my friend

[Imabeliever]

I have a friend that I work with who is a born again christian!  I embrace the fact that we're both believers, but there are many things we dont see eye to eye on, so heres my question. I know only GOD will reveal to a person when HE feels it is time, but what do I say when he calls Ray a kelvenist ? I know its not true but what proof do I give that he is not a kelvenist!  He also believes that when we die, we immediately go to heaven or hell and that JESUS went to hell after HE died, Ive tried to tell him what I've learned here and that these doctrines are unscriptural.  All he says is ,"This L. Ray Smith, would be more believeable if he would have gone to some kind of bible school", but these are the very places that these false doctrines are spread!  God has given me so much hope, love, and joy, through Bible Truths I just want to give the good news to all I can, especially friends and loved ones! Any help or advice would be greatly apppreciated! God Bless!

[EKnight]

What's a kevlinist?

Eileen

[Dave in Tenn]

Probably 'Calvinist'.

Your friend is NOT going to burn for an eternity in Hell even if he believes in it.  You're not going to burn in Hell for failing to 'win him' to the truth.  You're probably not yet equipped to 'argue' with him.  I wouldn't be either.  Even if or when you are, you are not the One who has to drag him to Christ.

Continue to grow and develop the fruit of the Spirit.  If he sees a different you eventually, you'll be a more effective witness.  Concentrate on that, and on overcoming.  You've planted a seed, clearly, but it may not be you who waters and harvests.  Trust God.   

Listen to Ray's bible study from 02-03-08.  David linked to it earlier today.  It's good, solid practical advice for just such a situation you encountered. 

[Paul]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin

==

The kelvin (symbol: K) is a unit increment of temperature and is one of the seven SI base units. The Kelvin scale is a thermodynamic (absolute) temperature scale where absolute zero, the theoretical absence of all thermal energy, is zero (0 K). The Kelvin scale and the kelvin are named after the British physicist and engineer William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin (1824–1907), who wrote of the need for an “absolute thermometric scale”.

[Stevernator]

Check out the transcript from Foundational truths.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6452.0.html

Here are some scriptures:

Psa 146:4  His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecc 9:10  ...for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goes.

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything...

And about what your friend said... Can you imagine back in the New Testament time?

"This Peter guy would be a lot more believable if he was educated like the Scribes rather than being a fisherman."

[Paul]

I'd reccomend you give him the following excerpts from the site:

http://pages.citebite.com/e5m9q4o1gdvx

http://pages.citebite.com/y6n7c2b6tdrd

http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#eonian

Part 2 of the Lake of Fire series:

Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it.

http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html

Point out 1 Timothy 4:10, the only indisputable verse, on the surface, in the entire Bible that proves Universal Salvation (and of course be sure to let him know that Hell doesn't even exist and salvation isn't what he thinks it is.) If he's a KJV-onlyist, make sure you point out Titus 1:10 to prove to him that that specially means especially.

Quote these versions of Mat. 25:46 and ask him how they mean an eternal hell hole of torture:

"And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life." (Scarlett's New Testament)

"And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life." (The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson)

"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during." (Young's Literal Translation)

"And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'" (The Twentieth Century New Testament)

"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life." (The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton)

"And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life." (Clementson's The New Testament)

"And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life." (Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott)

"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (The Concordant Literal Version)

"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life." (The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed)

"and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible)

[Credit for those goes to Gary Amirault.]

Point out the inconsistencies with Hell and Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus, and Sheol (see part 16 of the Lake of Fire series.)

Ask him why the proper noun Sheol was split and translated grave 30 times and hell 30 times in the KJV.

Also, this is a good exposé:

http://bible-truths.com/email18.htm#suicide

[Brian]

First, I don't believe you need to defend Mr. Smith. I believe he does an excellent job of that already. To answer your question, you might try the Socratic method. That means to ask questions that, if answered honestly, will lead to an enlightened view. Please keep in mind that you should pray that the Spirit will lead him to understanding. (Eph 1:15-18)

Here are a few sample questions to get you started.

If Hell is real and describes a real place, why does the English word "Hell" come from a pagan source instead of the ancient Hebrew writings of the Bible?
(The word "Hell" comes from the Teutonic "Hele" goddess of the underworld "Hell" of northern Europe . The description of this ancient mythological place has very little resemblance anymore to the modern Christian image of Hell. See any Encyclopedia or dictionary for the origin of the word.)

Why is the word "Hell" not found in the Jew's Bible which is the Christian's Old Testament?
(Because the best scholarship demands it.)

Furthermore, the word "Hell" has completely disappeared from the Old Testament Scriptures in most leading Bibles. Why?
(e.g. KJV vs NIV)

If Hell, as a place of everlasting tortures, was the real fate of all mankind unless they did something here on earth to prevent it, why didn't God make that warning plain right at the beginning of the Bible?
(God said the penalty for eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was DEATH. He did NOT define death as eternal life being forever tortured in burning fire and brimstone.)

If Hell was real why didn't Moses warn about this fate in the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Covenant consisting of over 600 laws, ordinances, and warnings?
(The Mosaic Law simply stated blessings and cursings IN THIS LIFETIME for failure to keep the Mosaic Law.)

If Hell is real and it is a place of eternally being separated from God, why does David say in the King James Bible, "Though I make my bed in Hell (Sheol) lo, Thou art there?
(Again please note, most Christian Bibles NO LONGER have the word "Hell" in the Old Testament. The KJV written over 400 years ago is an exception. The Jews do NOT put the word "Hell" in their English translations of the Hebrew Scriptures, that is, the Old Testament and the leading English Christian Bibles have removed it because it is NOT in the original language. Most Christian scholars now acknowledge it should never have been placed there in the first place.)

If Hell is real and if good people go to heaven and bad people go to Hell, why does EVERYONE, good or bad, go to the same place in the Old Testament? They ALL go to Sheol which the King James Version translated "Hell" 31 times, "grave" 31 times and "pit" three times? Are we all destined to go to Hell or did the King's translators make some gross translation errors?

If Hell is real, why don't the Jews, many who know the Old Testament better than most Christians, not believe in the modern Christian concept of Hell? They say they don't believe it because it is not in their Scriptures. Most scholars today can not find Hell in the Old Testament. Most leading Bible translations no longer contain the word Hell in the entire Old Testament. (Genesis through Malachi.)

If Hell doesn't exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? (There was only the Old Testament at that time.) Would that not make Him appear like a false teacher? Or could it be that Jesus never taught such a concept in the first place? Could it be that this concept has been added to the church and SOME Bibles through "traditions of men?"

If Hell is real, since SOME English translations use the word Hell for the Greek word "Gehenna," in the New Testament, why didn't this same place (Gehenna) get translated Hell in the many places where it appears in the Hebrew form "ga Ben Hinnom" in the Old Testament? If the Jews did not understand this valley as a symbol of everlasting torture, why do SOME English translations give this word such a meaning? And who burned who in this valley? And what was God's response for Israel doing such a horrible thing to their children? (Jer. 32:33-35) And how could God say "such a thing never entered His mind" if in fact He is going to do the very same thing to most of His own children?

If Hell was real, why did the early church appoint an avowed universalist as the President of the second council of the church in Constantinople in the fourth century? (Gregory Nazianzen, 325-381)

If Hell was real, why did Church leaders as late as the fourth century AD acknowledge that the majority of Christians believed in the salvation of all mankind?
(Universalism--The Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years by Dr. J.W. Hanson)

I think you get the point of the questions. One question leads, if honestly answered, to another that leads to Blessing in the Christ. I think that a person whose mental faculties, conscience and heart are still working will come to the reasonable conclusion that the concept of Hell as a place of everlasting punishment leaves a LOT of questions unanswered. Yes, the concept of Hell (and that is all it is, a false concept) seems to violate everything that is reasonable. It violates the nature of God which is unconditional Love. It violates the wisdom of God, the pleasure of God, the promises of God, the oath of God, the power of God; it negates the full power of the cross of the Christ; it goes against the testimony of the prophets; it violates the testimony of Jesus Christ and His apostles; it violates the Scriptures in their original languages; it violates the writings of the early church leaders who read the Scriptures in the original languages; it goes against our conscience and our hearts. Finally, it has the ring of something the subtlest of all creatures would concoct...the greatest lie ever told.

I really hope and pray that your friend will have the eyes of his heart enlightened.
Have a happy and be sage.
Brian 

[Heidi]

Dear Brian...thank you for taking the time to post this....it has been most enlightening....you have given me some food for thought, as I am sure that a lot of us deal with these type of questions asked of us....now we can put the ball in their court for a change 

Love in Christ
Heidi

PS What does ....and be sage mean?? 

[joyful1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin

==

The kelvin (symbol: K) is a unit increment of temperature and is one of the seven SI base units. The Kelvin scale is a thermodynamic (absolute) temperature scale where absolute zero, the theoretical absence of all thermal energy, is zero (0 K). The Kelvin scale and the kelvin are named after the British physicist and engineer William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin (1824–1907), who wrote of the need for an "absolute thermometric scale".

Paul-- Ray is pretty "hot" tempered sometimes....but I wouldn't go so far as to call him a "kelvinist!" Besides.....he even admits that he has NO DEGREES! 
Brian-- good questions! 

[Paul]

Those versions of Mat. 25:46 (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7742.msg61621.html#msg61621) really shine a lot of light on God's punishment, don't they?

[kweli]

Ray is pretty "hot" tempered sometimes....but I wouldn't go so far as to call him a "kelvinist!" Besides.....he even admits that he has NO DEGREES! 

You are funny 
Brian, what the hell are you asking 

[hillsbororiver]

In this bit from LOF Part 15 D Ray comments on Calvinism, what is taught on BT is polar opposite to the despicable teachings of John Calvin;

A Brief Comparative Study of Arminianism and Calvinism

Found at http://www.the-highway.com

This web site has done a fine job in outlining the five points of Arminianism and Calvinism. But I will comment on their content and teaching.

Point 1

Arminianism - Free-Will or Human Ability:

Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner posses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.

Versus:

Calvinism - Total Inability or Total Depravity: Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

Comment: ARMINIANISM is wrong in teaching that BY the 'fall' [sin] mankind was weakened, but did not completely lose his ability to freely choose God. Hence they teach that man does possess free will by which he can repent, believe, and choose, good over evil, but that most will not take advantage of this God-given power, and therefore will be eternally damned and tortured.

Comment: CALVINISM is wrong in teaching that because OF the 'fall' [sin] man no longer possessed the freedom of will to choose God. Hence they teach that man lost his "free will" and therefore cannot of his own will repent, believe, and choose good over evil. And those not preordained for this election will be, of course, eternally damned and tortured. That man cannot of his own will repent, believe, and choose good, is the correct and Scriptural truth, but not because of the reason given by Calvinism.

Point 2

Arminianism - Conditional Election: God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

Versus:

Calvinism - Unconditional Election: God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

Comment: ARMINIANISM wrongly teaches that salvation is offered to all mankind, but that only a certain election are able to freely respond and receive salvation. God foresaw from the foundation of the world, those who would of their own free will choose to repent, believe, and answer God's call completely on their own without any outside assistance from God. And those whom God did not foresee doing this, would of course, be eternally damned and tortured.

Comment: CALVINISM wrongly teaches that only those elected by God from the foundation of the world can possibly be saved, as none others are even considered by God for salvation. Hence those foreknown and chosen will be saved completely by and through God, without any contributions from the elect, and the rest, of course, were foreordained to be (as the Arminians likewise teach) eternally damned and tortured.

Point 3

Arminianism - Universal Redemption or General Atonement: Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

Calvinism - Particular Redemption or Limited Atonement: Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.

Versus:

Comment: ARMINIANISM wrongly teaches that Christ's Sacrifice made it possible for all humanity to be saved, but it did not ASSURE that all humanity would be saved. Couple this with point two, and we have one giant contradiction. How is it "possible" for all humanity to be saved, when God foreknows that most will not be saved? Unbelievable! And yet most of Christendom does believe this unscriptural heresy which saves a few and sends the rest to be eternally damned and tortured.

Comment: CALVINISM wrongly teaches that, although it is God only Who contributes all that is necessary for salvation, this secured salvation is given only to a protion of mankind, the unfortunate rest of which, can do absolutely nothing to bring themselves salvation, and God Himself will do nothing to save them, therefore their preordained destiny from the creation of the world is to be eternally damned and tortured.

Point 4

Arminianism - The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted: The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) proceeds and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Versus:

Calvinism - The Efficacious Call of the Spirit or Irresistible Grace: In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

Comment: ARMINIANISM wrongly teaches that God's Spirit inwardly calls all sinners, but that man's free will enables man to resist the call and thwart the will of God. It is taught that man's contribution to salvation is his faith to believe and be born again, so that the Spirit can do it's part. Those who supposedly have the power to resist God's calling will have to be eternally damned and tortured.

Comment: CALVINISM  wrongly teaches that God calls many to hear the gospel, but not all. And of those whom are called to hear, only a select elect will be empowered by God's gracious election to willing accept God's call to repent, believe, and come to Christ. Those to whom God gave no opportunity whatsoever to be saved will be eternally damned and tortured.

Point 5

Arminianism - Falling from Grace: Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ - that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.

Versus:

Calvinism - Perseverance of the Saints: All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.

Comment: ARMINIANISM wrongly teaches that it is possible to fall from grace by failing to keep one's faith, even though this flatly contradicts their statement that God knows from the foundation of the world those who WILL accept Christ and who WILL be saved. Of course some Arminians believe that once a sinner is brought to Christ he can never fall away. But for all those who "might" fall away, and for all those who never came to Christ in the first place, these will all be eternally damned and tortured.

Comment: CALVINISM wrongly teaches that only a few are actually pre-elected to salvation by God from the foundation of the world, and these will by the grace of God persevere unto the end, while those who were never chosen at all will be eternally damned and tortured.

According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) - man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, "choose" to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be recipients of the gift of salvation.

According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

These are the two main theological doctrines regarding God's Sovereignty and man's supposed free will, with regards to salvation. The controversy between these two views has raged in heated debates for over four centuries. Which one is Scripturally correct? Neither. Both teachings contain gross unscriptural heresy.

THE UNSCRIPTURAL 'FALL OF MAN'

Since both theories stated above teach a "fall of man," it is needful that we briefly address this unscriptural theory. I, as well as most of you have heard of the "fall of man" hundreds if not thousands of times. One would think there is reference to "man's fall" at least a few dozen places in the Bible. NOT. The fabled "fall of man" is not mentioned in the Bible because it is just that—A FABLE. Man was NEVER a perfect spiritual specimen in the very image of God who then "FELL" from that lofty position. No, man was "naked flesh"—SIN. Man [humankind] was a sinner who when given the opportunity, SINNED.

Let me restate their positions in a nutshell:

Arminians believe that God makes salvation available to all mankind, however, because man's will is free, God knows in advance who will and will not choose to be saved. Those who choose not to be saved will not be saved, and of those who do choose to be saved, even some of them might not be saved. All unsaved will be eternally damned and tortured.

Calvinists believe that God preordains a certain few to be saved. Of these, all will absolutely be saved. Those which have not been preordained to be saved, will all be eternally damned and tortured.

Arminianism suggests that God "offers" salvation to all, but having given man free will, God knows that most can not and will not respond favorably, hence most of humanity will be lost due to the weakness and/or stupidity of God's plan.

Calvinism says that God never even "offered" most of humanity a chance at salvation, thus making God incomprehensibly evil.

Well, there you have it: Christendom in a nutshell. And what an evil and disgusting picture it is!

And here is the unfortunate part of the Good News Gospel of Christendom to the world of humanity:

"FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE HUMAN RACE THERE IS NO ETERNAL HOPE OR SECURITY IN THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST! MOST OF HUMANITY WILL BE DAMNED AND TORTURED IN FIRE FOR ALL ETERNITY AND THERE IS NO LOVE NOR POWER IN HEAVEN OR EARTH THAT WILL PREVENT IT !"

This is, of course, my own personal paraphrase of their gospel, for which I take personal accountability. I am confident that the Church will take appropriate actions against me. God have mercy upon them all.

Here's God's answer to four hundred years of this carnal-minded theological swill:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED" (I Tim.2:4).

AND:

"My counsel shall stand, and I WILL DO ALL My pleasure.

I have spoken it, I WILL also bring it to pass.

I have purposed it, I WILL also do it" (Isaiah 46:10-11).

I have entertained doing a Part E and possibly further. There is much more that could be said regarding the Sovereignty of God verses the fabled free will of man. But why? Most who will see the truth of this subject saw its truth back in Part A, and those who do not as yet see it, won't see it if I continue on to Parts X, Y, and Z. I think it is time to move on. God grant to you the eyes to see and the ears to hear what the Spirit is demonstrating through His marvelous Word.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html

Peace,

Joe

[WhoAmI]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin

==

The kelvin (symbol: K) is a unit increment of temperature and is one of the seven SI base units. The Kelvin scale is a thermodynamic (absolute) temperature scale where absolute zero, the theoretical absence of all thermal energy, is zero (0 K). The Kelvin scale and the kelvin are named after the British physicist and engineer William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin (1824–1907), who wrote of the need for an "absolute thermometric scale".

That was funny! 

[Imabeliever]

Thank you all, for all your help! I guess what it all boils down to is that I just want to be a better witness! Thats the only real way I can open others eyes, ( if its Gods will for me to do so)!  Ultimately I know its all up to the Lord! What about his comment about Jesus dying and going to hell  after he died on the cross?

[winner08]

It would be just a little hard for Jesus to go to hell after He died on the cross. Na's pa? If you mean a place in the earth where satan himself burns an tortures people for every and ever. If you mean hell as in hades or Sheol then yes. Jesus was dead for three days and nights. Be careful when it comes to getting others to see. Make sure you can see first.(clearly). make sure there is nothing impairing your vision. I'm not being smart. It is wonderful thing when you can help others to see the truth. You just have to make sure it is the truth you see.             

                                 Darren

[Imabeliever]

Dont get me wrong , I know he died for the worlds sins, I've always known that! I just dont understand where people get that He went to hell to redeem the rightious dead! this friend of mine doesnt believe he spiritually died too, only physically! I should have been a little clearer!

[Roy Monis]

What's a kevlinist?

Eileen

Hi! Eileen

I thought you'd have known. That's a Kevlenist the one who says that everyone who dies goes straight to heaven or hell and thinks Ray is one and needs Babylonian Bible lessons. That's a Kevlenist, now do you know?

I have a great animation for that but sadly not allowed.

God bless you brother and sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK   

[Roy Monis]

I have a friend that I work with who is a born again christian!  I embrace the fact that we're both believers, but there are many things we dont see eye to eye on, so heres my question. I know only GOD will reveal to a person when HE feels it is time, but what do I say when he calls Ray a kelvenist ? I know its not true but what proof do I give that he is not a kelvenist!  He also believes that when we die, we immediately go to heaven or hell and that JESUS went to hell after HE died, Ive tried to tell him what I've learned here and that these doctrines are unscriptural.  All he says is ,"This L. Ray Smith, would be more believeable if he would have gone to some kind of bible school", but these are the very places that these false doctrines are spread!  God has given me so much hope, love, and joy, through Bible Truths I just want to give the good news to all I can, especially friends and loved ones! Any help or advice would be greatly apppreciated! God Bless!

Hi! Brother Imabeliever

Why not let your friend keep his own happy thoughts and you hold on to yours. It's not your job but God's to drag him, and even after that leave him alone and just direct him to bible-truths or he may make you into a Calvinist.

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK   

[Paul]

What's a kevlinist?

Eileen

Hi! Eileen

I thought you'd have known. That's a Kevlenist the one who says that everyone who dies goes straight to heaven or hell and thinks Ray is one and needs Babylonian Bible lessons. That's a Kevlenist, now do you know?

I have a great animation for that but sadly not allowed.

God bless you brother and sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK

It's Calvinist; and a Calvinist is someone who doesn't believe in free will, but believes in Hell.

Show the guy this and see if the guy still calls Ray a Calvinist:

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D1.htm

[ciy]

Calvinist believe you have no free will up until you are saved.  Then from that point on you do have free will.  And yes they do believe in a very hellacious hell where God predestines most people to be sent to an infinite hell.

CIY