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Pagan Christianity
AK4:
Kat.
In my heart i knew you guys were right, Dave and Brenda too. The more i replied to you guys post the more truth you guys kept showing me on the matter until all the scales were shead off. I just wanted to make sure i present my argument as thorough as possible so i could get clear understanding. And thanks be to Jesus he used you guys to show me the truth.
Thanks again
Anthony
Dave in Tenn:
Anthony. This is over my paygrade, so all I can do is the best I can.
As far as I know, Jesus never gave a commandment concerning pagan holidays. His ministry was mainly to Jews following (to greater or lesser extent) the laws of moses and the leviticial laws, and their own religious 'tradtion' laws as well, etc. Those he encountered who were NOT jews He always compared to Jews (and favorably). The ones who kept these laws BEST (the Scribes and Pharisees) were the ones who Christ found to be the WORST.
Concerning Christ's commandments, let's stick with the weekly Sabbath and hopefully other parellels can be drawn. He Himself was accused of breaking this Law by doing forbidden work on this day. Did he sin? Of course not. Did He break 'THEIR' Sabbath? Absolutely. But He didn't break God's Spiritual Sabbath. In his explanation to the Pharisees, it might be said that He not only broke their Sabbath but He smashed it it to bits. It might also be said that He pointed the way toward the True meaning of the Sabbath and didn't end it at all, rather extended it from one day a week full of 'Thou shalt nots...' into seven days a week full of 'Thou Shalts...'
That sounds great, but neither the OLD Sabbath or the NEW Sabbath can be kept in the flesh. Christ prophecied a day when His Spirit would be living in us and He accomplished this (among a universe of other things) by His death and resurrection. Now, we are to die to ourselves and be raised in Him. It's no longer us living, but Christ. Even this can't be accomplished by our flesh.
If Christ is living in us (more and more and more, as I believe) then Christ is able to do all the things that He is....love, holiness, peace, joy. I am fully persuaded that I cannot do these things. I have evidence from my OWN life and don't even NEED scripture to know that I am not capable of any unsullied good work and AM capable of the worst sin imagineable. Whatever good there is in me, IS Christ's spirit by definition. I have to die more and more and more (as I understand it) so He might live. And He knows the true and righteous and profitable meaning behind ALL the shadows of law and prophecy. And He is teaching the spiritual, true meaning and will continue to teach it to us.
The Law of the Spirit is not a set of regulations. The Kingdom of God is the kingship of God.
I know you didn't want to hear more about holy days, but as Kat said, it's not the physical we should be concerend with, it's the Spiritual. That IS the commandments of Christ.
As for Pagan influence in Christian holidays, in the times of the Apostles when the scriptures were being written they were struggling with this too. Now the Gosepl was open to those beyond the Jewish tradition and outside of the enclave of Jersusalem and environs. Greeks, Asians, Romans, Africans and all kinds of people were coming to believe. They brought their own 'traditions' that clashed with the Jews. They ate unclean meat, they had their own false prophets among them, they had a way of thinking that didn't include the centuries of exposure to and teaching of the Jews and the Old Testament. That sounds familiar, doesn't it?
Again, I'm over my paygrade here, but it seems to me that Rom.14, your references in Collosians, Kat's and Brenda's all are dealing with this. In dealing with it, they are also all pointing to a Higher Law. There is more than one 'commandment' flowing through this vein in the New Testament. Some seem aimed at the 'pagan tradition' believers (primarily, DON'T SIN), some seem aimed at the 'jewish tradition' believers (primarily DON'T Judge what isn't sin or peole who aren't sinning). Both 'groups' are under both of those commandments...we are One. In a sense it's been like OUR discussion...different traditions reaching for a common and higher Truth.
Now we're stuck with Christmas and the like, a holiday celebrated by Christians, and those without Christ as well...both sinners and Heathens. Heathens? Absolutely. I've been in Buddhist countries that celebrate Christmas when most of them couldn't tell you the difference between Santa and Christ. That's how far Christendom has come.
But really, we can scratch those distinctions. God's 'distinction' in his house is between the Elect and Spiritually Minded and the Called and carnally minded. As far as I'm concerened, the carnally minded can celebrate Christmas all they want. At least it's one day a year that they might have a thought for the coming of Christ into the world. If I am invited, I'd go because none of that stuff has any power over me. I don't like Chritmas either, and it has nothing to do with 'paganism'. It has to do with commercialism and 'enforced' good spirits. I like to feel good when God wants me to feel good. I want to remember the coming of Christ every day, and ultimately have no need to remember because He is in and with me every day.
If others can turn this holiday on its head and make it worth celebrating as a special day--with or without tress, mistletoe and all those other powerless trinkets--then I'm committed to not judging them for what isn't a sin. I don't believe it's a sin any more than Samson mentioned calling today Wednesday is a sin.
If others can teach the church without sin, then more power to them and God's blessings. If I had oppurtunity and ability, I'd rather use the 'IN' that christmas gives and preach Christ to the heathens.
The Spirit of Christ is love and other things that flow out of love. If your love is a concernd warning, then give it. If it's a bit of fellowship with loved ones in the midst of dead and powerless trinkets, then do it. You'd walk over glass for them, I believe you can walk under mistletoe.
What you yourself do is according to your faith, concience, and Doctrine. As we put all of that under the Law of the Spirit and the Kingship of God it is up to HIM to lead us. The Head leads, not the hand or the foot.
I've already identified myself on this board as an a@@, and a dumb one as well. So for the love of God, don't do what I say.
Roy Monis:
Hi! Anthony and all.
My first impression is that this is a lure to buy the books and other junk. They don't give any idea of what the contents of the books are, which makes me wonder whether it is worth my while pouring my money down the drain Why not let Benny Hinn have it instead he needs it to build another mansion for his big brother JESUS when He decides ro show up. It appears as though this site is just another of those promotions for another form of belief. Unlike Bible-Truths which gives you everything for free including membership try and get the same from Frank Viola and he'll tell you what you can do in no uncertain terms.
That's the difference between money grabbing and an honest freewill offering. Best to stick where you are and give your money if you have a surplus above your needs to Ray from whom you are getting the TRUTH for the first time in YOUR LIFE? Don't you think he deserves it for all the obvious hard work he has put into it for our benefit, more than those charlatans?
Come on now leave them alone and be right, we have God's truly inspired servant we don't need anymore misfits or we may as well go back to Egypt/Babylon.
It's time to drop this thread as it just doesn't belong here.
God bless you brothers and sisters in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
Brian:
Roy UK,
It was not my intention to lure anyone into buying a book or other junk. Nor did I intend to start a thread concerning Christian liberty. One does not need to purchase a book in order to read it. I am sure, as adults, we are familiar with the public library system! Is one not available in the UK?
I simply asked if anyone had read the book and gave an opinion about the book. The book in question has useful information for those who want to know more about "church" history and where it got certain practices from.
These well documented facts can show those who are still in Babylon that they are, in fact, still in Babylon. As far as Mr. Viola telling us what we can do in no uncertain terms I have no knowledge of.
Why the apparent animosity toward Frank Viola? Did you ask him to send you a book?
Do you get paid to do a job? What if you didn't get paid, would you still do the job or would you find some other way to feed your family?
The reason that money is charged for the purchase of a book is that it cost money to produce a book. And yes, the Author(s), publisher, printers and others get a small part of the purchase price.
I am sure Larry Ray Smith doesn't begrudge anyone for charging for there time or work.
Larry Ray Smith has chosen to do this for free. I'm quite certain he has been led to do this. I am also certain he did not do his carpentry job for free or on the basis of donations. Nor did he start BT on the basis of donations. He started and funded it with his wages. I think also the wages of a few others too. ( I'm not entirely clear on this part though).
If one wishes to give toward the efforts of Larry Ray Smith, then by all means give. I know he will truly appreciate it.
Please explain why you think this thread has no place here. Even though it was not my intention to start a thread about Christian liberty it was none the less discussed. God used it to speak to AK4 and I'm not sure how many others.
Love in Christ
B
AK4:
Hi
Yes Brian is right God was using them to help open my eyes.
--- Quote ---These well documented facts can show those who are still in Babylon that they are, in fact, still in Babylon
--- End quote ---
I Couldnt have said it better. Some people who has read some of Rays papers shouldnt just take his word for it. they need to found out if he's telling the truth or not--on scripture and on pagan things.
Roy i think as long as we are all talking about the Lord, every bit conversation is ok as long as we are staying in like mind, keeping an open mind for the truth, and helping each other in the Word. And i know you believe that too. Yes it can be taken too far but i dont think it has reached that yet in this thread.
Peace
Anthony
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