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Author Topic: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part  (Read 12364 times)

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Paul

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NOTE: I know if I seriously disagree with Ray about something, I should contact him directly, but I'd like to hear what other people think about my thoughts. I'm not trying to start a debate; and I plan to contact Ray eventually.

I think it's such a better introduction. It actually makes you think! Read it!

http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html

I think the primary reason Ray gets so many rebukes is because part one is basically a long essay on the fact that the Bible is symbolic. That's the oldest argument: the Bible's symbolic. The Bible's not meant to be taken literally. Ray's in company with all the alternative doctrines and new agers with this premise. An exposé on how symbolic the Bible is is good for an open-minded audience, but not for Christians who have a rock solid belief in neverending punishment. Part 1 would be good later on in the series. Part 2 argues UR with the message of the Bible; part 1 just declares the Bible's symbolic.

Secondly, what about informing readers that the primary reason for the Christian Hell is corrupt Bible translations? How far do you need to get in the Lake of Fire series to read about that? Ray hints at it, in part 1, with one sentence: But when we remove a few unscriptural assumptions, a few pagan traditions, and a couple of totally mistranslated words, words that never appear in the Greek manuscripts, we will discover an even more profound love that God has for His creatures, rather than some monstrous god of eternal hatred which has been concocted by theologians and promulgated through bad translations for centuries.

The aion mistranslation is essential, first priority to understanding the Bible. It removes the concept of everlasting punishment, but more revelatory is that it reveals that John 3:16, the heart of Christendom's doctrine, means something completely different. A proper translation of John 3:16 is the beginning of the entire Universal Reconciliation doctrine unfolding. What I'm saying is how can Ray leave Christians under the impression that only some will be saved (John 3:16 in any conventional Bible translation); and that some people will be punished forever (i.e. Mat. 25:46 in any conventional Bible translation.) Ray needs to expound on the translation issue from the get go! He actually does this in an e-mail response:

http://bible-truths.com/email18.htm

Now that's a little more like it! How can a Christian take the Lake of Fire series seriously when their Bible contradicts it? I've seen loads of rebukes to Universal reconciliation (primarily on YouTube videos) and guess what? Every single rebuke focuses on verses like Mat. 25:46 that teach everlasting punsihment in conventional translations. Christians stop reading the lake of Fire series before he expounds on aion. Most probably don't even get to part 2, which, as I said, is a much better introduction.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2008, 07:12:11 PM by Paul »
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2008, 02:16:53 PM »

Those who are interested (like you Paul) will read more than one article and they will figure it out.

But most of all, if God is opening their hearts they will read and see.

It doesn't matter what order you present something to the blind, they will never see it.

Dennis
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mharrell08

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2008, 03:40:00 PM »

Paul,

Why do you always have a problem with the way Ray teaches? That may seem direct, but I am a direct kind of guy.

Almost every post you start, it is about a problem with the way Ray presents a different aspect of his teaching. You say you know that you are supposed to contact Ray about his writings, but then you continue to post these threads. You state that you are not trying to start a debate, but almost all of your threads start off debating Ray's method of teaching.

You even had the gall to post your excitement in another thread regarding Ray changing a paper excerpt that is on a hidden webpage. The paper doesn't even have a link on the main BT webpage, but you wanted to make a huge deal out of it. All of these questionable threads you start have no spiritual edification in them at all. Just read your own words on this very thread...no scriptures used to validate your point about how Ray can improve his teachings just a bunch of your opinion.

And that is what all your threads are really about....how you believe Ray's teachings are flawed and can be improved. And you have the nerve to try to get BT forum members to jump on your bandwagon. If you didn't believe they were flawed, you wouldn't keep trying to post threads nit-picking Ray's writing.

No man (including Ray) is perfect, but you really need to take some time and reflect on what your real motivation is with all these threads you start. Honestly it seems to be jealousy as you always insist on possessing the better teaching method. If this hurts your feelings, I'm sorry but maybe this will change your way of thinking and doing the things you have been doing on this forum.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Jackie Lee

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2008, 05:25:30 PM »

I really appreciate Ray's papers the order it is written doesn't matter to me.
 I am still learning, something I never seemed to do before I was directed to his writtings.
It is a slow process for me but so far I can't say I have found any errors.
I have not believed in an eternal hell and Ray helped verify this.
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KristaD

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2008, 06:09:56 PM »

I see what you mean Paul but I think this goes along with Darren asking if more people would come if the truth was being taught by all the preachers. It all boils down to whether or not God is opening their eyes to see it. Logically speaking your observation makes a lot of sense but God had him write it in that order for a reason, maybe the reason was so that most wouldn't see ?? I like that you question things ;).
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Paul

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2008, 06:28:20 PM »

I like that you question things ;).

 :)
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Roy Monis

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2008, 06:41:10 PM »

I like that you question things ;).

 :)


Sorry Paul!

"I like that you question things" quoted by KristaD is not quite correct. It is the wrong place to question things, the correct place comes under the heading "Email Ray" That's where youe questions should go not where they are being posted. Marques is correct in his admonishment of your behavior.

I say this in love.

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
 
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Paul

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2008, 07:02:31 PM »

Marques is correct in his admonishment of your behavior.

I don't feel that way.

Why do you always have a problem with the way Ray teaches?
 
Almost every post you start, it is about a problem with the way Ray presents a different aspect of his teaching.
 
You state that you are not trying to start a debate, but almost all of your threads start off debating Ray's method of teaching.
 
And that is what all your threads are really about....how you believe Ray's teachings are flawed and can be improved.
 
And you have the nerve to try to get BT forum members to jump on your bandwagon. If you didn't believe they were flawed, you wouldn't keep trying to post threads nit-picking Ray's writing.
 
No man (including Ray) is perfect, but you really need to take some time and reflect on what your real motivation is with all these threads you start.
 
...maybe this will change your way of thinking and doing the things you have been doing on this forum.

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KristaD

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2008, 07:23:49 PM »

You can hardly say whether or not I am correct in saying that I like anything. Perhaps this is the wrong place fro him to do it, I made no statement about that, only that I like that he questions things. Please don't say that I am incorrect in stating that I like something. That is not a judgment that anyone is qualified to make unless they know what is in my heart. I respect your opinion, Roy, but once again I feel singled out an judged by you.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2008, 09:57:35 PM by KristaD »
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Sirach

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2008, 08:18:16 PM »

@Paul,

When i started to read what Ray had to say, i was shocked...shocked to tears, confused, scared....you understand my meaning. What happened to me is that i could not stop reading, and i didnt go A to B .. i read it all randomly. You know what drives me the most...THRUTH...THRUTH is what drives me...i dont care what people say, what people do, but i am searching for biblical thruth...what is our Creator, our God saying in his Word...that is what i want to know...doctrines, dogma's, traditions...i really dont give a rats behind.

I have read a lot in my life..sites and books....so many opinions, so many views...it got me spinning. When i started on this website, i also had the feeling like...Well..here we have one again...becos it was so utterly going against today's teachings..i really tought...just another cult.

But after reading the first chapter...and i dont know wich one it was....i could not stop reading...and you know Paul...i have learned more in 3 months then in 20 year going to church....and the biggest thing i really learned is..IM CLAY...and I LOVE IT...and i learned that the Gospel REALLY is the Gospel of men being clay.

God will choose his people, the ones who will rule with our Lord Jesus, and judge the rest of humanity in rightenousness.

I think the point is not where you start reading...i think the point is understanding and admitting and accepting who you are...Clay...clay in the hands of your Creator, Clay in the hands of the only One who is looking after your well being...but He does it in His way, and for all humanity.

I was tought hell was for ever....but after reading some of Ray's teachings, i checked if it was right..i bought a translation of the old testament from Hebrew into Dutch wich the Jewish community also uses...and not ever is hell being mentioned in the old testament..i talked with people who know of the old testament a lot..and they confirmed that Jews do not believe in an eternal hellfire.

My advise to you...pray for open ears, pray for an enlightened mind, search for thruth, God's thruth....and where you begin reading will not have any effect on the biblacal facts wich you can learn from bible-thruths.....and most...give yourself up....be clay.

Gods blessings.

Sirach
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2008, 08:49:58 PM »

Well put, Sirach.  That has been my experience as well.  And I've been astounded at how God has laid even 'random' clicks in the order I apparently needed to read them...and continues to.  It's funny...I started with the Letters to Hagee and Kennedy.  I had no idea at the time that's where the Website started!  Then I started reading some of the emails and got a sense of what Ray was about.  When I was convinced that he wasn't starting his own religion, but was dealing softly with confusion and with authority against Theological hobbyists I had all the confidence I needed that the man behind this thing was worthy of respect.

Though I came for a few minutes of 'harmless' diversion, God dragged me to truth against all odds in a few hours time. 

I'll let the moderators run the website, but I did want to chime in alongside Sirach.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Paul

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2008, 09:09:42 PM »

I thought that was a really good post, Dave.
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dewey

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2008, 10:58:05 PM »

Hi, Paul

First of all, I would like to say that Ray Smith gets so many rebukes is because 99% of the people have not had their eyes opened or their ears cleaned out.  and an awful lot of them that have been called cannot accept the simplicity of salvation.  Do yourself a favor and go to the top of the main page.  If you read all of that, you will not be going to the Lake of Fire first.  We believe that by the time you get to the Lake of Fire series, everything will be perfectly clear.  By the time Paula and I got to number 1 The Book of Revelations is a book of symbols.   We were excited.  I would have been disappointed to have gotten further along and found out that
Revelations was a book of symbols.  It is important to understand that from jump street.  However, we must confess that before reading the Lake of Fire series we read 12 Truths to Understanding His Word.  Paula and I both believe that everthing you read on every page of Ray's material is just exactly like God wants it. 

Oh, by the way, I have a tendency to repeat what Mharrell 08 has to say.  But that would only get me in trouble  because it's clearly an attack on Paul.  After having made that mistake myself, I know now his message should have been a PM. 

In the Spirit of Jesus Christ, We Love Ya

Dewey & Paula said it

Going out on a limb for Jesus - why?  'cause that's where the fruit's at
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Samson

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2008, 12:00:49 AM »

Hello Everyone,

                      I appreciated your insight, Sirach, I sorta have a similiar perspective in that at least some of us might have spent many years studying the Bible, examining a variety of " Christian " Sites, including Universal ones and I know some Forum members who are former members of The Worldwide Church of God, Jehovah's Witnesses and other Denominations that " Use " the Bible alot and after all those many years exposed to a heavy diet of Scriptural study, we still had an inaccurate understanding of most Bible related subjects, at least for me, it was a humbling experience to embrace Ray's material. The Scripture that came to my mind while reading the Posts on this thread was at 2Timothy. 3:7 " Always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth." That's precisely the case with most, if not many of us, we might have known some of these Truths, prior to our discovering Ray's Site, but we didn't have a thorough accurate Knowledge of Truth. As an example, prior to my discovering Bible-Truths, I knew about Aion meaning Age-lasting, Kolasin meaning Chastisement, Hades and Sheol meaning the unseen and imperceptible, Oleuthron & Apollemi being Lost or losing or desolation instead of Destruction or Perish, I never believed in eternal Torment or the Soul being inherently immortal, never believed in the Trinity, etc, etc; However I never heard about the concept of NOT HAVING FREE WILL, didn't know Jesus was Jehovah, I used to think that Jehovah was The Father, didn't understand about The Beast being ourselves and many other things at this Site and I still have much to learn. From Ray's Site, I've learned the better part, so to speak.

             Also Dewey makes a good point about the order in which Ray places his Articles, that may be the way that's best for studying and learning the information. Dennis Vogel mentions that it doesn't matter which order you present things, because  if someone is Blind,  they won't see it until God opens their eyes.

                Just my thoughts on this Thread, no finger pointing from me, Just thoughts and observations.

                                       Your Brother, Samson.
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mharrell08

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2008, 01:41:41 AM »

Oh, by the way, I have a tendency to repeat what Mharrell 08 has to say.  But that would only get me in trouble  because it's clearly an attack on Paul.  After having made that mistake myself, I know now his message should have been a PM. 


To All:

I'm sorry, but my post was not an attack on Paul. I don't know Paul, but I can speak on and question his threads. And my post was not only just about this particular topic, but some of Paul's postings that always seem to question Ray's teaching and also always including a better method.

I have yet to read a scriptural reason as to why he feels whatever method is better than what Ray has presented at the time. Oh, I read how he 'thinks' his way would be better, but never based off the scriptures.

Look at one of his past postings about a sentence Ray had in the 'Exposing those that Contradict' paper: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7711.0.html

1. This paper has no link provided from the main webpage so any new visitor would not be able to find it.
2. Paul stated he was confused when he admits to reading part 1 of LOF series which states the book of Revelation is a book of symbol. So now he forgot the symbolism and is confused about the 2nd death.
3. Is overjoyed because Ray 'changed' the paper which is his goal on numerous threads he starts.

I have no qualms on calling a spade a spade. I don't know how many times a mod has stated to 'email Ray directly' if you disagree with him, but Paul does not respect that rule nor is patient to wait for Ray to answer his questions. He even started a thread about Ray not answering his email quickly: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7777.msg61929.html#msg61929

The bottom line is, why is it always Ray that needs to change something because YOU (you=whoever the shoe fits) don't understand. Almost every other member is humble when they start a post about not understanding an issue, willing to listen to others, and if they don't agree they choose to study the scriptures more on the issue. Sometimes it's not Ray teaching that's the problem, it could be your carnality getting in the way.

But in regards to Paul, I do not know him nor wish to 'attack' him. But I have yet to see any scriptural references on how Ray changing his teaching on whatever subject would be beneficial. This is the 2nd time a member has questioned Ray's teaching because 'they' don't understand something. Never once in either of the threads, is the original poster looking to make a change. It's always Ray that needs to change something. And to me, that's just self-absorbed.


Thanks,

Marques


P.S.  If anyone wants to discuss anything, PM me please. I am done with the boards. The ungratefulness is just astounding to Ray who God is surely using to teach his Word.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 08:37:04 AM by mharrell08 »
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Roy Monis

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2008, 07:35:31 AM »

Hi, Paul

First of all, I would like to say that Ray Smith gets so many rebukes is because 99% of the people have not had their eyes opened or their ears cleaned out.  and an awful lot of them that have been called cannot accept the simplicity of salvation.  Do yourself a favor and go to the top of the main page.  If you read all of that, you will not be going to the Lake of Fire first.  We believe that by the time you get to the Lake of Fire series, everything will be perfectly clear.  By the time Paula and I got to number 1 The Book of Revelations is a book of symbols.   We were excited.  I would have been disappointed to have gotten further along and found out that
Revelations was a book of symbols.  It is important to understand that from jump street.  However, we must confess that before reading the Lake of Fire series we read 12 Truths to Understanding His Word.  Paula and I both believe that everthing you read on every page of Ray's material is just exactly like God wants it. 

Oh, by the way, I have a tendency to repeat what Mharrell 08 has to say.  But that would only get me in trouble  because it's clearly an attack on Paul.  After having made that mistake myself, I know now his message should have been a PM. 

In the Spirit of Jesus Christ, We Love Ya

Dewey & Paula said it

Going out on a limb for Jesus - why?  'cause that's where the fruit's at


Hi! Brother Dewey & Paula

That was a good post and it accompanies my apology for my past behaviour. You have toned down a lot brother as I have which can only mean one thing, we are both learning that essential ingredient of humility and love. I keep getting accused of singling people out and being judgmental, but if truth and honesty are to be put on trial, I stand by honesty and truth whatever the verdict.
“Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. “Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. “Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent." (Matt.5:23-26).

God bless you brother and sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
 

 
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Roy Monis

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2008, 08:24:05 AM »

Hello Everyone,

                      I appreciated your insight, Sirach, I sorta have a similiar perspective in that at least some of us might have spent many years studying the Bible, examining a variety of " Christian " Sites, including Universal ones and I know some Forum members who are former members of The Worldwide Church of God, Jehovah's Witnesses and other Denominations that " Use " the Bible alot and after all those many years exposed to a heavy diet of Scriptural study, we still had an inaccurate understanding of most Bible related subjects, at least for me, it was a humbling experience to embrace Ray's material. The Scripture that came to my mind while reading the Posts on this thread was at 2Timothy. 3:7 " Always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth." That's precisely the case with most, if not many of us, we might have known some of these Truths, prior to our discovering Ray's Site, but we didn't have a thorough accurate Knowledge of Truth. As an example, prior to my discovering Bible-Truths, I knew about Aion meaning Age-lasting, Kolasin meaning Chastisement, Hades and Sheol meaning the unseen and imperceptible, Oleuthron & Apollemi being Lost or losing or desolation instead of Destruction or Perish, I never believed in eternal Torment or the Soul being inherently immortal, never believed in the Trinity, etc, etc; However I never heard about the concept of NOT HAVING FREE WILL, didn't know Jesus was Jehovah, I used to think that Jehovah was The Father, didn't understand about The Beast being ourselves and many other things at this Site and I still have much to learn. From Ray's Site, I've learned the better part, so to speak.

             Also Dewey makes a good point about the order in which Ray places his Articles, that may be the way that's best for studying and learning the information. Dennis Vogel mentions that it doesn't matter which order you present things, because  if someone is Blind,  they won't see it until God opens their eyes.

                Just my thoughts on this Thread, no finger pointing from me, Just thoughts and observations.

                                       Your Brother, Samson.


Hi! Brother Samson and Frecklegirl

2Timothy 3:7! I thought you were pointing at me, brother, because it hit me straight on the chin as it must be doing for quite a few here. How true, I've done my round on the internet and dropped all the sites like red hot irons, but when one sees the truth it has a habit of sticking, and bible-truths has done precisely that. What I know now I'd never have known had it not been for Ray, God bless him. 

Thanks for the bruise anyway, it's a lesson.

God bless you brother and sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
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Roy Monis

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2008, 09:15:09 AM »

You can hardly say whether or not I am correct in saying that I like anything. Perhaps this is the wrong place fro him to do it, I made no statement about that, only that I like that he questions things. Please don't say that I am incorrect in stating that I like something. That is not a judgment that anyone is qualified to make unless they know what is in my heart. I respect your opinion, Roy, but once again I feel singled out an judged by you.


Hi! KristaD

Once more we cross swords over my judgmental attitude toward you. I just pointed out that you were incorrect to agree with him posting his topic in the area where he did. I can't see how that implies that I have singled you out and judged you. I agree with you that it is good that doubtful issues should be questioned, but they should be directed to the right source. I never intended it to give offense and I apologize if it has.

Misunderstandings like this are causing the forum to lose valuable input such as that provided by members like Marques who has threatened to withdraw from it leaving the board clear for unrealistic and unfair criticism from members who are inputting negative views of no edifying value. Can you not see this KristaD, why do you always paint me as a beast worse than the one I am?    "Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, When it is in your power to do it." (Pro.3:27).

Make no mistake, I love you as a sister in Christ and would do nothing to intentionally offend you.

God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
 
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Sozo

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2008, 10:54:55 AM »

Guys...there is something wrong here!  Can everyone see what this thread is doing to the body of Christ?  It is only sowing discord!

I am in complete agreement with mharrell08 here.  I have made the suggestion in the thread "Specially" a while back that it seemed as if Paul was sowing discord among believers...and then I withdrew that statement later.  Maybe I should not have withdrawn it.  Just look at what is going on here...look at all the emotionally fueled statements that are taking place.  Now let me ask you this:  Is this thread beneficial for anyone?  Is this thread causing discord among us?

Paul, I don't know your heart or your intentions.  If you are sincere, then maybe you should stop and think about what you post before you post it.  Just go back and look at all of your past postings and see how many times they have gotten things "stirred up." 

Everyone should be able to come here and ask the hard questions, enjoy the fellowship with others, and learn the truths found in Scripture....Not argue about the way you think things should be!

Now, maybe we should just drop this thread and go on to more edifying topics.
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Paul

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Re: I kinda wish part 2 of the Lake of Fire series was the first part
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2008, 12:17:56 PM »

Just go back and look at all of your past postings and see how many times they have gotten things "stirred up."

Once or twice.

I am in complete agreement with mharrell08 here.  I have made the suggestion in the thread "Specially" a while back that it seemed as if Paul was sowing discord among believers...and then I withdrew that statement later.  Maybe I should not have withdrawn it.  Just look at what is going on here...look at all the emotionally fueled statements that are taking place.

That's my fault? mharrell08's the one who's ridiculously demonizing me.

Why do you guys think I'm being negative. Why did you say I was stirring up trouble in that thread "Specially"? I was just expressing the fact that a very important verse uses some of the most obsolete English in the most well-establish translation of the Bible.

Lemme try to clarify my original post. I think a lot of readers are turned away by the long exposé on how symbolic the Bible is, because people who take the Bible literally reject that concept from the get go. I like how part two focuses on the message of the Bible. Might make people think. Then people might be open to the fact that the Bible is symbolic.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 12:25:04 PM by Paul »
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