bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Forum related how to's?  Post your questions to the membership.


.

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Faith  (Read 3162 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Falgn0n

  • Guest
Faith
« on: August 10, 2008, 07:31:03 AM »

Hi all.

I am not new to the forum, just haven't been around in a while. :). I have a question about faith.... "How does it work?" Let me try to clarify the question....
While i was part of the "othodox" (charismatic) christian church, we were taught that you were given a measure of faith (Rom 12:3) and we were told that we excercise our faith through affirmation, belief and sometimes through an act (such as the man that was told to go and wash seven times in the river to have his sight restored - his act "proved his faith" and he had the thing he believed he could have, in this case - his sight)
Now, of course, i have come to understand that it is all spiritual - everything that Jesus did for people on a physical level, he meant for his disciples to do on a spiritual level (like opening the eyes of the spiritually blind.) "Greater things than these"

but my question has to do with how we handle this issue of "faith" in our day to day lives - I understand that i completely rely on Him and Him alone for my salvation, but what of goals and aspirations in this life? what about crises and difficulties in this life?

I also understand that we continue to trust in Him and believe in Him IN SPITE of our sufferings and tribulations... ("though He slay me, yet will i trust in Him") .... but my question has to do with TEMPORAL things.

Is there a "faith" to believe that he will supply the needs of my family (for example) when a financial crisis hits us?  Is there faith to believe Him for a deliverance from a persistent emotional problem that hampers normal family life? (like anxiety or stress)

Or do we just remain in a state of inertia and let Him carry us along, to "whatever end"?

I remember reading in one of Ray's teachings about how prayer is only real when it is initiated by the Holy Spirit Himself - God will Himself bring us to our knees in prayer and petition, there is literally nothing we can do of ourselves ("...apart from Him we can do nothing...")

So then, what is the nature and purpose of 'Faith' where it concerns our natural lives, earthly concerns and responsibilties? And how do we apply it?

Thanks for your patience with me ;)

Falgn0n
Logged

OBrenda

  • Guest
Re: Faith
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2008, 10:29:12 AM »

Hi Falgn0n

I aslo came out of a Charismatic Church.  Although they don't put it this way, nor did we comprehend their theroy clearly......."God is not a Sugar Dady"  nor a "Magic Genie" in which we are to optain all our desires from if we only have strong faith.  This is also where I believe springs another theory that if people are sick, or are in crisis, it is the person fault.

I think the aspect you are trying to grasp is,...is it O.K. to want something?......Is there a "faith" to believe that he will supply the needs of my family (for example) when a financial crisis hits us?  Is there faith to believe Him for a deliverance from a persistent emotional problem that hampers normal family life? (like anxiety or stress)

Or do we just remain in a state of inertia and let Him carry us along, to "whatever end"?


I don't believe we just remain in a state of inertia,

We pray with Faith, and Honesty, and Reverance......Just as Jesus did on the Cross.
1. Jesus has more faith than any of us!
2. He didn't deny his suffering and cried out "Please take this cup from me"
3. He prayed and acceptet the Will of God before his own.

I think we Should pray for what we disire to be delivered out of, like emotional problems of our family!
The part of us applying our faith to it, is beleiving no matter how long we suffer with these things,  God has a purpose that will eventualy come to "Good".  (This is not easy by any means)

My personal experience when I reach the point of "Complete Surrender" in a matter,
which means...I am no longer in my "Flesh" or my "Will"... resistant to what "IS" 
Then even if the issue is unresolved in a Loved One, I rest in His peace, and no longer react to the drama, but walk in faith!  This usually wavers if we forget and focus on the storm, and stop looking at Jesus who is standing upon the sea holding his arm out to us.  Be comforted that even if we do subcum to the distraction, he is able and willing to lift us back out!

Don't be suprised by the firey trail, understand that God is Purging the chauff from our lives, not just
because we don't have Faith or have Sinned, (everyone sins) But because you are Called!

Hope this helps,
Brenda
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Faith
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2008, 02:00:26 PM »


Hi Falgn0n,

I'm glad you have returned to the forum  :)
Here are a couple of emails that may help with your question.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1710.0.html -------

Faith is the assurance that God's Word is Truth and that God will do all that He has promised.  This assurance (faith) is a GIFT of God and cannot be obtained by any human endeavor (Eph. 2:8-9).  Reading and hearing the Scriptures can increase your faith, BUT ONLY BECAUSE GOD SUPERNATURALLY GIVES YOU THAT FAITH AND ASSURANCE, as you read and hear.  Through faith you will both know God's will and live God's will.  You must go to God for faith--there is no other source of true spiritual faith and assurance of God's trustworthiness.

God be with you,

Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3096.0.html --------

    ABSOLUTELY, there are things you "must do," Roy, but don't think for I second that it is YOU who are going to ORIGINATE all of that "doing."  Yes, we MUST live by faith and not sight as Paul admonishes us, but how do we do that, where does that faith come from, etc., etc., etc?

    It is ALL OF GOD.  Faith to believe God, to believe in God, to believe His Word, must come FROM GOD (Eph. 2:08).  It is a GIFT from God.  We don't choose Christ, but rather He chooses us (John 15:16), and we do not come to Christ, but rather the Father drags us (John 6:44).  And we do not produce spiritual fruit. Our spiritual fruit comes from another source than ourselves, it is the "fruit OF THE SPIRIT," that's the source.

    So, is there something you can or must do now, or "next" as you say in order to ensure your calling and salvation, that you can or must do independent of God?  No, of course not. It is all of God. All that you either do or don't do is based on the foreknowledge of God's sovereignty. God will make you sweat bullets before He is done with you, and you will think many times that if YOU don't come up with a solution, you will utterly fail, but in the final analysis, it will be God Who provided the solution THROUGH your bullet sweating.

    Don't become discouraged in well-doing, for God will have the victory in you eventually.

    God be with you,

    Ray

Logged

Falgn0n

  • Guest
Re: Faith
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2008, 12:47:47 PM »

Thanks for the replies, you guys....  ::)

"Faith is the assurance that God's Word is Truth and that God will do all that He has promised."

Well, what has He promised? what can i believe Him for

My problem is with the idea that we have no free will, that all things are ordained of God and that nothing is ever outside of His Will.
So, whatever I am going through, or whatever desires I have in my heart, or whatever fears or expectations I have (both of good and of ill) are all the product of His sovereignty over me... What room is there then for petitioning Him, or asking Him for anything (be it provision or deliverance or guidance or whatever) ... He has already pre-ordained what will be in my life tomorrow, what I'm going through now and what the end of it all will be.
I find myself completely inert, and totally unable to find any hope in this life - all I do now, is sort of "hang on" and hope for the best - there is no way for me to know what the end of a matter will be, what the purpose if my trial is, there is no point in pleading with God for understanding, either.

He will bring about an "enlightenment" of sorts to reveal His plan to me, or He will not. He will bring healing and restoration into my life, or He will not. I will overcome persistent sins and problems, or I will not. I will be converted, or I will not.
All of these things will be by His own volition, and not mine...

The result of this, for me, is a feeling of "pointlessness" and almost, "hopelessness" as well.

The Bible is full of admonishments to pray and seek and do and change this or change that - but none of these things will ever take place anyway, unless God Himself has arranged for it to take place in my life. Think of the sermon on the mount, think about lust and murder and any of the rest of Jesus' commandments (the "One" in particular: "If you love me you will obey my commandments") - it is not possible for us to "decide" and "choose" to obey His commandments, it is not even possible for us to "Love" Him.... Not unless He first PLACES the Love within us and that in turn produces the ability and desire to obey His commandments (in fact, we will probably not even fully realise that it's happening, it will be as effortless as breathing, it will be our nature) - My point is this:

He is Sovereign over every detail of my life (right?) all that I am and do is by His design, how then can I think that I have the power to, through faith or prayer or whatever other means I can think of, change things in my life (wether physical, financial or spiritual)?


Falgn0n
Logged

Kent

  • Guest
Re: Faith
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2008, 01:16:56 PM »

Quote
I find myself completely inert, and totally unable to find any hope in this life - all I do now, is sort of "hang on" and hope for the best - there is no way for me to know what the end of a matter will be, what the purpose if my trial is, there is no point in pleading with God for understanding, either.

Not knowing what the end of the matter will be is, IMO, part of the spice of life. Who wants to go around knowing everything that will happen to them? Where is the challenge of that?

Quote
He will bring about an "enlightenment" of sorts to reveal His plan to me, or He will not. He will bring healing and restoration into my life, or He will not. I will overcome persistent sins and problems, or I will not. I will be converted, or I will not.
All of these things will be by His own volition, and not mine...

The result of this, for me, is a feeling of "pointlessness" and almost, "hopelessness" as well.

Who among us knows what Gods' plan is for us? Anyone have it mapped out for them? Anyone? We just live it out as He sets it up for us. He knows the end, but we dont. Personally, as rough as things get sometimes, I don't think I want to know what will happen. To know it would make life really boring, if safer. Speaking for myself, I just have the faith to believe God will do things for His purposes and that it is done for my ultimate good, as much as I hate going through it sometimes.

I know what you mean, though, and I'd like to encourage you, but truthfully, I don't know how without making light of what may be a serious situation you are facing.
Maybe just a heartfelt prayer "God, I need some help here"?


JMO, .02, etc.
Logged

AK4

  • Guest
Re: Faith
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2008, 02:27:32 PM »

Hi FalgnOn,

Just a quick post.  We have no free will, but we do have choice.  God doesnt have us hanging from a string so to speak.  He just puts us in a situation to make the choice.  And if you think about it, He puts us in that situation where we could not choose anything but what He wanted.  We didnt have the free will to do it because God put a cause there, but we did have a choice but it just that God made it where YOU will choose what he wanted. 

Lets look at your post.  God caused everything in your life to happen the way it has happened so you would choose to type that post.  You chose to do it, but God caused it.  You can choose to be inert after you learned you have no free will and all is of God or you can choose to be proactive in your persuit to follow Gods commandments.  God caused this feeling in you, but you make the choice.  And still what you choose is exactly what God had planned in the first place.

You can kind of say God planned everything to be in the end all will glorify Him and give him thanks and praise.  If you choose to be inert, when you come out of the LOF/second death, resurrection you will be so happy that God gave you another chance at life, (You will probably have to reflect back to this same post in the LOF) you will give Him praise.

Logged

Dave in Tenn

  • Administrator
  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4122
    • FaceBook David Sanderson
Re: Faith
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2008, 03:02:45 PM »

Hi.  I have felt and expressed this same sense of inertia you are describing.  In some ways I still do.  What has helped both my understanding and 'action' is the recognition that what we DO, Pray, Obey, Believe today IS HOW God determines our tommorrow.  

Ray teaches that it is specifically the foreknowledge of God (an aspect of his Soveriegnty, but not the full package) that smashes 'the concept' of our free will.  The fact that God KNOWS what what all our CHOICES will be doesn't mean that these choices shouldn't be made.  Just as it was necessary for Jesus to choose to Die in order for us to be forgiven (as absolute a 'pre-ordained' event as can be imagined from Scripture) it's also necessary for US to choose (both rightly and wrongly) for God to act to fulfill His will.

This is a huge concept and understanding it doesn't come overnight.  I certainly am struggling hard with it.  But, for whatever it's worth, I'm just walking in whatever light I have, learning, obeying, living, being filled with His Spirit, stumbling, sinning, repenting, moving on.

You already understand that God is not the great vending machine in the sky waiting for us to supply the right coinage and press the right button to grant our desires.  (The REALLY 'spiritual' believe He's the a Tremendously HUGE and Loving vending machine in the sky waiting for us to supply the right coinage and press the right button to grant our desires.)

I'm only just beginning to understand that I am the one more like a vending machine.  He's put His faith and His Spirit in me.  He's pressing all the right buttons on me to get out of me what HE desires.  

I hope some of this helps.  I hope some of it helps ME as I continue to grapple with this.  For now, my choice is to live in the light I have and seek more light.    
Logged
Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Faith
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2008, 03:22:57 PM »


Hi Falgn0n,

Quote
Well, what has He promised?

This is from ISBE (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia) that will give you a good idea of the promises from the NT.

In the New Testament these promises are founded on, and regarded as having their true fulfillment in, Christ and those who are His (2Co_1:20; Eph_3:6). The promise of the Spirit is spoken of by Jesus as “the promise of my Father” (Luk_24:49; Act_1:4), and this was regarded as fulfilled at Pentecost. The promise of a Saviour of the seed of David is regarded as fulfilled in Christ (Act_13:23, Act_13:32, Act_26:6; Rom_1:2; Rom_4:13; Rom_9:4).
Paul argues that the promise to Abraham that he should be “heir of the world,” made to him before circumcision, is not confined to Israel, but is open to all who are children of Abraham by faith (Rom_4:13-16; compare Gal_3:16, Gal_3:19, Gal_3:29).
In like manner the writer to the Hebrews goes back to the original promises, giving them a spiritual and eternal significance (4:1; 6:17; 11:9, etc.).

The New Testament promises include manifold blessings and hopes, among them “life,” “eternal life” (1Ti_4:8; 1Ti_6:19; 2Ti_1:1; Jam_1:12),
the “kingdom” (Jam_2:5),
Christ's “coming” (2Pe_3:9, etc.),
“new heavens and a new earth” (2Pe_3:13), etc.
For “promise” and “promised” in the King James Version, the Revised Version (British and American) has frequently other terms, as “word” (Psa_105:42), “spake,” “spoken” (Deu_10:9; Jos_9:21; Jos_22:4; Jos_23:5, Jos_23:15, etc.), “consented” (Luk_22:6), etc.
----------------------------------------------------------

Quote
He has already pre-ordained what will be in my life tomorrow, what I'm going through now and what the end of it all will be.
I find myself completely inert, and totally unable to find any hope in this life - all I do now, is sort of "hang on" and hope for the best - there is no way for me to know what the end of a matter will be, what the purpose if my trial is, there is no point in pleading with God for understanding, either.


He is Sovereign over every detail of my life (right?) all that I am and do is by His design, how then can I think that I have the power to, through faith or prayer or whatever other means I can think of, change things in my life (wether physical, financial or spiritual)?

Actually you do know what the end of the matter will be;

1Cor 15:28  When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things in subjection under Him, that God may be all in all.

All of humanity are to become subject to God and be His children.  But first you have to experience all that you need to learn in this life.

1John 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
v. 3  And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

So to become His children we have to "be like Him" and purify ourselves.  This is part of this experience while we are in the flesh, the Elect are going through the purifing process in this life, for the rest it will be in the Lake of Fire. 
Understand that this life has a great purpose, we are learning about good and evil, first in the physical carnal sense.  For a few He is leading to understand the spiritual truth now in this life, but all will come to this knowledge eventually.

Ecc 1:13 ...it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

1Tim 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Now God does work all things (Eph 1:11), but you are the one who will experience these things.  It is your experiences that teaches you both good and evil and it is through these experiences that God builds character in us.  The world is filled with contrasts that we learn from, by living and doing and seeing these things, we gain a physical knowledge of them. 
At some point God will move us on to learning about the spiritual things, but first it is the physical (1Co 15:46).  So what I'm saying is these experiences that we are going through in this life are very important, indeed essential.  So it will avail you a great deal to seek His will (by study of His Word and prayer) and do it.
Here is an email that speaks about this.

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#character -------------

God is SPIRIT. God is interested ONLY in spiritual things. All this physical creation is not something that God takes great pleasure in--it is but a means to an end. Well, what does He want then? He wants CHILDREN! SPIRITUAL Sons and Daughters in HIS VERY IMAGE!

But, how does He get them? Create them? Yes, CREATE them. But how does He create them. Instantly? No. To be in the IMAGE of God means that we will have the very same CHARACTER AND LOVE of God. Character and Love cannot be created instantly; it can only be developed over a period of time under severe pressure and duress.  And so God creates severe pressure and duress, which produces GODLY CHARACTER.  Imagine creating "patience," INSTANTLY?  Why the very thought is self-contradicting. Patience by its very nature means that something must be WAITED FOR even though it is desired NOW.

God knows what He is doing. Now then, there is a second part to all this. We ourselves would never ever really appreciate the qualities of character, virtue, and love, that we will possess if we did not have to "sweat blood" to get them. There is no virtue that you can name that is not the result of overcoming some form of evil.  And so this physical, human, temporal existence is as beneficial for US, and it is to GOD.

Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

God be with you,

Ray
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 03:28:52 PM by Kat »
Logged

Falgn0n

  • Guest
Re: Faith
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2008, 06:01:22 AM »

So, basically what you guys are sayin is: "Yup, you're right - there is nothing you can do about it."

Everything is going to play out exactly has God has planned it, and in the end the end it will have been for a purpose, though I see it or not, realise it or not, believe it or not. Whatever His purpose is, I can get glimpses of it from the scriptures:
1. Faith
2. Hope
3. Love
4. Godly character (even if only at the end of the LOF experience, after He brings about repentance in me)
5. Knowledge of both Good and Evil (and their effects on me)
6. His purposes with me (and everybody else) are "eternal/spiritual" in nature, and have literally nothing whatsoever to do with the temporal (temporary) experiences now.

So then, the answer to my original question would be as follows:

"No, there is not the principle of "applying" faith and/or prayer to a situation to bring about a desired result.
Faith has an entirely different nature and purpose than that, ie: to provide Strength and hope to hang on in spite of the difficulties until God completes the work He began and fulfills the purpose he intended."


Thank you all so much for you replies
[move]Falgn0n
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Faith
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2008, 11:22:05 AM »


Hi FalgnOn,

Quote
So then, the answer to my original question would be as follows:

"No, there is not the principle of "applying" faith and/or prayer to a situation to bring about a desired result.
Faith has an entirely different nature and purpose than that, ie: to provide Strength and hope to hang on in spite of the difficulties until God completes the work He began and fulfills the purpose he intended."

That is true, but there is much more to it.  When you are given the gift of grace, which is divine influence from God upon our hearts.  This grace motivates us and we have a great desire to serve and please God.  It's not "just hanging on in spite" of everything, but to love learning and doing the will of God.
Here is a few excerpts from the June Bible Study, which is a really good study on 'Saved By Grace Thru Faith.'  I think it will be helpful.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.0.html -------

Christ says if you call Me Lord and Master, if you believe that, that’s faith…believing.  If you believe that I am your Lord and Master, why don’t you do what I say?  You see that?  Faith is doing.
v
v
There is one other aspect to this thing of grace.  We saw it a little bit in Hebrews 3:12 that says, “… an evil heart of unbelief…”  Now you all understand that in the Bible when it talks about believe, that’s the verb.  Faith is the noun.  Faith and believe are the same Greek word, they’re the same.  What is faith?  It means to believe.  If you believe, you have what?  Faith.  They are both the same word, one is a noun, one is a verb, that’s the only difference. 
v
v
Well guess what?  Grace is a gift, but it’s got to be USED.  Listen when something influences something, that means it does something.  If you are inspired about something, you either think or write or do something, that’s the proof of the inspiration.  So if something influences you it makes you think, say, do, work or something, are there is no influence.  We just read that faith is divine influence upon the heart and that grace teaches us, the same that judging chastens us.  It’s the same Greek word.  It’s interesting it says in Eph. 2:8, “for we are saved by grace….”  Well that’s great, that’s wonderful (period).  No, no period, comma, “….THROUGH FAITH.”   Well shucks, we’re saved by grace….through faith, okay.  Well what does that mean?  ‘Through’ is a channel.
v
That’s the way grace and faith is.  Grace is this influence, but faith is the channel and a channel always does something, it channels something - shows motion - shows a destination.  So there’s a destination to being divinely influence by God on your heart.  That’s the grace and that’s free, it’s a gift.  But it doesn’t mean there is nothing to be done.  It’s like my wife’s exercise bike, it’s a gift, it’s free, but it’s meant to be used, you see.

So faith is the channel and faith is believing.  So you just have to believe, that’s something in your mind, that’s simple enough.  I accept your free gift to save me and I believe it, that’s it, good, all done.  No, not quite.  Because we read, “ The sum of Your word is truth…” (Psalms 119: 160(CLV).  You have to put it all together.

In Luke 6: 46 Christ says, “Why call you Me Lord, Lord.”  Listen, that’s faith.  If you call Him Lord, it means you believe He’s Lord, right, that’s faith.  So He says, why do you pretend to have faith in Me, by calling Me Lord, but you don’t do what I say?  See it’s a false faith, “…you do not do what I say.”  It is a contradiction to say, you have faith and you don’t do anything.  Notice the rest of this verse in Ephesians.

Eph 2:8  for by grace (a gratuitous gift - divine influence upon the heart) are you saved through faith(believing and doing God‘s will); and that (faith) not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
v. 9  not of (our) works, less any man should boast (you boast when you do your own works).
v. 10  For we are HIS workmanship (His achievement - His works),

Do you get that?  Where it says “not of works,” but “for good works”   Wait a minute is that a contradiction?  No, “not of (our) works” but “for (His) good works.”  There are works, they’re just not ours.  But we are of His workmanship.  Workmanship has the word ‘work.’  The Concordant translates it ‘achievement.’  When you want to achieve something it takes work.  Who’s doing the work here?  God is doing the work.  What is that work?  Divine influence upon the heart and then you do things. 

Eph 2:10  “… created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God has afore ordained that we should walk in them.”

So there are works.

Rom 8:28  “And we know that God WORKS all (things), together for the good…”  Verse 29 “….predestined us to be conformed into the image of His Son.”

That is the whole thing.  What is the purpose of works?  To be conformed into the image of His Son.  What image is that?  The image of God.  So what is it that God is creating humanity in?  His image.  Was it completed?  No, it was not good, it was not so.  But it will be one day.  One day it will be so and it will be good.  God is changing the carnal physical human mind into His spiritual divine mind.
------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 12:32:29 PM by Kat »
Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Faith
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2008, 12:24:32 PM »

Hi FalgnOn,

What I have come to realize is that prayer does not (and is not intended to) align God's will to our desires but to align our desires to God's will.

We have promises and assurances throughout the scriptures that He will provide for us as we seek Him and also admonishments about worrying about what tomorrow might bring.

If we become anxious over what might or could happen we are prone to be unprepared to faithfully handle what is right at hand at the present, we can't turn back the clock to "fix" yesterday, we can't control what may happen in the future, we can only live the moment in faith.

Peace,

Joe
 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2008, 12:37:17 PM by hillsbororiver »
Logged

Falgn0n

  • Guest
Re: Faith
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2008, 05:45:31 AM »

Thanks again you guys ... I do have a much better handle on just what faith is, exactly, now.
Logged

Heidi

  • Guest
Re: Faith
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2008, 09:33:56 AM »

1Cor 15:28  When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things in subjection under Him, that God may be all in all.

Hi there Falg0n,

When I read the above quote to Kat's post I suddenly saw that even Jesus is subject to the same....meaning that His life has been predestined and purposed right from the start and nothing that He did or said could have happened otherwise....yet...He still prayed to His Father every day.

That to me is a key to understanding whether to pray or not to pray...if we pray, let Thy will be done, not my will....your prayer will always be answered!

And I don't think that Christ had the same though process as what you are having, He also did not have any say in the outcome, and yet He said, I did not come to do my will but the will of  my Father....He was happy with doing just that.

Just my two cents worth

Heidi

PS remember, just was Christ was, so are we in the world.  Do not get discouraged but rejoice in the Lord!

Logged

Falgn0n

  • Guest
Re: Faith
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2008, 11:47:29 AM »

Yeah, Heidi, I know what you mean.

I was reminded just now of a whole "stage" that I went through during my "exodus" from the charismatic church. (for a looong time I had had doubts and unanswered questions about alot of things, beginning with the issue of tithing and carrying on all the way to the question why does all the stuff the preachers claim should happen simply never happen...) but during this particular stage I was having trouble specifically in this area of "faith" and giving.  the principle was "sowing and reaping" and it was claimed that if you had in your heart what you believed to be a promise from God regarding an "unbelieving husband" or a medical condition or financial situation or whatever, then God would direct you to perform some or other 'act of faith' which would then begin to 'unlock' the answer to that particular prayer.... well - it simply never happened.  We were told that "Elijah was a man just like us and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain and it didnt" and "fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much" and all this stuff .... but it simply never worked. Then they would placate you by saying that "sometimes the answer is 'wait' and sometimes the answer is 'no'" and eventually i began to suspect that it was all jazz anyway. I began to cry out to God, even scream at Him at times, for understanding.

And yet, all along, there are these various scriptures telling to "ask and you shall receive" "it will be unto you in accordance with your faith" "the fervent prayer of a righteous man..." etc etc... - so I was just curious to discover the understanding that some of you have about these things - we are continually admonished in scripture to do this or dont do that, ask and pray and seek and change your heart and choose this or that... when all along we simply dont have the power to do any of those things anyway, so it does seem kind of pointless to have all the commandments and and encouragements about how to be and what to do  - such as drink but don't get drunk, don't be angry without cause,

I eventually began to realise that Prayer is nothing more or less than the medium and channel through which God draws us closer to Himself - it is the method by which relationship takes place with God, and that's all it is. God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

We have needs that drive us to prayer for the meeting of those needs and in the process we discover the heart of God surrounding the issue we at first came to Him in prayer about. We discover Him and Who He Is, and what He is, I have not yet, NOT ONE TIME received a direct answer to a specific prayer, and yet, somehow - things have always had a way of working themselves out, not always for the better (at least not from my very limited and narrow perspective), but in a way that allows my family to go on and not be utterly destroyed by the circumstances that we have had to battle through to survive.

And i also finally discovered the meaning of "Pray continually"

Which, I suppose, is the answer to the unvoiced question that was integrated into my reason behind starting this thread - lol.

I have been a church-going / religious type my entire life - ideas and theologies are built into me deeper than my bone marrow - since discovering Bible-Truths.com, I find my ENTIRE BELIEF SYSTEM SHATTERED and being steadily rebuilt from the ground up.... Casting Down Imaginations, i guess, hehehe

I have one more question, though I think it must belong to a new thread, if not to a different area of the forum entirely (ie: "Off Topic"),
and the question is this .... is there anywhere in the world (and maybe, with a little luck, here in South Africa) a community of some kind that shares these beliefs other than bible-truths.com / forums.bible-truths.com? If anyone knows of any - I would love to hear about them ;)

Falgn0n
Logged

AK4

  • Guest
Re: Faith
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2008, 02:07:27 PM »

Quote
And yet, all along, there are these various scriptures telling to "ask and you shall receive" "it will be unto you in accordance with your faith" "the fervent prayer of a righteous man..." etc etc... - so I was just curious to discover the understanding that some of you have about these things - we are continually admonished in scripture to do this or dont do that, ask and pray and seek and change your heart and choose this or that... when all along we simply dont have the power to do any of those things anyway, so it does seem kind of pointless to have all the commandments and and encouragements about how to be and what to do  - such as drink but don't get drunk, don't be angry without cause,


Hi falgnon,

This alluded to a thread i wanted to start with the title "Does God answer your prayers".  I dont know about you, but for me almost every prayer i have asked for in Jesus name, in accordance to His will and not mine, whenever He may bring this to me, has come to be.  I accepted that if i had to go through a rough tribulation to get it, I'll do it because what i wanted most was more and more knowledge of Him and His spirit superabounding in me.

I'm a simple person.  I dont have a want really for anything in this world except for 3 things. 
1. Superabounding knowledge and understanding of Him and His spirit superabounding in me.
2. Custody of my kids
3.  I cant remember anymore, but i believe i have already recieved this.

Since God when i first starting to get drug by God to come close to him things got real rough.  I lost faith for about a month or two and thought i would give God another chance. (the nerve of me there) Since then God has delivered in his own time more and more of what i have been praying for and believe ive been paying for it, but i rejoice in it all and ask for more if it can bring me even closer to Him.  Once God really started opening my eyes after coming to BT, man i tell you, more and more knowledge keeps coming.

Right now though, i am at a point were i asked God to hold up please i cant take anymore right now.  Can You give me a short break?  And right now and, God willing,  a little while longer i am getting a break.

Praise Jesus.  I thank Him every chance He puts the thought in my mind that he answers prayers and not just mine but yours too.  Maybe you just havent noticed or maybe your are not seeing the process you are going to reach that prayer you requested.  Looking back i notice the steps that He was putting me through to get to what i have asked for.

Oh i remember #3 now.  Never let lose the knowledge, hope and faith that You gave me.  Thiswould be the most devastating thing to me.

In Jesus

Anthony
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.068 seconds with 27 queries.