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Author Topic: Was "the rich man in hell"  (Read 7331 times)

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Steve Crook

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2006, 11:48:22 AM »

exegesis = huge tool for satan to deceive.

It certainly has it's place, but man oh man, how many claim knowledge because of correct context.

(Joh 4:23)  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
(Joh 4:24)  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

(Joh 14:17)  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

(Joh 15:26)  But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

(Joh 16:13)  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

(1Jo 5:6)  This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

(1Co 2:13)  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

(1Jo 4:6)  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

(Col 1:9)  For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
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broken

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2006, 01:02:00 PM »

Quote from: Steve Crook
exegesis = huge tool for satan to deceive.

It certainly has it's place, but man oh man, how many claim knowledge because of correct context.

(Joh 4:23)  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
(Joh 4:24)  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

(Joh 14:17)  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

(Joh 15:26)  But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

(Joh 16:13)  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

(1Jo 5:6)  This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

(1Co 2:13)  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

(1Jo 4:6)  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

(Col 1:9)  For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;


Do you know what exegesis is?  If you ignore or even downplay context as well as the delving into Scripture to uncover its meaning then you have no right to speak on Scripture whatsoever.

This is why authorities do not post on forums such as these.  They find it a waste of time for the very reason that you posted above.

Brandon
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Mickyd

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2006, 01:03:32 PM »

Quote from: Steve Crook
exegesis = huge tool for satan to deceive.

It certainly has it's place, but man oh man, how many claim knowledge because of correct context.

(Joh 4:23)  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
(Joh 4:24)  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

(Joh 14:17)  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

(Joh 15:26)  But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

(Joh 16:13)  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

(1Jo 5:6)  This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

(1Co 2:13)  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

(1Jo 4:6)  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

(Col 1:9)  For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;


I agree Steve.....but we must answer carnal questions with carnal answers.
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broken

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2006, 01:07:24 PM »

Quote from: Mickyd


I agree Steve.....but we must answer carnal questions with carnal answers.


May I ask how exegesis is a carnal thing?

Brandon
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Mickyd

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2006, 01:15:33 PM »

Quote from: broken
May I ask how exegesis is a carnal thing?

Brandon


When you seak a critical interpretation or an explanation of a Bible verse in the "Letter" of interpretation, in what other way can it be other than carnal?
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Steve Crook

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2006, 03:41:14 PM »

Quote
Do you know what exegesis is? If you ignore or even downplay context as well as the delving into Scripture to uncover its meaning then you have no right to speak on Scripture whatsoever.

This is why authorities do not post on forums such as these. They find it a waste of time for the very reason that you posted above.

Brandon


Guess not? Does it take a seminary school for that? Or is that a cemetery school? I'm so stupid I can't tell the difference. Actually scirpture EXPLAINS scripture, and the LETTER OF THE LAW KILLS; whereas, the SPIRIT brings LIFE.

Here, I wonder if this silly little man can find out what exegesis is? Simple Google search: exegesis

Exegesis (from the Greek ἐξηγεῖσθαι 'to lead out') involves an extensive and critical interpretation of a text, especially of a holy scripture, such as of the Old and New Testaments of the Bible, the Talmud, the Midrash, the Qur'an, etc. An exegete is a practitioner of this science, and the adjectival form is exegetic.

The word exegesis means "to draw the meaning out of" a given text. Exegesis may be contrasted with eisegesis, which means to read one's own interpretation into a given text. In general, exegesis presumes an attempt to view the text objectively, while eisegesis implies more subjectivity.

Traditional exegesis requires the following: analysis of significant words in the text in regard to translation; examination of the general historical and cultural context, confirmation of the limits of the passage, and lastly, examination of the context within the text. [1]

Although the most widely-known exegeses concern themselves with Christian, Jewish and Islamic books, analyses also exist of books of other religions.

Main article: Biblical hermeneutics
According to some forms of Christianity, two different forms of exegesis exist: revealed and rational.

Revealed exegesis considers that the Holy Ghost inspired the authors of the scriptural texts, and so the words of those texts convey a divine revelation
 
Rational exegesis bases its operation on the idea that the authors have their own inspiration, so their works result from human intelligence

----------------------------------------------------------------
Instead of argue with carnal minded men about carnal minded things, I'd rather just let the Lord speak for me instead: Thus sayeth the Lord:

(1Co 2:14)  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

(1Co 3:19)  For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise  in their own craftiness.

Is that a good enough definition?
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broken

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2006, 11:55:29 PM »

Quote from: Steve Crook
Quote
Do you know what exegesis is? If you ignore or even downplay context as well as the delving into Scripture to uncover its meaning then you have no right to speak on Scripture whatsoever.

This is why authorities do not post on forums such as these. They find it a waste of time for the very reason that you posted above.

Brandon


Guess not? Does it take a seminary school for that? Or is that a cemetery school? I'm so stupid I can't tell the difference. Actually scirpture EXPLAINS scripture, and the LETTER OF THE LAW KILLS; whereas, the SPIRIT brings LIFE.

Here, I wonder if this silly little man can find out what exegesis is? Simple Google search: exegesis

Exegesis (from the Greek ?????????? 'to lead out') involves an extensive and critical interpretation of a text, especially of a holy scripture, such as of the Old and New Testaments of the Bible, the Talmud, the Midrash, the Qur'an, etc. An exegete is a practitioner of this science, and the adjectival form is exegetic.

The word exegesis means "to draw the meaning out of" a given text. Exegesis may be contrasted with eisegesis, which means to read one's own interpretation into a given text. In general, exegesis presumes an attempt to view the text objectively, while eisegesis implies more subjectivity.

Traditional exegesis requires the following: analysis of significant words in the text in regard to translation; examination of the general historical and cultural context, confirmation of the limits of the passage, and lastly, examination of the context within the text. [1]

Although the most widely-known exegeses concern themselves with Christian, Jewish and Islamic books, analyses also exist of books of other religions.

Main article: Biblical hermeneutics
According to some forms of Christianity, two different forms of exegesis exist: revealed and rational.

Revealed exegesis considers that the Holy Ghost inspired the authors of the scriptural texts, and so the words of those texts convey a divine revelation
 
Rational exegesis bases its operation on the idea that the authors have their own inspiration, so their works result from human intelligence

----------------------------------------------------------------
Instead of argue with carnal minded men about carnal minded things, I'd rather just let the Lord speak for me instead: Thus sayeth the Lord:

(1Co 2:14)  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

(1Co 3:19)  For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise  in their own craftiness.

Is that a good enough definition?



Way to google it up there, bud.

Yeah, you got a fine definition of exegesis, but how you can call it carnal I still do not understand.  Biblical interpretation is about understanding the text, the words used, what they meant to those who heard them and what they mean in light of other Scripture.  Without those elements, our interpretations are seriously flawed.  The Bible was written to a people in a time; if we ignore that, then we downplay the timing of God and wisdom of God in delivering His word at the time He saw fit.  What about, "study to show yourself approved."  How about loving God with all of your mind as well as everything else.

I guess I just really don't understand your rationale.  It seems to me that you are claiming that those who engage in true exegesis are guilty of using their mind too much and not relying on the Spirit enough.  However, pure exegesis is about looking at the whole of Scripture and understanding it in its historical and social contexts, pairing those understandings to find the deeper, universal meaning, and then applying that to our lives.  It seems that if we are dealing with something as powerful and true as God's Word, we would want to understand it as deeply as possible.

Brandon

P.S. - When you look up a word in a lexicon or quote someone who has published some paper on a subject on which you speak, are you not advocating at least some form of scholarship - especially with regards to lexicons?  It seems you have a double standard.

P.S.S. - Wherever you got your definition of "revealed" verses "rational" exegesis, they are wrong.  Rational exegesis does not assume that the authors were under their own interpretation and therefore not inspired by the Spirit.  Rather, rational exegesis is philosophically thinking through the words of Scripture and taking the claims and assertations to their logical end.
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broken

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2006, 11:59:30 PM »

Quote from: Mickyd
Quote from: broken
May I ask how exegesis is a carnal thing?

Brandon


When you seak a critical interpretation or an explanation of a Bible verse in the "Letter" of interpretation, in what other way can it be other than carnal?


1. What do you mean by "Letter?"

2. How do you define "carnal?"

Brandon
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Steve Crook

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2006, 12:37:07 AM »

I googled it and the first link was from wikipedia when I typed exegesis.
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broken

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2006, 12:44:15 AM »

Quote from: Steve Crook
I googled it and the first link was from wikipedia when I typed exegesis.


I must apologize.  I have seemed really harsh in the past few posts.  I don't mean to come off that way; that's the inconvenience and shortcoming of this form of communication.  I just really want to understand where you are coming from.

Wikipedia tends to be a pretty good source for general information.  Perhaps there is a branch of "rational exegesis" that believes what you read on Wikipedia, but the more conservative branches tend to use "rational exegesis" in the manner I described; at least that has been my experience.

Brandon

P.S. - Be careful "googling" for information; the internet is full of shoddy workmanship and interpretation, as well as shoddy scholarship.
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Falconn003

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2006, 01:37:47 AM »

broken

Quote
the internet is full of shoddy workmanship and interpretation, as well as shoddy scholarship
.

Your warning is so unbelievable,   i do not know how to thank one such as you for bringing down this facade.

Well thank you very much for that bit of info, as i now feel a whole lot safer walkin the the streets of the internet.

If not for warnings like these, we would not be able to recognize this evil.

Rodger  :wink:
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broken

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2006, 01:44:21 AM »

Quote from: Falconn003
broken

Quote
the internet is full of shoddy workmanship and interpretation, as well as shoddy scholarship
.

Your warning is so unbelievable,   i do not know how to thank one such as you for bringing down this facade.

Well thank you very much for that bit of info, as i now feel a whole lot safer walkin the the streets of the internet.

If not for warnings like these, we would not be able to recognize this evil.

Rodger  :wink:


Your sarcasm is unappreciated.

Brandon
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Falconn003

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2006, 01:45:39 AM »

neither is yours so get over your self already

Rodger
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broken

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2006, 01:54:03 AM »

Quote from: Falconn003
neither is yours so get over your self already

Rodger


Look, I made my apology to Steve.  Let him answer for himself.

And please, resort to intelligent conversation, not belligerent belittling.

Brandon
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Falconn003

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2006, 01:55:41 AM »

well broken brando i would ...that is if you showed some intelect.

and not just your oat meal box exam score.   :wink:

Rodger
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broken

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2006, 01:59:08 AM »

Quote from: Falconn003
well broken brando i would ...that is if you showed some intelect.

and not just your oat meal box exam score.   :wink:

Rodger


First, I have no idea what I did to you to make you so belligerent toward me.

Secondly, I have not said anything to show that I lack in intellect.

Thirdly, with such personal, cold remarks without any constructive conversation, you're not making a very good case for yourself.

I'm just trying to have conversation here.

If you wish to discuss anything I'm open to conversation, but only in a civil, honest, humble manner.

Brandon
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Falconn003

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2006, 02:01:38 AM »

then why not open your mind instead and if you do not agree with other let the chips fall were they may.

no offense on my part, your not being fair with others here, you demand this or that. yet all that is asked of you is a bit of consideration.
is this a alot to ask from someone such as your self . or are you that above humility.

Rodger
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broken

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2006, 02:07:39 AM »

Quote from: Falconn003
then why not open your mind in stead and if you do not agree with other let the chips fall were they may.

no offense on my part, your not being fair with others here, you demand this or that. yet all that is asked of you is a bit of consideration.
is this a alot to ask from someone such as your self . or are you that above humility.

Rodger


I'm trying to be coniderate, but being "open minded" around here usually means accepting as absolute truth the doctrines that others believe here.  I cannot do that.  Open mindedness is simply about being open to the possibility that one's ideas are wrong, and I see none of that here.  Should it be expected in return?

And what demands have I made?  I simply ask for and expect defenses based on both Scripture and reason.  That is not too much to expect in conversation.  At least, I don't think it is.  Am I wrong?

Brandon
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Falconn003

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2006, 02:14:15 AM »

broken brandon

open minded is not closing your self to another person perspective.

you want people to listen to your message why not do the same and hush and listen some times. if nothing gets through, simple thank the person and carry one with your ministry.  

why be obtuse towards the person you are conversing with.

If your ministry carries sound doctrine then nothing can twart it right.

But if you, yourself go off on a tangent away from your ministry, becasue of some heated exchange, then your intentions, message and ministry are questionable are they not.

Rodger
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