> General Discussions
my friend
Paul:
I'd reccomend you give him the following excerpts from the site:
http://pages.citebite.com/e5m9q4o1gdvx
http://pages.citebite.com/y6n7c2b6tdrd
http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#eonian
Part 2 of the Lake of Fire series:
Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it.
http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html
Point out 1 Timothy 4:10, the only indisputable verse, on the surface, in the entire Bible that proves Universal Salvation (and of course be sure to let him know that Hell doesn't even exist and salvation isn't what he thinks it is.) If he's a KJV-onlyist, make sure you point out Titus 1:10 to prove to him that that specially means especially.
Quote these versions of Mat. 25:46 and ask him how they mean an eternal hell hole of torture:
"And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life." (Scarlett's New Testament)
"And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life." (The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson)
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during." (Young's Literal Translation)
"And these last will go away 'into aeonian punishment,' but the righteous 'into aeonian life.'" (The Twentieth Century New Testament)
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life." (The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton)
"And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life." (Clementson's The New Testament)
"And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life." (Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott)
"And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (The Concordant Literal Version)
"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life." (The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed)
"and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible)
[Credit for those goes to Gary Amirault.]
Point out the inconsistencies with Hell and Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus, and Sheol (see part 16 of the Lake of Fire series.)
Ask him why the proper noun Sheol was split and translated grave 30 times and hell 30 times in the KJV.
Also, this is a good exposé:
http://bible-truths.com/email18.htm#suicide
Brian:
First, I don't believe you need to defend Mr. Smith. I believe he does an excellent job of that already. To answer your question, you might try the Socratic method. That means to ask questions that, if answered honestly, will lead to an enlightened view. Please keep in mind that you should pray that the Spirit will lead him to understanding. (Eph 1:15-18)
Here are a few sample questions to get you started.
If Hell is real and describes a real place, why does the English word "Hell" come from a pagan source instead of the ancient Hebrew writings of the Bible?
(The word "Hell" comes from the Teutonic "Hele" goddess of the underworld "Hell" of northern Europe . The description of this ancient mythological place has very little resemblance anymore to the modern Christian image of Hell. See any Encyclopedia or dictionary for the origin of the word.)
Why is the word "Hell" not found in the Jew's Bible which is the Christian's Old Testament?
(Because the best scholarship demands it.)
Furthermore, the word "Hell" has completely disappeared from the Old Testament Scriptures in most leading Bibles. Why?
(e.g. KJV vs NIV)
If Hell, as a place of everlasting tortures, was the real fate of all mankind unless they did something here on earth to prevent it, why didn't God make that warning plain right at the beginning of the Bible?
(God said the penalty for eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was DEATH. He did NOT define death as eternal life being forever tortured in burning fire and brimstone.)
If Hell was real why didn't Moses warn about this fate in the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Covenant consisting of over 600 laws, ordinances, and warnings?
(The Mosaic Law simply stated blessings and cursings IN THIS LIFETIME for failure to keep the Mosaic Law.)
If Hell is real and it is a place of eternally being separated from God, why does David say in the King James Bible, "Though I make my bed in Hell (Sheol) lo, Thou art there?
(Again please note, most Christian Bibles NO LONGER have the word "Hell" in the Old Testament. The KJV written over 400 years ago is an exception. The Jews do NOT put the word "Hell" in their English translations of the Hebrew Scriptures, that is, the Old Testament and the leading English Christian Bibles have removed it because it is NOT in the original language. Most Christian scholars now acknowledge it should never have been placed there in the first place.)
If Hell is real and if good people go to heaven and bad people go to Hell, why does EVERYONE, good or bad, go to the same place in the Old Testament? They ALL go to Sheol which the King James Version translated "Hell" 31 times, "grave" 31 times and "pit" three times? Are we all destined to go to Hell or did the King's translators make some gross translation errors?
If Hell is real, why don't the Jews, many who know the Old Testament better than most Christians, not believe in the modern Christian concept of Hell? They say they don't believe it because it is not in their Scriptures. Most scholars today can not find Hell in the Old Testament. Most leading Bible translations no longer contain the word Hell in the entire Old Testament. (Genesis through Malachi.)
If Hell doesn't exist in the Old Testament, how could Jesus and his disciples teach that salvation was deliverance from a place that is not even found in their Scriptures? (There was only the Old Testament at that time.) Would that not make Him appear like a false teacher? Or could it be that Jesus never taught such a concept in the first place? Could it be that this concept has been added to the church and SOME Bibles through "traditions of men?"
If Hell is real, since SOME English translations use the word Hell for the Greek word "Gehenna," in the New Testament, why didn't this same place (Gehenna) get translated Hell in the many places where it appears in the Hebrew form "ga Ben Hinnom" in the Old Testament? If the Jews did not understand this valley as a symbol of everlasting torture, why do SOME English translations give this word such a meaning? And who burned who in this valley? And what was God's response for Israel doing such a horrible thing to their children? (Jer. 32:33-35) And how could God say "such a thing never entered His mind" if in fact He is going to do the very same thing to most of His own children?
If Hell was real, why did the early church appoint an avowed universalist as the President of the second council of the church in Constantinople in the fourth century? (Gregory Nazianzen, 325-381)
If Hell was real, why did Church leaders as late as the fourth century AD acknowledge that the majority of Christians believed in the salvation of all mankind?
(Universalism--The Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years by Dr. J.W. Hanson)
I think you get the point of the questions. One question leads, if honestly answered, to another that leads to Blessing in the Christ. I think that a person whose mental faculties, conscience and heart are still working will come to the reasonable conclusion that the concept of Hell as a place of everlasting punishment leaves a LOT of questions unanswered. Yes, the concept of Hell (and that is all it is, a false concept) seems to violate everything that is reasonable. It violates the nature of God which is unconditional Love. It violates the wisdom of God, the pleasure of God, the promises of God, the oath of God, the power of God; it negates the full power of the cross of the Christ; it goes against the testimony of the prophets; it violates the testimony of Jesus Christ and His apostles; it violates the Scriptures in their original languages; it violates the writings of the early church leaders who read the Scriptures in the original languages; it goes against our conscience and our hearts. Finally, it has the ring of something the subtlest of all creatures would concoct…the greatest lie ever told.
I really hope and pray that your friend will have the eyes of his heart enlightened.
Have a happy and be sage.
Brian :)
Heidi:
Dear Brian...thank you for taking the time to post this....it has been most enlightening....you have given me some food for thought, as I am sure that a lot of us deal with these type of questions asked of us....now we can put the ball in their court for a change ;)
Love in Christ
Heidi
PS What does ....and be sage mean??
joyful1:
--- Quote from: Paul on July 21, 2008, 10:24:08 PM ---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin
==
The kelvin (symbol: K) is a unit increment of temperature and is one of the seven SI base units. The Kelvin scale is a thermodynamic (absolute) temperature scale where absolute zero, the theoretical absence of all thermal energy, is zero (0 K). The Kelvin scale and the kelvin are named after the British physicist and engineer William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin (1824–1907), who wrote of the need for an “absolute thermometric scale”.
--- End quote ---
Paul-- Ray is pretty "hot" tempered sometimes....but I wouldn't go so far as to call him a "kelvinist!" Besides.....he even admits that he has NO DEGREES! ;D
Brian-- good questions! :D
Paul:
Those versions of Mat. 25:46 (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7742.msg61621.html#msg61621) really shine a lot of light on God's punishment, don't they?
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