, they spoke to our spirit, encouraging us and freeing us from so much of the bondage to and of Babylon, we came here with high expectations of a peaceful oasis with one big happy family. But where on this earth does "one big family" actually exist? If we look to our own families, our own flesh and blood, people we grew up with, speak with face to face, experience good times and endure difficult times together in person. Do we always see eye to eye even with them? Should we think communicating with our spiritual Brothers and Sisters be any easier? Can we reasonably expect this to be accomplished without any need for understanding, patience, long suffering on our own part?

When we feel we have been slighted, ignored or unfairly criticized does it build us up spiritually if we seek understanding before we become disillusioned or even angry? In the best case scenarios I believe we do actually attempt this with our own flesh and blood families.

Please forgive me if I sound as if I am preaching, I am writing this because I too have stumbled in this regard, many of you are far ahead of me in patience and empathy for our brethren. Also please do not jump to the conclusion that I think that being a part of this Forum has any bearing on someone's elect status, it does not, that is totally under God's control.

My point is that the problems we encounter from time to time can actually be a blessing if we strive to seek His will and wisdom when we feel our beast healing or our old (carnal) man springing into action in frustration and anger.

We will all learn this eventually, in this age or the next, let's all pray to obtain His Spiritual fruits as we experience these challenges and tribulations.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe 

[Amrhrasach]

Lucid.

Your "point", paragraph 11 speaks volumes to me.

Thank you Joe.

[KristaD]

Wow, Joe, I've never seen those scriptures that way. You are absolutely right, we should be treating each other as family. It's just so hard, for me at least, to find the balance between love/forgiveness/patience and reprove/rebuke/exhort ?? I always try (with my family especially) to do both at the same time but it seems that most people think that rebuking a sin is a judgment of them and the opposite of love. So what do we do? This is something I have been struggling with lately.

[kweli]

Hello brother Joe (I'd call you father but we know that's not allowed)

I am with you through and through. I must just make a note that it is not easy. True, it gets easier as we grow (spiritually) but it is never easy. You made a great point that we come here hoping for a peaceful oasis. I believe that is actually the very nature of our Saviour. And also, we live around great persecution from our very own families. It would be ideal to find peace, even when in disagreement. We know we are not to conduct ourselves the way the world does. I believe we are supposed to learn to turn the other cheek right here. That, to me, is how we clean the inside of the cup so that the outside may be clean. I think you understand what I mean by this.

I dont know if anybody (in the 'right' spirit, with the 'right' motives and intentions) would get ticked off to a point where they would disfellowship themselves from the forum. Even apostles who were ordained by Jesus disagreed, but not to a point of withdrawing themselves. But I have not doubt that if we are out for each others well-being, it will not be as hard as it is now to just be in unity, unlike the ones who would protect their beliefs over caring for another (that is how the Pharisees conducted themselves).

I hope this is more edifying than anything else. Believe me when I say this is more for me than anyone else.

All Glory to HIM

[Matt]

Thanks for the great discussion  .
I am reminded that I should not be upset when the Lord has decided that it is time to "learn my lesson".
Actually, I should  feel honored that He is actively showing me my faults and helping me to improve myself, and eventually hate that particular sin in my life. 
It is getting easier for me to do this the past year or so, though I am being tested at my new job here in CA .

Matt

[hillsbororiver]

Lucid.

Your "point", paragraph 11 speaks volumes to me.

Thank you Joe.

Me too Brother, me too!

You are very welcome,

Joe

Wow, Joe, I've never seen those scriptures that way. You are absolutely right, we should be treating each other as family. It's just so hard, for me at least, to find the balance between love/forgiveness/patience and reprove/rebuke/exhort ?? I always try (with my family especially) to do both at the same time but it seems that most people think that rebuking a sin is a judgment of them and the opposite of love. So what do we do? This is something I have been struggling with lately.

Hi Krista,

I certainly can empathize with what you wrote, it is difficult even with our own families, now we have two to deal with!

Mat 12:46  While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. (I just noticed how extremely important the second comma is in this verse!) 

Mat 12:47  Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

Mat 12:48  But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

Mat 12:49  And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

Mat 12:50  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother and sister and mother.

As to your second point we have this to contemplate;

Mat 18:15  Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Mat 18:16  But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Mat 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.

Mat 18:21  Then came Peter to him and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? till seven times?

Mat 18:22  Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

You are right Sister, it ain't easy! But all things are possible with God.

Peace,

Joe

P.S.

Kweli, there is nothing I can add to your post, very thoughtful comments and most worthy of contemplation.

His Peace and Wisdom to you all,

Joe

[Samson]

Hello Joe,

             I greatly appreciated your Post, it's true that sometimes we say something unintentionally towards others and it's bound to happen. My Philosophy(just a figure of speech) is that unless someone Posts something that is clearly Heresy to these teachings, their is no need for others to criticize another's view point or feelings. We should be cautious to not attach the individual as Ray expresses in his E-mails, He often states that he doesn't attach the individual, instead he addresses the heritical teaching expressed by these individuals. I think of Jesus when interacting with the common rank & file people of his time being consoling, non-judgemental, forgiving; realizing they are " beaten up " enough by the outside World(Religious Leaders, Polititians and the rich affluent class) and he proceeded to show mercy to those humble and downcast. Most of his criticism was directed to the Religious Leaders as expressed at Matthew Chapter 24.

             My approach when confronted with a comment directed toward me that could be contrued as offensive or a slight is to try hard to apply the counsel at Romans.12:16-21. On one occasion, a couple of months ago I retaliated to a forum member, apparently they hit a nerve when criticizing the thread I started, it was corrected by the Moderators and life goes on. After that episode(learning experience), I really try to just, not reply and let it go. If someone Posts something that might be contrued as Heritical or leaning towards Heresy, I think it's better to let the Moderators handle it. Instead of trying to correct everyone else, I need to look inwards at myself and when I become flawless(Ha Ha), then I will be in a position to scrutinize others, besides if an individual has a beef or complaint, they should go to that person privately(personal message) in harmony with Matthew. 18:15-17, don't make these little petty differences public.

                        These are only my opinions and feelings, even though I realize what it says at 1Peter. 4:12, " Beloved ones, do not be puzzled at the burning among you, which is happening to you for a trial, as through a strange thing were befalling you". This Scripture is certainly presenting the facts, but humility on our parts can help minimize it's affects.

                                             Your Brother, Samson.

[mharrell08]

Great post Joe...well said



Marques

[OBrenda]

Perfection....Joe!
I was initially surprised with some of the tension, but it felt very familiar to me just like my family!  Our flesh always seeks what is comfortable!  The way I understand it, no one person can demonstrate all Gods Wisdom & Counsel.  We are called the Body of Christ, we have different parts, (personalities) that He created and designed to function to do Gods Pleasure.  Why do the ones that are Hands, despise and war with those that are feet? Because we don't understand or recognize Christ in them.

In my family my "Didactic Personality" is not always appreciated.  If someone comes to me with something, I'm wired to respond with Suggestions and point out another way of looking at the situation!  It was a great revelation to me to find out sometimes people don't need ME to fix or figure it out, they just wanted a hug or understanding and just someone to listen to them.

There are also those that just seem to plant themselves in the Mud, and all the support and listening doesn't get them out of the Mud Hole.  And they need someone to say "Hey You Need A Shower"!
Don't you see this in the posts with the different responses?

Look....if I'm starting to smell funky I want people around me who aren't afraid to stick out their hand and help to shove me in a Shower! Will my feelings be hurt?  You can count on it!  Hopefully someone else will hand me a bar of soap and a nice clean towel and tell me about how they fell in a mud puddle themselves!

I'm trying to grow into being sensitive to how God would have me respond, and not just lean on "God just made me this Way"  God hasn't finished making us......If so I better pack my sunglasses and sunscreen!
(I'm trying to overcome my Pride and know It All arrogance!)
With all of you as my Family I can only Grow in the Hope we are all awaiting...

   

[gmik]

Great food for thought Joe.

Hey, Matthew.  Glad you are back on!  Hope the transition to CA went well.  Glad you are back in the good ole' USA.

[CEO]

Hi Joe

Good observation.

It is still a shocker to me that we can hear the truth, the real truth, and not be astounded and elated and feeling the earthquake and hungry and thirsty for more more more.

But the parable of the seeds and the sower prove we can hear it , embrace it , and then reject it.  Members come on the forum and last only a short time, taking offense.  The early church which had the apostles and the true truth, lost it as soon as the apostles died, replacing it with traditions of man, prove we can have it and lose it.  That still amazes me.

askseeknock

Charles

[Heidi]

Joe, I am so glad that you posted this topic...I have not been posting heaps, but read the forum on a daily basis to keep up with the subject matter.  I have noticed some friction and it made me feel me bit disheartened....having read your post....not any more!  I pray I never take offence...we should all live in unity, just as Jesus prayed in John 17 

Love
Heidi

[hillsbororiver]

Thank you everyone for all the positive feedback.

You know this striving for the spiritual while we are imprisoned in this flesh is the hardest thing we will ever have to go through but the reward will be better than anything we could ever imagine. One of the things that make our journey so difficult is how we naturally seek a comfort zone whether it be with people or even doctrine/spiritual truth/beliefs. When this "comfort" is shaken we can be prone to that beastly old man taking control once again.

I wish I could remember the member who stated "being likeminded is not everyone thinking the same, but everyone seeking the same goal, Christ." As true a statement as I ever have read here, keeping this is mind we are all in a slightly different place along this journey and as we would not expect to see the same exact things if we were miles apart in a physical journey the same holds true in our spiritual journey.

Learning patience and giving benefit of the doubt (of ulterior motives) doesn't mean naively accepting anything and everything that comes our way but rather to slow things down, pray for spiritual discernment and for edifying words not knee jerk responses coming off the top of our (carnal) heads.

This has certainly been a struggle for me but thank God He is working on it and as I look back (which sometimes is the only way to see it) at how often I was guilty of this I really can see improvement, not all the way there but further along.

Again, thank you all very much for the thoughtful posts.

Peace,

Joe

[Kent]

I am writing this because I too have stumbled in this regard, many of you are far ahead of me in patience and empathy for our brethren.

I dont see that. But I am not here everyday
But seriously, like you said, where will you not find friction? Most, if not all of us are mature enough to know that other people have different opinions. There can be unity with conflict. If I disagree with you on something, do you really think I wont risk life and limb to help you?

If it is a conflict of opinion, what is the harm? If it is a conflict of egos, then trouble brews, imo.

Not all conflict is bad. IIRC, Christ had some rather heated conflicts with the "rulers". If we are to be Christ-like, then we need to be able to face conflict, imo. Christ didnt back down, so why should we? If we are wrong in our opinions, we learn. Right? It teaches humility, imo.

What doesnt kill us, makes us stronger. Conflict is good, imo.

What I personally see is people taking the easy way out and avoiding conflicts to keep some kind of pseudo peace where resentment festers. I am not talking about here at this forum, I am talking about what happens in real life.

Or, Gods' will is going to be done, so I'll just go along for the ride. It gives a person some kind of justification to do nothing. I'd like to know what scripture tells us to just do nothing, and let God do everything. Seems He has something to say about cowardice and slothfulness.

Fish or cut bait. Lead, follow, or get out of the way. Lots of cliches I can come up with here... But I am far from perfect. I am lazy too, so dont think for 1 microsecond that I dont include myself in this too. It's strange how sometimes I can pick my own battles, and let other battles slide. I am not consistent.

[Dave in Tenn]

Might have been the Gosepl according to Shakespeare, but it isn't usually a good idea to take up somebody else's offence. 

Brenda hit the points I would have made.  Not only are we 'different' in the natural (temperment, nationality, history and life experience) but in our developing body-of-Christ parts. 

As a newbie, all I can say is God bless this forum.  I'm so thankful that it is here as an adjunct to the website.  But forums are forums. We have smilies and emoticons instead of facial expressions.  We have complete thoughts laid down in text rather than feeling our way through conversation.  They CAN turn into manifestos. 

Anyway.  Great points raised by all.  Thanks Joe.

[jakfr0s]

  Kent you said,    "Or, Gods' will is going to be done, so I'll just go along for the ride. It gives a person some kind of justification to do nothing. I'd like to know what scripture tells us to just do nothing, and let God do everything. Seems He has something to say about cowardice and slothfulness."

That confuses me cause Iam one of those who believes that he cant do a thing without God willing it. Am I misunderstanding these verses or misunderstanding you?

  John 15:5 (New International Version)
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Proverbs 16:9
The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

  Maybe Im wrong but it sounds like God is the driver and Im the passenger just going along for the ride and I have no choice or say with what happens. This is something that has been on my mind for awhile now. I admit Im lazy,but is it not God that wills me to be this way for now?  Please help me understand Who decides ultimately wether I do something or do nothing? I honestly thought God has planned for each and every life to be the way it is and where it is. Please understand that im just trying to understand what you said. I think I would have understood you  when I still believed in free will. Not to contradict you or anything but im asking cause I honestly want to know what you mean and what the above verses mean. 

[Kent]

By answering that, I am walking a fine line by "teaching". I dont want to do that, and I know that the mods here dont want me to do that. I am not a teacher. I just expressed an opinion.

I'll just say this: What if Ray was just along for the ride, and didnt bother putting up this website, figuring "it all comes out in the wash", and didn't bother doing the work he does continually. Faith without works is dead. James Ch 2. We are blessed by the work he has done here. I am not just saying that.

You wouldnt believe how much nonsense I sifted thru to find the answers here on this site. I am talking everything from mainstream doctrines to blatant racism to some new age ideas to lizard people.

It is in plain view. That is one of the mysteries I do not totally understand. I know the answer, but I dont understand it. If the answers are so obvious, why cant most other people see them? Why do they get so hostile?
Why did I struggle so hard?

Did God bless Rays' work? In my OPINION he sure did. Did God direct his steps? IMO He sure did. But he still worked.

That is how I see it. 

And, on what basis are people going to be rewarded? Isn't it based on work(s)?

It's all my opinion, and that is all it is. And like I said earlier, I have my faults too, believe it.

[winner08]

JakfrOs let me tell you what I told my friend who ask me a question on free will and making choices. I said that God creates the circumstances we find ourselves in at any given moment in time. We however make the choices that God's circumstances creates. God is responsible for creating the circumstances and we are responsible for the choices we make,due to the circumstances we find ourselves in. For instance, Let's say God creates the circumstances for me to buy a Harley, (Bike). Maby a really good job that Pa's real well. God created this situation for me. I however make the choice on my own to buy a Harley.  I buy a helmet,But it is too hot to ware it so I make the choice not to ware the helmet. God created the circumstance by creating the weather I made the choice not to ware the helmet.God gave us a brain so that we may process information and then make a decisions or choices. Ultimately we are responsible for making the choices we make. Does this make any since to you? It took a very long time before I grasp this. Remember I am just relaying a story I told my friend.I am not a teacher, and most of the time I Way off on many things. I hope this is not one.


                                   Thanks,

                                           Darren

[iris]

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index,php/topic,492.0.html

Hope this helps a little. Ray says in an email...


Your struggles is no different from many other saints that have gone before you. Here is the simple truth about whether it is all a done deal in our lives, or whether there is something for us to do as Believers in Christ:

"For by GRACE are ye saved [that's a true statement] through FAITH [that's also a true statement]; and that [that 'faith'] not of yourselves: it is the GIFT [and that too is a true statement--a gift can't be 'earned'] of God. NOT OF WORKS [that certainly is also a true statement] lest any man should boast.  For we are HIS workmanship [the Greek is 'His achievement'--and that again is certainly true, we can't make ourselves spirituall converted and mature], created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, Which God has before ordained that we SHOULD WALK IN THEM [now where did that come from?  Are we now to assume that that statement is NOT TRUE?  That there are NO WORKS involved in our salvation, when God ordained that we MUST WALK IN GOOD WORKS?]" (Eph. 2:8-10).

God gives us FAITH, and God grants us GRACE, and with that He works out His achievement in us by causing us to DO GOOD WORKS, and don't let any two-faced lying hypocritical false prophet ever tell you differently.

Our "good works" will not save us, but God will save no one in whom He does not ORDAIN GOOD WORKS that they must walk in.



Iris

[Vangie]

I feel so wishy washy, because as I read everyone's posts, I'm like, "I get what he's saying, that makes sense".  Then a different person says another thoughtful viewpoint, and I'm like, "Wow, that's good too."  I agree with everyone.  What a mush I've become.     Great thread, thank you all for being here.

Love in Christ,
Vangie