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[mharrell08]

Hi Linny, I hope not to offend, please believe me when I say this.

  I beleive Job did no wrong according to the first verse in Job which says;

 Job 1:1 There was a man in the country of Uz. Job was his name. And this man was flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil.

  And this;

  Job 1:8 So Yahweh said to Satan, Have you set your heart on My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a man flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and withdrawing from evil.

  It was God who caused Satan to do this to Job

  Job 1:12 Hence Yahweh said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your hand, but you must not put forth your hand upon himself. Then Satan went forth from Yahweh's presence.

  Even after God did this to Job's family Job said this;

  Job 1:21 And he said, Naked I came forth from the belly of my mother, and naked I shall return there. Yahweh, He gives, and Yahweh, He takes away. Blessed be the name of Yahweh.

  Job 1:22 In all this, Job neither sinned nor ascribed anything improper to Elohim.

  It seems Job said this after God did this to him;

  Job 3:25  For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me

  I mean who wouldnt be fearful after all that? Isnt it God Who inspires fear? All and any fear? Isnt fear part of evil, which God created? Seems Job was fearful of God as we all should be. I dont think it was the evil kind of fear Job had though.


  Exo 34:10 Then He said: Behold, I am contracting a covenant; in front of all your people shall I do marvels which have not been created on the entire earth, or among any of the nations. So all the people among whom you are will see the handiwork of Yahweh, for fear inspiring is that which I am doing with you.

  I believe here is why evil happens to us, according to Job;

  Job 5:7 But humanity is born to misery, Even as sparks of burning coal shoot aloft to fly.
Job 5:8 Howbeit, as for me, I inquire of El, And before Elohim do I place my cause,

  Even after all this God blessed Job even more than before. Because Job endured and was always patient. Just like God will do for us if we endure and be patient even when we suffer. Job is one of the best examples on how to endure trials.

  I agree evil fear needs to be repented of, I simply cannot choose to be fearless. I have to ask God to grant me courage, and to remove the fear. There is also a healthy fear of which Job had for God. Maybe Im wrong, and prepared to be corrected. Im always willing to learn

         Your Friend in Christ, George D.

 

Excellent point, George. I totally agree with your statement 'I simply cannot choose to be fearless'. That shows a knowledge of not only knowing you have no free will, but living in that knowledge as well. Similar to 'knowing Christ' compared to Christ in you and you in him.

Too often, we know these truths such as 'no free will' but we don't live our lives in that knowledge.


Thanks,

Marques

[Linny]

No offense taken. However, allow me to explain further as I think you misunderstood me.

I do NOTHING without the power of God working within me. When fear comes upon me, I choose to fight it with all I have within me. I am not talking about my personal inner strength here. I am speaking of the prayerful use of Scripture and lots of prayer. I DO ask God to grant me courage and take away my fear. This is why it leaves me. Not through my power or will but through His. I believe He answers my prayer because it is His will that I not walk in fear.

So, this is not about my free will, it is about making choices to either sin or not to sin.

About Job, I know that Job was an upright man. It is not my intention to harshly criticize Job.
In the KJV, he is called perfect:

H8535
תּם
tâm
tawm
From H8552; complete; usually (morally) pious; specifically gentle, dear: -  coupled together, perfect, plain, undefiled, upright.

However, I think people tend to take this too far. You said that Job did no wrong. Only Jesus Christ walked a perfect life. Job did not. He was a man and the Scripture tells us that all men fall short and it also said that all he feared came upon him. Since I know from 365 other Scriptures that we are commanded NOT to fear, then Job, although upright and moral, was not perfect because none of us are.

Hopefully I did not offend either. We may certainly disagree on this point.
 

[winner08]

I always thought that God gave permission for Satan to do anything he wanted to Job except kill him. To prove Job love God more than anything or anyone. God told Satan that no matter what he did to Job,he would not curse Him. I don't know for sure but I don't think Job did anything to God in order that God had to punish him.  Which leads me to a question that has bother me for a long time. Why would God do this to Job? What purpose did He have by putting Job through this? God created evil, God created Satan and Satan had to get permission  from God before touching  him.(Job) What was the purpose for this suffering?

                                               Darren

[jakfr0s]

  I totally agree with you that all have sinned. I would be foolish to think otherwise. But I also believe that God can bring us to a point where sin no longer has dominion in our lives. I believe this is where Job was in his life. Im sure Job willingly sinned before God changed him. But it seems that Scripture is telling us of a time when Job no longer willingly sinned. I truly believe the Scriptures when they say

  Job 1:1  A man there hath been in the land of Uz--Job his name--and that man hath been perfect and upright--both fearing God, and turning aside from evil.

  Even after God did this to Job's family, which Job knew it was God, the Scriptures say this

  Job 1:22  In all this Job hath not sinned, nor given folly to God.

  After all that God caused Satan to give Job painful boils. We can see Who Job is fearful of.

  Job 6:4  For the arrows of the Almighty are within me; their fury is drinking my spirit; the terrors of God are set against me.

  I agree the Scriptures say many times not to fear, but they also say to fear God. Is this a contradiction? Or maybe a two different kinds of fear? Two different translations of fear?

  Do you really believe Job was fearful of anything besides God?  If the Scriptures say he was perfect and flawless and without sin at this time in his life, there could be only one thing he could be possibly afraid of, and that would be God. If he feared anything else during this time in his life wouldnt that be sin? When Im fearful of my kids getting hurt, im saying I dont trust God, and that is a sin. I must repent of that. And trust that no matter what happens to my kids good or bad it wasnt in my control, but in Gods control. God's will is perfect no matter what happens to my kids. Thats not to say it wouldnt hurt. If I curse Him for hurting my kids that would be a sin, but if I thank Him for the trial, and do nothing but praise Him like Job then I can be blessed and receive a even more than I had before.

  You said " how many times do people get what they fear?" I personally dont believe there is anything I can do that would cause God to either curse me or bless me.

  Joh 15:5 I am the Grapevine. You are the branches. He who is remaining in Me, and I in him, this one is bringing forth much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

  I never once said that you Linny believed in free will. You said, "when we choose NOT to fear." If I misunderstood you, please I humbly ask for your forgivness.

  As for everything else I think I will believe in the Scriptures. Please no offense intended.

         Your Friend in Christ, George D.

[Linny]

Darren, I have that very same question! 
I lost my mentor suddenly 4 years ago. She was the most loved woman I've ever known and her ministry (outside the church) was huge. She was the healthiest person I've ever known as well and took better care of herself than anyone I know. Yet, at 61, she dropped dead. Many of us were crushed by the loss and none of us can fathom why God would take her. I was angry with God for a long time. Then I did as she taught me and I released her and the need to know why.
I often think this is what I have to do where Job is concerned.

George, you asked, "Do you really believe Job was fearful of anything besides God?" That's a great question.
Since we know everything he feared came upon him, we know that he feared losing his family, losing his wealth, and losing his health. If he only feared God then he feared that God would take these things from him? I don't have that kind of fear of God. I don't understand that kind of fear of my Heavenly Father so I can't say that it is a healthy, sinless fear.


I would have to do some more study to Scripturally answer this.
"I personally don't believe there is anything I can do that would cause God to either curse me or bless me. "
But this is what I found quickly...

Deu 11:25  No one shall be able to stand against you. The LORD your God will lay the fear of you and the dread of you on all the land that you shall tread, as he promised you.
Deu 11:26  "See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse:
Deu 11:27  the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you today,
Deu 11:28  and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside from the way that I am commanding you today, to go after other gods that you have not known. "

And...
Gen 27:12  "Perhaps my father will feel me, and I shall seem to be mocking him and bring a curse upon myself and not a blessing."

It doesn't set right in my Spirit to think God would ever "curse" me. He is my Dad and as a parent I would never curse my children. I am certainly not even close to having the kind of love God has.
I know that my trials bring me closer to being more like Him, but I don't consider my trials a curse but a blessing. Because when I come out of them, I come out stronger.

Again, all my oh, so humble opinion from my reading of the Scriptures...
 

In Love,
Linny

[ez2u]

Job had reach a place of perfect in where he was.  Line upon line precept upon precept.  He had every thing a man could want in this world?  wealth, land, family, respect, and Godliness.  God began to do a deeper work in him and took all that away from him.  It was a letting go of the earthly things.  It was a death. What was the results of that?

Job 42:2  I know that Thou canst do every thing, and that no purpose can be withholden from Thee.
Job 42:3  Who is this that hideth counsel without knowledge? Therefore have I uttered that which I understood not, things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
Job 42:4  Hear, I beseech Thee, and I will speak; I will demand of Thee, and declare Thou unto me.
Job 42:5  I had heard of Thee by the hearing of the ear; but now mine eye seeth Thee;
Job 42:6  Wherefore I abhor my words, and repent, seeing I am dust and ashes.

and what did Job do after that?

Job 42:13  He had also seven sons and three daughters.
Job 42:14  And he called the name of the first, Jemimah; and the name of the second, Keziah; and the name of the third, Keren-happuch.
Job 42:15  And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job; and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.
 
he gave his daughter the same equal rights as his sons.  Land inheritance.  It was unheard of at that time.  With land inheritance came authority.

I do not know  if Jesus was a sickly man.  This is too hard for my understanding at this time.  He did bear our infirmaties.
By the power of the HOly Spirit was he able to overcome them?  I don't see how  he could of carried the whole world sickness and not be dead.  There is something more here.  The scriptures do say in the heavenly there will be no more sickness.  Is that a clue?  Peggy

one more thing   a few years back i had a girlfriend,  she was more like a mother figure to me,  we were very close.  She started dying of lymphoma cancer.  Knots started appearing  on her body like tumors.  knotts started appearing on my body as well.  Never happen to me since.  I showed her the knots and she told me to cut it out.  That i could not carry her sickness and i had to let her go she was dying.  It was a different time.  I let her go and the knots left me.  This really did happen.  I love her very much

[knuckle]

Hi All---------

In whom did Job believe his righteousness abided?We read God's response to Job.

Job 40:1  Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
Job 40:2  Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
Job 40:3  Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
Job 40:4  Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Job 40:5  Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.
Job 40:6  Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 40:7  Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 40:8  Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Note Jobs words when face to face with the Almighty where before......

 Job 27:1  Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,
Job 27:2  As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul;
Job 27:3  All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;
Job 27:4  My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit.
Job 27:5  God forbid that I should justify you: till I die I will not remove mine integrity from me.
Job 27:6  My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

My righteousness?my integrity?---filthy rags all -- Elihu the true fiend points this out in chapter 34

much love-----------knuckle

[jakfr0s]

  Hi Darren, you ask what the purpose was for Job's suffering? Personally I think it was in part to show us how its done. How to suffer rightgeously. Just like Jesus taught us how to live and die rightgeously. Also to show us what we can expect when we are faithful to Him no matter what happens. We will have our reward after all is said an done, as long as we are faithful Him. I hope this helps.

  Linny, no where does it say in Job that he was afraid of losing his family or his possesions, or wealth or his health. All he said was, that which he feared the most has come upon him. I believe that it was God that he feared the most. I think that if we are living a godly life then there is nothing to fear but God. If you cant see it written plainly, I cant make you see it. I also want you to know this is nothing personal, Im not trying to be right for the sake of being right. I only do this for sake of the Truth as it is written plainly.

          Your Friend in Christ, George D.

 P.S. This is my last post on this subject, and it has been a huge blessing. 

[winner08]

Thanks George D. I can see clearly now. I use to think God let Satan do this to Job in order to show him how good of a servant of the Lord he was. Now I see It was a lesson for us. Never give up or doubt in the Lord.

                                       Darren

[Brian]

Was Jesus Ever Sick?

The Bible does not tell us. So why not leave it as it is. Getting a cold doesn't come from sin. It comes from germs.

The Holy Scriptures are becoming clearer and plainer all the time. This is precisely what God prophesied would happen as we approach the End of the Age. That time is just on the horizon.

In the meantime, we should dispense the real Gospel of Jesus Christ to this world. Believe me, there is very little of the basic substance of the Gospel being taught today. What we see in this world is a watered-down version of the Gospel that is given to please and to amuse (in a frivolous sense) the sentiments of humankind. We are provided with wonderful and often spectacular "church services," but there is very little teaching of the fundamentals of the Scripture.

[mharrell08]

George,

This is taken from the transcript of the Nashville Conference 2007, under the title "Who and What Is Jesus?"

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

Luke 4:22 …And they said, "Is not this Joseph's Son?"
v. 23  And He said to them, "Doubtless you will quote to Me this proverb, 'Physician, heal Yourself.’

Did you get that?  Doubtless He said, your going to say that to Me.  Why?  He healed people, right?  But He was sick and diseased!  So your going to say to Me, well if you’re the great Physician and You're healing all these people, surely you're going to say to Me,  “Physician, heal Yourself.”
Christ had a burden to bare.  He was nothing to look at though, sickly and diseased, “a tender shoot out of dry ground” (Isa 53:2), sick, diseased with infirmaries.

Now it says in Isa 53:3, “He is despised and rejected by others, a Man of suffering (Heb.-pain).”  Because when we say suffering, right away we think of some spiritual thing.  You know He suffered persecution and things of that nature.  It’s still suffering, but the word is pain.  Why was He in pain?  Because He had infirmaries.  Is this a different Jesus than you have been thinking about? 

Isa 53:3 “...and as One from whom men hide their faces…”  that’s not what it says in the Hebrew, it should say  “As One who hides His face,”   Imagine the Son of God,  Creator of the universe and in a body that’s uncomely, diseased, infirmaries and pain.  It’s like when you go through a crowd, you don’t want to call attention to yourself, because there’s nothing here to see, you know. 

Isa 53:3 “… He was despised, and we held Him of no account.  V. 4 ….. and carried our diseases;” 
Do you understand where this says He was tempted in all ways as we, yet without sin (Heb 4:15).  And we think once in a while a pretty girl passed Him, He had to say, well I’ll look the other way.  No!  This is a whole lot more real than that. 
He carried our diseases, oh.  They will say, no He went to the cross for our diseases.  No, He carried them in His body.  And now is where they say, God just really beat the living day lights out of Him?  That we count Him stricken down and afflicted?  Who would say that?!  It says WE.  It doesn’t say God struck Him down. That is blaspheme.  WE accounted Him stricken down and afflicted, we that’s a people.  When they saw Him, they said 'this Man is being cursed of God, look at the pathetic thing.  God is cursing this man bad, I wonder what He did wrong.'  And then He would heal the people. 
I mean it wasn’t the first time where He said, I know your all looking at Me saying, “heal Yourself Physician.”  That must have come up many times, you know.  It’s not in the Bible though it says;

John 21:25  Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

I mean how many hundreds of times did someone say, Lord you’ve healed me, I’m whole, why doesn’t God heal You?  He would say that’s not My job to be healed and walk around whole and handsome, fortified and all that.  He came to carry your diseases.  I heal you, but I carry them in My body.  WE account Him stricken down by God and afflicted, because that’s what you would conclude and that’s what people would look at. 

Hope this helps.

René

Brian,

The scriptures do tell us whether Jesus was sick or not. Here is a great post from Rene from this very thread that covers that subject.

Also, what prophecy are you referring to that states 'the scriptures are becoming clearer and plainer all the time'? 1 Cor. 13:8 states that knowledge will 'vanish away'.


Thanks,

Marques

[AK4]

Wow, Brian, that was a great rebuttal.  I didnt put much thought into the paper by Ray (i was more interested in something else), but you have sparked my interest to study up on that.  You did exactly what Ray tells everyone to do and that is to "not to just take his word for it, check the scriptures yourself".

Im not saying right now you or Ray is right, that is not my place but i will study this too and hopefully God will open up my eyes to see what is Truth.

Has anyone showed this rebuttal to Ray, it would be interesting to see his rebuttal?

Anthony

[winner08]

If you read Isa53:3 He is speaking of Jesus. The first word is He, the H is capital and it says He is despised. I look up the word despised on e-sword.It says (baw-zaw) to disesteem, despise, disdain, contemp, scorn and vile person.  Rejected(khaw-dale) vacant, frail,destitute ceasing. A man with sorrows,(anguish, affliction,grief, pain. Acquainted( to know). With Grief(malady, anxiety,calamity and diseased). Reading the text with these knew found words it take on a clear understanding of Jesus. What do y'all think?

                              Darren

[hillsbororiver]

What is pleasing to the natural man, health, wealth, worldly wisdom and status are nothing to God. Jesus as a man did not possess the things the world desires, Satan offered it all to Jesus who promptly rejected it and commanded Satan to depart.

The sacrifice that Jesus made was the fulfillment of the animal sacrifices, the spotless animals were a type/shadow of the spiritual spotlessness, the perfection that is Christ, what the animals foreshadowed in physical perfection Christ fulfilled in spiritual perfection.

Jesus did not sacrifice a perfect physical body, He sacrificed a perfect spiritual heart.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

If you read Isa53:3 He is speaking of Jesus. The first word is He, the H is capital and it says He is despised. I look up the word despised on e-sword.It says (baw-zaw) to disesteem, despise, disdain, contemp, scorn and vile person.  Rejected(khaw-dale) vacant, frail,destitute ceasing. A man with sorrows,(anguish, affliction,grief, pain. Acquainted( to know). With Grief(malady, anxiety,calamity and diseased). Reading the text with these knew found words it take on a clear understanding of Jesus. What do y'all think?

                              Darren

Excellent points Darren!

Peace,

Joe

[AK4]

I dont know if anyone read the post by Brian that got moved but i think its both, he was in pain, sickness, and afflicted physically, and also spotless without blemish, spiritually, a worthy sacrifice to God.  reference Malachi 1

Brian i guess that was mainly for you.  Look at it like this----

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Maybe physically he was what is stated in Isa 53,  but we all know spiritually He was spotless.

Tell me what you think, Brain

If i crossed the line with this post Kat or any of the Mods im sorry it wont happen again

In Jesus

Anthony

[AK4]

ahh you beat me to it Joe

[winner08]

Thanks Joe: I was quite hastaint to post that thread. After being on Bible-Truth and reading Ray's teachings I realize that some of these words have a different meaning from what i think the meaning of a word is (in English). For instints the word sorrows I know what it means to me in my brain but in the original text it means something a little different. (sorrows- anguish,, affliction, grief, pain). Affliction and pain is what made a big difference in that verse>Isa 53:3. I like to know as much info as possible on any given subject.

                                 Darren

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Anthony,

I am sure you will return the favor soon! 

Hey Darren,

That should be what all of us are doing, seeking His Wisdom, searching all matters pertaining to our Lord and our salvation. I will never forget the intensity of that moment at the Conference when Ray brought forth the painful, lonely and isolated life of Christ, He didn't only suffer for those few days leading up to His crucifixion.

In the life He led will there will be no room for any man to say or think, Christ had it easier than me.

Heb 4:15  For we have not a high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities;769 but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
 
Heb 4:16  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

G769
ἀσθένεια
astheneia
as-then'-i-ah
From G772; feebleness (of body or mind); by implication malady; moral frailty: - disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[JeffH]

We thank God for teaching us not to fear and for giving us the faith needed to walk through these trials in victory! We ask and believe for what we need and we get it. God is faithful!

Wow, Linny.  Something about your statement hit me just now like a ton of bricks.  I can't describe it as a thought because it was more or less a sensation of power.  I'd like that to happen more often in my life.

I don't do it on a conscious level most of the time, but when I think about it intentionally, I know in my heart that fear is the predominant emotion in me almost every day.  It sucks the life right out of you.  In my head I know that God has me on a path, but I wonder if I don't fear what He's got planned for me.  That I can "know" of God's utter Supremacy and still react as though I don't is kinda scary.  Don't like that one bit. 

See, I just did it again - used the word scary. I gotta quit it.