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What do these 2 verses mean?

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mharrell08:
Hello All:

I recently emailed Ray a question about the following 2 scriptures that I had trouble understanding. He has tons of emails to answer so I was wondering if anyone here could help. I will copy & paste my message in blue:


Hello Ray,

First off, thank you for the wonderful site. I have been reading your papers for a year & a half and feel extremely blessed. I am so grateful for the wonderful truths that God has showed me through His Word and your website.

My question about the above scriptures is: What do they mean?

Matt. 11:12  And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Luke 16:16  The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Now I realize that 'and every man presseth into it' is considered spurrious but it is the only other time that the Greek word for violent (biazo G971) is used. I just ran across this translation from the Amplified Bible:

Luke 16:16  Until John came, there were the Law and the Prophets; since then the good news (the Gospel) of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone strives violently to go in [would force his [a]own way rather than God's way into it].

I see that it is saying 'since John the Baptist until now' this violence occurs. As I also remember from your LOF series & 12 Spiritual Truths papers that His words are spirit. I just needed help understanding what this means.


Thanks for any assistance you all can provide.


Marques

Brian:
Many have wondered what he meant by that. Mark 2:1-5 is a beautiful commentary on Matthew 11:12
God is simply saying, "Look, I'm ready to give to those who really want something." If you really want it, then God will give it, even though it is an interruption of the program he had in mind. So these men came -- violently -- ready to take what they knew God was offering at that moment and, in a sense, they took it by force.

What is underscored here, of course, is the quality of faith. This is what faith is all about. There are three remarkable and beautiful aspects of it here:

First, these men dared to do the difficult. That is where faith always manifests itself. It was not easy to bring this man to the Lord. They had to carry him, who knows how far, through the streets of the city -- perhaps many blocks. And when they found the doorway blocked, they had to carry him up an outside stairway to the roof. We do not know how heavy he was, but it is not easy to carry a full grown man up a flight of stairs. Yet these men managed this difficult task. They dared to do the difficult. What an illustration this incident gives us of bringing people to Christ!

Then, notice that they dared to do the unorthodox. They were not limited by the fact that it was not at all customary to break up a roof. When they found that the door was blocked, they did not sit down, as we probably would have done, and appoint a committee to research the various ways to get to Jesus. No, they just did what was necessary, and risked the disapproval not only of the owner of the house but also every person there by interrupting the meeting in order to get their friend to Jesus. The remarkable thing is that Jesus never rebuked them, never criticized their interruption. He never does. There is never an incident recorded in which Jesus got uptight or disturbed about an interruption by someone intent on receiving something from him and pressing through to him despite the disapproval of those around. These men dared to do the unorthodox.

I love that quality in Christianity. I hope we never lose it -- this ability to defy the status quo. Nothing is more deadly in a church than the attitude -- which can so easily set in -- which has been expressed as, "Come weal or woe; our status is quo" because the members are afraid to do anything which might be criticized. But these men dared to do the unorthodox.

Third, they dared to do the costly. Somebody had to pay for that roof. Imagine the face of the owner, sitting there at the feet of Jesus, when he hears this scratching on the roof. He looks up and, to his amazement, the tiles begin to move. Then daylight appears, and suddenly he has a large hole in his roof! I do not know what his thoughts were. He probably wondered if his Homeowners Policy would cover it or not. Or maybe he was mentally adding up the bill to present to these men. But somebody had to pay that bill, somebody repaired that roof, and surely it was one, if not all, of these men. They dared to do the costly. That is faith! They laid it on the line -- at cost to themselves. What a witness this is to what it takes to bring people to Christ!

Have a happy and be sage
Brian

mharrell08:
Hello Brian,

Thank you for you response. I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but I do not believe Mark 2:1-5 is a 'spiritual match' to the 2 verses I am inquiring about. I don't want to use this thread to explain in detail so I recommend reading or re-reading if you've read it before, Ray's paper on 12 spiritual truths to understanding God's Word: http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm. Looking at truths 6 & 7 especially.

Jesus stated this 'violent take it by force' & 'men presseth into it' happened after John the Baptist until now. The 'now' I believe is during Christ's ministry. The men tearing through the roof was during Christ's ministry not before. I could be wrong so hopefully others can further assist. But thank you again for your response.


Thanks,

Marques

hillsbororiver:
Hi Marques,

I don't believe Christ was only speaking to those standing near Him the moment He was uttering those Words, we must remember His Words are for all believers through the age the Gospels are for us as well as those who lived in the 1st century.

What I see here is the entire history of the church age and not just the overt violence perpetrated by the popes but that men have usurped authority reserved for God, supplanted His Word with their own words.

Here are some verses I think may match what the message Jesus spoke;

Joh 5:43  I am come in my Father's name and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
 
Joh 5:44  How can ye believe, which receive honor one of another and seek not the honor that cometh from God only?
 
Co 4:8  Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.

You know threatening people with an eternity of a hellhole of fiery torture could also be considered a violent act, it is even worse than threatening to shoot or stab someone who refuses to hand over his cash.

Just my thoughts here.

Peace,

Joe

mharrell08:
Thanks Joe...I think we are on the same page. When I said during Christ ministry, I didn't mean only during Christ time in flesh & blood here on earth. I meant through all the continuing generations including the present after he made this statement. I know from reading Ray's LOF series, Christ ministry is in us now as it was with the apostles back in the early AD.

But I don't understand the presseth into or take it by force. I don't believe it is any way literal violence so I'm trying to find what it means spiritually.

Jesus also said 'the kingdom of heaven' suffereth violence and/or men presseth into it. Those 2 phrases come from the same Greek word which means to use force. If the kingdom of heaven is US how are men forcing or pressing INTO it?


Thanks

Marques

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