Ezek 28:13, Is 14: 13-14

[fstamp]

Interpretation of these two would be helpful.


Thanks, Fstamp...

[hillsbororiver]

I think I know where this is going so I thought I would post a bit from LOF Part 9;

ONE OF THE BIGGEST LIES IN ALL CHRISTENDOM

("How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer")

Theologians have been teaching for centuries now that Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 give us a perfect explanation of how a perfect Lucifer changed himself into Lucifer the Devil.

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." (Isa. 14:-12-14).

"Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus says the Lord God; Thou seal up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. You have been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of your tabrets and of your pipes was prepared in you in the day that you were created. You are the anointed cherub that covers; and I have set you so: you were upon the holy mountain of God; you have walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you"

"By the multitude of your merchandise they have filled the midst of you with violence, and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty, you have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness: I will cast you to the ground, I will lay you before kings, and they may behold you" (Ezek. 28:12-17).

This, we are told, is a perfect description of how perfect Lucifer, a shining light bringing archangel/cherub, became Satan the Devil. Is there any truth to this theory? We will see.

This theory suits Satan just fine, and more so, it fits Christendom even 'finer.' With this theory (or more correctly 'hypothesis'), Christendom has the perfect solution to how they can justifiably consign billions of humans to an eternal lake of fire. With their "free will" firmly established in their deceived minds, Christendom can now teach the world that Satan CHOSE to do evil and has not repented, and most of mankind has also CHOSEN to do evil and not repent, therefore they are all thrown into an eternal lake burning with fire, and God is not the least bit responsible.

The Church believes it has accomplished a most marvelous thing: they have gotten God off the hook of responsibility for all of the sickness, disease, pain, suffering, sin, evil, terrorism, and death in the world. You see, without free will, God could never know who is for Him and who is against Him—it's the only way, the only "fair" way, and God is fair and God is good. Doesn't this make good carnal sense, and everyone is happy? It is rank heresy at the highest level; that is what it is!

Prepare yourself for a revelation: Satan was never perfect and then decided by his phantom free will to become a devil, neither has a single human started out perfect and then decided by his free will to become a sinner! Now I am well aware of the fact that people are deceived about these things, as was I. But the Scriptural truth of these matters will set us free from centuries of unscriptural traditions. The problem with this "Lucifer fell" theory is twofold: poor translation and poor interpretation. Let's go through it.

First Isaiah 14. To whom is God addressing Himself in these verses we quoted above?

"That you shall take up this proverb against the KING OF BABYLON..." (Ver. 4)

God is speaking of and to and about, "the King of Babylon," not Lucifer, not Satan, not a cherub. And God tells us the end of this man's reign:

"Your pomp is brought down to the grave [Satan never died or was put in a grave], and the noise of your viols [harps or lutes]: the worm [or maggots] is spread under you [can maggots eat a spirit body], and the worms cover you" (Ver. 11).

But is not this "Lucifer" of verse 14 Satan the Devil?

Ray has written extensively about this so there is too much information to post in a thread, read the entire article here;

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html

Peace,

Joe

[Kat]

Hi fstamp,

We know that this is not speaking of Satan, because of Ray has proven that from the Scripture that Joe had posted.  Joe posted the Isa 14: 13-14 answer. But I think the verse you are questioning Eze. 28:13 can be a little confusing, but Ray also clears that up in the same article no. 9 in the Lake of fire series.

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ------------

Continuing with verse 13:

"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God... in the day that you were created."

Here we are told is even more proof that this is speaking of Satan. After all, wasn't Satan in the garden of "Eden" and wasn't Satan a "created" being?

The word translated "Eden" in this verse is the same word or root translated Eden 20 times in the Hebrew Scriptures. Sometimes it has reference to the "garden" that God planted in the area of the country called Eden. Sometimes it has reference to other lands near the area of Eden, and not the garden of Eden. Sometimes it refers to the "children of Eden" as in II Kings 19:12. And I think everyone is aware of the fact that Adam and Eve had NO CHILDREN in the "garden of Eden." Amos 1:5 speaks of the "house of Eden"—very same Hebrew word translated "Eden" in every occurrence of this word in the Hebrew Manuscripts. And Eden is also the name of several persons in Scripture.

Now back to verse 13 and Eden the garden of God." And so, we see that "Eden" can mean various things, even though Eden is always translated from the same Hebrew word, which is Strong's #5731, Eden, ay'-den; the same as #5730, eden, ay'den; from #5727, pleasure. #5727, adan, aw-dan'; to be soft or pleasant... to live voluptuously.
v
Although the KJV often italicizes words in a verse that were not in the original manuscript, but that are often needed to make the English read better, they do not always do so. Here are the actual translated words for which there is an Hebrew equivalent in verse 13 of Ezek. 28:

"In luxury of garden of God you come be."

"In the luxury of the garden of God you come to be."

Now if we retain that word "of" and insert it into the KJV, we would have this:

"Thou hast been in Eden of the garden of God."

If, as the KJV translation suggests, eden IS the "garden of God," then it cannot ALSO BE "OF" that same garden!

Furthermore don't think that "has been" is necessarily correct either (suggesting that this is speaking of an event long ancient to the lamentation being presently given to Ezekiel), seeing that the Hebrew language, strictly speaking, has no verb forms which express either past or future.

Now please don't think that I am inserting all this detailed information to make my paper more complicated and boring. I am not. I am considering the spiritual welfare of some of you who will, undoubtedly, be challenged by so-called "experts" in the field of translation, grammar, and language. I want you to be prepared.

But isn't this verse speaking of a "created" being, and therefore couldn't it mean Satan, as opposed to the King of Tyrus who was "born" rather than "created" as was Adam and Satan? Not at all!

ARE BABIES BORN, OR DOES GOD CREATE THEM?

Whether one is born of a woman or created directly out of the dust of the ground as was Adam, they are both "creations of God." Here is Scriptural proof that created can be applied to those born of a woman:

"But now thus says the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and He that formed you, O Israel..." (Isa. 43:1).

"...bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Even every one that is called by My name: for I have created him; yea, I have made him" (Isa. 43:6-7).

"Thus says the Lord God concerning the Ammonites... I will judge you [Ammonites] in the place where you were created..." (Ezek. 21:28 & 30).

"Have we not all one father? Has not one God created US [ALL mankind]" (Mal. 2:10).
------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Paul]

Although the KJV often italicizes words in a verse that were not in the original manuscript, but that are often needed to make the English read better, they do not always do so. Here are the actual translated words for which there is an Hebrew equivalent in verse 13 of Ezek. 28:

"In luxury of garden of God you come be."

"In the luxury of the garden of God you come to be."

Now if we retain that word "of" and insert it into the KJV, we would have this:

"Thou hast been in Eden of the garden of God."

If, as the KJV translation suggests, eden IS the "garden of God," then it cannot ALSO BE "OF" that same garden!

Furthermore don’t think that "has been" is necessarily correct either (suggesting that this is speaking of an event long ancient to the lamentation being presently given to Ezekiel), seeing that the Hebrew language, strictly speaking, has no verb forms which express either past or future.

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html

Quoted for emphasis.

The "garden of God" is a metaphor for being blessed.