Revelation 20-23 what am I missing here?

[danaman1]

Revelation 20
The Thousand Years
1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Satan's Doom
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Dead Are Judged
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21
The New Jerusalem
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
5He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

9One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia[a]in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits[
thick,[c] by man's measurement, which the angel was using. 18The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass. 19The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone. The first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20the fifth sardonyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.[d] 21The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass.

22I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 22
The River of Life
1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. 6The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."
Jesus Is Coming
7"Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book."
8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"

10Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy."

12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

17The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
      Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.



I wish I could read Hewbrew and Greek.....although I have 5-6 translations of the bible....and a concordance......
this part I cant understand or I understand it all to well!

Rev20:10 and 20:14 don't sound like anything I wanna be a part of.....2nd death lake of fire.....says the devil, false prophet and the beast are thrown....day and night tormented..... hmmm....and then anyone not found in the book of life thrown into as well.....A loving God throws us?

Rev21:7-8 He who overcomes will inherit all this....but the others get the 2nd death....
Rev21:27 Nothing impure will enter into it....nor anyone who....but only those written in the book of life.....hmmmm the book of life seems important to be in!
says only those who's names were found written the book of life will enter....
Rev22:14-15
says that the "dogs" will be outside.....
so God will have "heaven" part then outside the city there are those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. So then sin still exists? If we are all changed and purged....then how is there still an outside with those who do such things?
"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

these passages don't say anything about the 2nd death(lake of fire) giving life or entrance into with those who are written in the book of life......
while the first resurrection has God's elect being....
"Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."

I know God is in control.....
Who am I to know his will...
I don't see the 2nd death producing anything good for those who are thrown into it....seems more like destruction and oblivion....yet Jesus says the dogs are outside? is sin really purged.....do the dead all change to enter into this city? if so then Jesus is lying? who is outside? this is the final chapter of the Word.....those who love and practice falsehood? how? I thought that the 2nd death lake of fire changed all that! yet this is after that sequence.
HELP! HEWBREW GREEK GOD
what am I missing here?
thoughts,opinions, and scripture welcome please!

In Christ's love always,
D. Patric Hayes

[mrl1970]

REV. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

This verse says that the Spirit and the bride(being the elect) are saying to those who thirst (which are those outside the gate) to come and drink the water of life freely.

rev. 21:25-27

25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither
whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

If the gates are not shut at day and there is no night that means they are always open.
So in order for those to enter the gates one must do his commandments

rev. 22:14-15

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

One who does his commandments ceases to be one who cannot enter the gate.

Ezekiel 47:5-12
5Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.

6And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.

7Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.

8Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

10And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

Now look at this
Revelation 22:1-2

1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Mark 13:28-29
28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

[mrl1970]

 Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

[Kat]

Hi D. Patric,

I thought that the 2nd death lake of fire changed all that! yet this is after that sequence.

If you are trying to understand Revelation in sequence or as if the events are in chronological order through that book, then you will not be able to understand it.  Here is an email that Ray explains this about a different subject, but you should see how it applies to this too.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3212.0.html -----

can you explain the "war in heaven", since the bible tells us that we will be judging angels.

COMMENT:  This "war in heaven" has little to do with "judging angels."
When one believes that the statements in Revelation are literal, and that they
are in chronological order, that person's understanding will be about zero.  There
are many surprises in Revelation when we follow the instruction of understanding
that God gives us in the Scriptures. As long as we REFUSE to believe and obey
God's instruction, our spiritual understanding will be near zero.

Listen carefully:  This "war in heaven" is NOT LITERAL; it does not take place
in OUTER SPACE; it does not happen IN THE THRONE ROOM OF GOD; it does
not take place chronologically AFTER the wonder of a woman in Rev. 12:1, but BEFORE
the beast comes up out of the sea in 13:1; it does not interpret itself within its own verse; it
is explained by OTHER Scripture; it is a SYMBOL; and it is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which is the "spirit of prophecy"(19:10) and therefore is the "WORDS OF SPIRIT" of Jesus (John 6:63) for which we also need a SECOND WITNESS, etc., etc., etc.

If Revelation is a literal account of the events to happen in chronological order, then read a book by Hal Lindsey or Paul Crouch and you will understand the Book of Revelation--surely I josh!
--------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[danaman1]

indeed.....I understand 0!
I have yet to see any passage that says that those who go into the lake of fire come out changed (It says the devil, false prophet, and the beast are tormented there day and night for an age)......I would assume those also thrown into the fire would be tormented(being thrown in general does not show any care or concern for something), but what do I know?
its all Greek to me lol so to speak.....
I know God has a plan....and it would seem I have no spiritual eyes or ears to see or hear it....as long as God works things out....no point in me reading or trying to figure things out.....or praying for that matter.....he will do it all.....who am I to resist him? It seems as if this is his will for me not to understand it.....as the parables confuses the wise and learned(of which I am surely not wise LOL), yet sometimes I think it was to confuse the enemies of God.....but it seems only the elect can understand it, of which certainly I am not one.....at least not at this point.....I am humble and fall constantly.....I just hope God has mercy upon me a simple sinner.....
forgive my error brothers and sisters.....

In Christ's love always,
D. Patric Hayes

[Kat]

Hi D. Patric,

Don't be too hard on yourself.  We all have got a lot to learn and it takes more than being wise in this world, it takes lots of study and the Holy Spirit within to understand the Scriptures.

2Tim 2:15  Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I would assume those also thrown into the fire would be tormented(being thrown in general does not show any care or concern for something),

When you understand what the Lake of Fire is, you can understand that God does not cast people in because He doesn't care for them.  The Lake of Fire is judgment that must be brought to the world.

2Peter 3:7  But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Ray has an whole article about the Lake of fire and WHO it is at this link http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html
But what happens to those that must go throught this judgment?  Here is the Scripture much quoted by Ray.

Isa 26:9  With my soul I have desired You in the night,
       Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
       For when Your judgments are in the earth,
       The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

The torments in the Lake of fire comes form those being painfully made aware of their sins and the process of being purged of them.  It is not physical torments, but this is torments of the mind and soul.  And as the Scripture above states "the world will learn righteousness."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[winner08]

D. Patric Hayes: There's no need to fret over such things as in not understanding revelations. It is just not meant to be at this time for you to understand. It might never be time. Then again only God knows. I have a hard time also with revelations. However instead of trying to understand something that is not meant to be for me at this time I try to consentrate on the teachings of Christ and try to learn the lessons that He taught, so that I may lead a full life. Mainly the Gospels and proverbs. This has great lessons in them, talk about learning some spiritual truths, wow . Anyways keep on searching you will fine what you need.

                                           Darren

[indianabob]

Friend Patric, danaman1

Having read your last message about the lake of fire may I suggest you read again Installment 16 the most recent article on the B T site.
It will answer most of your concerns about how folks will be treated in the judgment period, the purpose for it and what they will learn.
Below is the last few paragraphs from the article. Please consider investing some time in becoming familiar with it.
Thanks, indiana bob



CONCLUSION

In today's world of Christendom, it is hardly admitted that the life of a Believer is to be one of tribulations and trials, pain and suffering, sorrow and death. It is rather taught that Believers are to be healthy, wealthy, worldly, and wise. After all, who wants to live a life of "dying?" If the Christian life of overcoming is such a great life, why not live it FOREVER? No, our goal is to GET OUT OF THIS LIFE.

Yes, there is joy in knowing that our suffering and trials, and FIRE, is producing something of eternal value, but the process is not the goal. Look at Paul's life:

    THE TRIALS THAT PAUL SUFFERED:

FROM: II Cor. 11:23-28).

    Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more;

    in labors more abundant,

    in stripes [blows] above measure [in excess, inordinately, exceeding reasonable limits],

    in prisons more frequent,

    in [perils of] deaths often.

    five times received I forty stripes save one.

    Thrice was I beaten with rods,

    once was I stoned,

    thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

    In journeys often,

    in perils of waters,

    in perils of robbers,

    in perils by mine own countrymen,

    in perils by the heathen,

    in perils in the city,

    in perils in the wilderness,

    in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

    In weariness and painfulness,

    in watching often,

    in hunger and thirst,

    in fasting often,

    in cold and nakedness.

    Beside those things that are without... daily, the care of all the churches.

All of these things took place over a period of about 25 years in Paul's life. How great was his normal day? Without the hope laid before him, he would not have endured such pain and abuse as he outlined for us in II Cor. 11. Like it or not, here is our lot in life as Believers:

    "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    For consider Him that endured such contradiction [strife, disobedience] of sinners against Himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaks unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him: For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives. If ye endure CHASTENING, God deals with you as with SONS ; for what son is he whom the father chastens not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not SONS" (Heb. 12:1-8).

We are on a road that leads to son-ship. We are to be THE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD (Yah I know, it's a little over my head too). See: John 1:12, Rom. 8:14, Rom. 8:19, Phil. 2:15, I John 3:1 & 2. Do we think that such a task can be accomplished with little or no effort? If we are not on the road to son-ship, then we are spiritual ********! I for one don't desire to be a spiritual *******. One cannot be a "Son" and be drunk on worldly materialism, filled with pride and vanity, consumed with self-aggrandizement, and hell-bent on personal "free will," and presume to be on the road to son-ship.

The heat, pressure, and fire, that God afflicts upon His called and chosen Elect to produce the godly character befitting sons of God, the Church calls curses of the Devil. Even as you sit and read the words of this Installment on hell, God is bringing spiritual heat, pressure, and fire into your life. You can either reject it by bringing out your Christian fire extinguisher, or you can let God's Consuming Fire burn out the resistance and animosity toward His correcting Word. You can either live to self and die to God, or you can die to self and live to God. If God is dealing with you, it is a painful experience that will liberate and set free your very soul, spirit, and mind.

Let's rehearse these words of encouragement again:

    "...let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Notice that Jesus endured the cross, and all that went with it, "...for the joy that was set before Him..." There is a purpose for what we do and for what God is doing through us. There is a great goal set before us. There is great joy NOW, but only because what is "set before us."

Don't think that I am immune, or indifferent, or ignorant to the trails and pain that my readers are enduring to become obedient unto death to our Lord. I am not teaching things of which I have no personal experience. This "spiritual fire" business is real. I experience it daily. I don't like it--it is extremely emotionally trying and difficult. But it is necessary. There is a saying in body-building: "No pain, no gain." It is equally true for building spiritual muscle.

But it is an enigma. It is a paradox. It appears to even be a contradiction. Paul stated with a clear and spiritual mind that:

    Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong" (II Cor. 12:10).

WHAT? Is Paul crazy? "For when I am WEAK, then am I STRONG?"

Yes, Paul is crazy; crazy like a fox! When we think that we are strong, then we are truly weak. But when we KNOW THAT WE ARE WEAK, then God can make us strong. Listen how perfectly the truly great apostles understood these marvelous truths of God:

    "Humble yourselves [admit your weakness] in the sight of the Lord, and He shall lift you up" (James 4:10)

    "Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time" (I Pet. 5:6).

Peter is one of my favorites. He likes to add "details." He adds to James statement by saying, "in due time." Yes, God will "lift you up," but not always today or tomorrow, but for sure, "in due time."

    "But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses" (I Tim. 6:11-12).

[Dave in Tenn]

Patric, in partial answer.

I don't think anybody is suggesting (not least of all Ray) that the Lake of Fire experience will be a pleasant sunday afternoon.  

Heb 10:31  It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!

I'm as ignorant as you as to whether or not there is 'a verse' that says we will come out of the LOF changed.  But there are 66 books of the Bible that uniformly teach that all of God's creation will be made complete and plenty of 'verses' that talk about us being changed and conformed to image of His Son.  We might be shaky on the 'mechanics' (you and I) but there can't be any doubt as to the end result.

There's no way with a cursory once-through read on a topic so filled with symbolism that we are likely to get it.  But if you had asked either of us a year ago (or a few months ago) whether we would be where we are, my answer at least would have been, "Hell, no!".  Some of it comes in a flash (relatively speaking).  Some of it comes with more study and experience.  

I remember taking an algebra class in Junior High School.  I looked at the end of the book and remember thinking, "There is NO way I'm going to learn this stuff."  But precept built on precept, and understanding on understanding and I wound up doing OK with it.  This is not that different.  Sure, light bulbs have to flash over our little heads from time to tiime, but mostly we have to keep plowing.

On a side note:  Before I joined the forum, I read a lot of posts.  I read that almost ALL the members posting thought they had either 1.  Little hope of being the in first ressurection  2.  Only hope that they would be  or 3.  No hope that they would be.  I don't recall anybody when asked saying, "Yes, I am sure of my Election."



 

[hillsbororiver]

I'm as ignorant as you as to whether or not there is 'a verse' that says we will come out of the LOF changed.  

The following from 1Corinthinians Chapter 3 does not specifically state what exact condition one emerges from the LOF except for being saved, which is hopeful enough for me! 

1Co 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Peace,

Joe

[Kat]

I think this verse is key to understanding what the "fire" in the Lake of fire is all about.

Jer 23:29  Is not My Word like a fire? says Jehovah; and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?
v. 30  So Jehovah says, Behold, I am against the prophets who steal My Words each one from his neighbor.
v. 31  Jehovah says, Behold, I am against the prophets who use their tongues and say, He says.
v. 32  Jehovah says, Behold, I am against those who prophesy false dreams and tell them, and cause My people to go astray by their lies and by their lightness. Yet I did not send them nor command them; therefore they shall not profit this people at all, says Jehovah.

Heb 4:12  For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This is what shall burn and torment those in the Lake of fire, 'the Word of God.'  Those who have been false teachers and have portrayed our God as some kind of monster who will torture most of mankind for eternity, all these arrogant, haughty blasphemers will be brought low and will be humbled.  By the 'fire' of His Word. 

Think about Paul, he says of himself to have been chief of sinners (1 Tim. 1:15), he was humbled in seconds.  But you can see in Bob's post all that he had to suffer, it almost seems like Paul was being 'tormented' for righteousness sake.  Paul makes a curious statement where he is talking about how much he cared for the Believers.

2Cor 11:28  Besides those things that are without, there is that which presseth upon me daily, anxiety for all the churches.
v. 29  Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is caused to stumble, and I burn not?

You can see he is talking about how he felt when one of the Believers messed up, it says he burned.  This is a feeling he had, just like those in the Lake of fire will be 'burning' on the inside.  It's the feeling they will have when they learn how wrong they have been.

Just wanted to show these Scriptures, as the Scriptures are a parable and those whose eyes are opened will be shown how to put these things together to find the answers, but you must dig it out 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[iris]

Hi Joe,

It seems like those that goes through the LOF would come out on the other
side (so to speak) in perfect condition. Or...as perfect human beings...
wouldn't they?


Iris

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Iris,

Yes, I agree they will be purified, you also alluded to what I have yet to find a clear answer to and that is do they emerge as spirit or as a perfect human to be "changed" (into spirit) at some future point?

Peace,

Joe

   

[indianabob]

Hi Iris,

Yes, I agree they will be purified, you also alluded to what I have yet to find a clear answer to and that is do they emerge as spirit or as a perfect human to be "changed" (into spirit) at some future point?

Peace,
Joe

Good comment Joe,
Most have wondered about this and I haven't a qualified answer either, however we can perhaps get a hint by the experience of our Elder Brother when he was resurrected and appeared to the others.  It is evident that he had spiritual qualities after his resurrection that had not been apparent before then and yet he was able to appear and communicate with his brethren as if he was the same.

I think, without scriptural evidence at this time, that the Bible gives indications of how God works with humankind and it is my impression that we cannot be perfect while we are yet flesh and blood.  The old man must die.
Jesus was unique in this manner and there will not be another like him.  God can grant us the life of the age to come and immortality but Jesus will always be the only begotten son of God who has not sinned or never come short of the glory that is God.

God willing perhaps we can meditate on this question and explore what Kathy has transcribed of Ray's articles and find a better answer.

[AK4]

Eze 37:12  Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13  And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14  And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

He put his Spirit in them...

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Their bodies are now dead because of sin because the Spirit of Christ is in them.  And His spirit that he puts in them, quickens (makes alive)their mortal bodies after going through the LOF/second death.

1Co 15:48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

So now since they have His spirit they will also bear the image of the heavenly.

Php 3:21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

They get a body like His because they have his spirit and their carnal minds are subdued.  And now for indianabobs comment....

Most have wondered about this and I haven't a qualified answer either, however we can perhaps get a hint by the experience of our Elder Brother when he was resurrected and appeared to the others.  It is evident that he had spiritual qualities after his resurrection that had not been apparent before then and yet he was able to appear and communicate with his brethren as if he was the same.

Great comment indianabob, I agree.  Maybe this is the end/new beginning result also for those in the 2nd resurrection they will be like the One who put his spirit in them.  So this prayer that Jesus gave...

John 17:20-23
20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

....was for ALL that go through the lake of fire--the elect and those in the 2nd resurrection.

I want to keep trying to link scripture with what i've put here, but it feels as if i could on forever (eonian  ).  I hope i didnt stretch this too far. 

in Jesus

Anthony

ps  why cant those that come out of the lake of fire/second death get the same treatment as those that are in the first resurrection?  this thought humbles me more because it reassures me that no one will be superior to the other when the consumption of the ages arrives