> General Discussions
Was "the rich man in hell"
broken:
--- Quote from: Mickyd ---
--- Quote from: broken ---So, how do you interpret that passage?
--- End quote ---
I stand by my original statements in light of everything else contained in the New Testament.
--- End quote ---
I read your original statements; what I'm missing is the significance of your assertion that the "gulf" is the result of Jewish assimilation of pagan ideas. What point are you trying to make? Does this make the use of the image invalid or does it change the meaning? How are we to understand Jesus' understanding of Law and righteousness if we discount all that he says that is not explicitly derived from Torah or the Tanakh?
--- Quote from: Mickyd ---
--- Quote from: broken ---P.S. Oh, and you didn't address the fact that the "gulf" notion is described in the Mishnah, not simply derived from "pagan" sources.
--- End quote ---
I'm not really familiar with the Mishnah...please enlighten. :)
--- End quote ---
The Mishnah is rabbinical interpretation of the Tanakh. Rabbis would take a portion of scripture and then write a long, detailed commentary. For some groups who followed certain Rabbis, these interpretations were considered either on the level with the authority of Scripture (such as the writings of the Teacher of Righteousness at the Qumran community) or just less authoritative than the Scripture itself.
Brandon
broken:
--- Quote from: ugthemc ---a parable?
"And in hell [Gk: ‘hades’] he [the Rich man] lift up his eyes, being in torment, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23
I've heard that the above passage is "not headed in the Narratives as a parable". and if it was indeed literal, then Mrs. Smith's whole arguement of hell not being literal is false
--- End quote ---
This passage is most certainly a parable.
That doesn't make Ray's exegesis of if correct; it just means that we should not base a solid theology of hell on this particular passage. It does, however, shed light on how Jesus viewed the afterlife as well as the residing places of souls prior to the resurrections of Revelation 20&21.
In the end the passage has no bearing on the belief in or against hell.
Brandon
Mickyd:
--- Quote from: broken ---I read your original statements; what I'm missing is the significance of your assertion that the "gulf" is the result of Jewish assimilation of pagan ideas. What point are you trying to make? Does this make the use of the image invalid or does it change the meaning? How are we to understand Jesus' understanding of Law and righteousness if we discount all that he says that is not explicitly derived from Torah or the Tanakh?
--- End quote ---
I have based my statements on the following points.
1. To whom he was speaking.....the Pharisees
2. What he said before the parable.
"And the PHARISEES also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. And he said unto them, YE ARE THEY WHICH JUSTIFY YOURSELVES BEFORE MEN; but God knoweth your hearts: FOR THAT WHICH IS HIGHLY ESTEEMED AMONG MEN IS ABOMINATION IN THE SIGHT OF GOD" Luke 16:14-15
These statements from Jesus to the Pharisees leads me to believe that what ever he said from this point on would be directed at them.
3. The statement about Adultery
"Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery." Luke 15:18
I said that Jesus was speaking of "spiritual" adultery. I offer the following verses as support...
"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the LAW HATH DOMINION OVER A MAN AS LONG AS HE LIVETH? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an ADULTERESS: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man." Rom 7:1-3
"Then certain of the SCRIBES and of the PHARISEES answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, AN EVIL AND ADULTEROUS generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:" Mat 12:38-39
These verses, along with the well documented history of the Jews straying from the Law and fornicating with other beliefs in the Old Testament is why I believe that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man was directed at those who Jesus was speaking to. The Rich Man being the Pharasees, Lazarus being "whom God helps". Strong #2976
The whole point of my post from the beginning was that everyone seems to overlook Luke 16:14-18 as support that Lazarus and the Rich Man is indeed a parable.
--- Quote from: broken ---The Mishnah is rabbinical interpretation of the Tanakh. Rabbis would take a portion of scripture and then write a long, detailed commentary. For some groups who followed certain Rabbis, these interpretations were considered either on the level with the authority of Scripture (such as the writings of the Teacher of Righteousness at the Qumran community) or just less authoritative than the Scripture itself.
--- End quote ---
As I said, I had not heard of the Mishnah. If the "Gulf" mentioned is quoted in it, then I must take your word for it. However, I don't believe that Jesus was too fond of the work of the Rabbis of his time. There are many writtings that are a product of Rabbinical Judaism that are concidered "authoritative", such as Kabballah, which was a rabbinical interpretation of the Torah. This work turned out to be the basis for modern Satanism and was also around during the days of Jesus.
Peacetroll:
Interesting posts. I must agree with those who understand that it is a metaphor (parable).
Hell is also a metaphor for total destruction (netherworld) gone...forever.
Peace.
Mickyd:
--- Quote from: broken ---
--- Quote from: ugthemc ---a parable?
"And in hell [Gk: ‘hades’] he [the Rich man] lift up his eyes, being in torment, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23
I've heard that the above passage is "not headed in the Narratives as a parable". and if it was indeed literal, then Mrs. Smith's whole arguement of hell not being literal is false
--- End quote ---
This passage is most certainly a parable.
That doesn't make Ray's exegesis of if correct; it just means that we should not base a solid theology of hell on this particular passage. It does, however, shed light on how Jesus viewed the afterlife as well as the residing places of souls prior to the resurrections of Revelation 20&21.
In the end the passage has no bearing on the belief in or against hell.
Brandon
--- End quote ---
Brandon,
In making this statement...
--- Quote from: broken ---It does, however, shed light on how Jesus viewed the afterlife as well as the residing places of souls prior to the resurrections of Revelation 20&21.
--- End quote ---
By saying this you are saying that Jesus was confirming the immortality of the soul. If the soul is immortal, then the following verses are a lie.
"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them; as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast; for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." Eccl 3:19-20
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the SPIRIT shall return unto God who gave it." Eccl 12:7
"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thank?" Ps 6:5
"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that day his thoughts perish." Ps 146:4
Immortality of the soul comes from the same pagan sources as the doctrine of eternal torment.
Immortality of the Soul in Jewish Encyclopedia Vol VI pages 564-566
"The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is...speculation...nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture...The belief in the immortality of the soul came to Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended."
Herodotus: "The Egyptians were also the first that asserted that the soul of man is immortal."
Plato: "The soul whose inseperable attitude is life will never admit of life is opposite, death. The soul is shown to be immortal and, since immortal, indestructable...Do we believe there is such a thing as death? To be sure. And is this anything but the separation of the soul from the body?"
Tertullian: "For some things are known, even by nature: the immortality of the soul, for instance is held by many...I may use, therefore the opinion of a Plato when he declared 'every soul is immortal"
I find it strange that Tertullian who was concidered to be the "Father of the Western Church", left the Church of Rome to join a cult called the Heterodox Montanists. I guess that some of these people who had a hand in forming the Church, wasn't so sure of their own beliefs.
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