> General Discussions
John 1:1-5
Kat:
Hi Roy,
I follow you right up to this statement, "When the Father gives birth or begats the Son. The Son is God the Creator, the beginning of creation. Here we have the beginning of creation and it's what the superior against the word beginning in (Rev.3:14) means. The Creator/God is the First Fruit of the beginning not a created being."
So the Son - Jesus Christ - Creator of the universe did come out of the Father, but are you saying that the Father did not create Him?
As for the verse in Micah 5,
Mic 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From everlasting."
There are other verses that speak the the coming Messiah as if it were the Father speaking.
Deu 18:18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
v. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.
1Sa 2:35 Then I will raise up for Myself a faithful priest who shall do according to what is in My heart and in My mind. I will build him a sure house, and he shall walk before My anointed forever.
The God we always heard from in the OT was Jehovah, who became Jesus of the NT, He is the spokesman of the Father as no one has ever heard the Father's voice.
John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
I believe Jesus Christ always spoke what the Father commanded in the OT as Jehovah and in the NT as Jesus Christ, as in says in Mal 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change;"
We have a Scripture in the NT that appear as the Father spoke too.
Mat 17:5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!"
We know that this was not the Father speaking either. Here is an email on this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5374.0.html ---
Dear Mark:
Notice that it was "a" voice, not the Father's voice. God has many millions of messengers (erroneously called "angels" in Scripture). A messenger delivers messages. These particular message was that "This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased, hear ye Him." The messenger ("a voice") delivered the message. Simple, huh?
God be with you,
Ray
-------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: Roy Monis UK on August 16, 2008, 02:46:45 PM ---
If you must insist how do you address this verse?
“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.” (Micah 5:2). How can a created being have existed eternally?
--- End quote ---
"If you must insist how do you address this verse?"
Bad translation.
Hi Roy,
Here it is in Rotherham's;
Micah 5:2 Thou therefore Bethlehem Ephrathah, though little to be among the thousands of Judah, Out of thee shall Mine come forth, to be ruler in Israel, Whose coming forth have been from of old, from the days of age-past time.
Kat provided some compelling evidence from Ray's "Trinity" paper as well as email but the following article should also be of some help.
http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm
His Peace to you,
Joe
AK4:
Hi Roy,
I will try to honor your request, but before i go any further i need to ask you some questions.
--- Quote ---This proves that Jesus the man was created but Jesus the Word whom we worship and follow was Born of God and as such is God in His own right and not part of the creation, rather the CREATOR.
--- End quote ---
and on his thigh is written The Word of God. Was the Word born at the same time Jesus was
created? We all know Jesus is the world,
Joh 1:14 AndG2532 theG3588 WordG3056 was madeG1096 flesh,G4561 andG2532 dweltG4637 amongG1722 us,G2254 (andG2532 we beheldG2300 hisG846 glory,G1391 the gloryG1391 asG5613 of the only begottenG3439 ofG3844 the Father,)G3962 fullG4134 of graceG5485 andG2532 truth.G225
The same G3056 is in Jn 1.
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
So are you saying when God came up with the Thought (the Word)--G3056, this Thought was not created but rather born, by inclination of coming in to the mind of The Father. Then this Thought (Word) started creating and that that thought was not created?
So are you basically saying the Father instantly begot the Thought (the Word) and didnt have to question his thought and then started creating?----whoa i see your point with this question.
I walked away for a while and thought on this more. I see what your are basically saying Roy.
Basically its like this. Can God come up with a thought without a cause. Of course, He's God. The Father does have free will right? And If this was the case then yes, the Word could be seperate from the creation. Think about it. God the Father had no reason/cause to do anything, but in a instant He came up with the Thought and then this Thought starts following through on what came to God's mind.
On the other hand, Did the Father have a reason/cause to want to create anything? In one of Ray's emails on the BT site he states that God is lonely (no scripture comes to mind of why God came up with this Thought/Word). If this is the case or if any other thing caused God to even come up with the Thought then this Thought/Word was created. Think about it.
Im trying not to think about it in a human way and of course our thoughts are not His thoughts.
So the question is why God created anything and even why this Thought came to His my mind?
Roy, as you are, i am also. I want to know the full truth. I believe if we know why the Word was even born/begotten/ or created we will have what we are looking for.
In Jesus,
Anthony
OBrenda:
Forgive my simple mind. This is very interesting and possibly to deep for me, but I can't see the question clearly ???
Is it what is the difference between, created & begotton?
We all have come into this world through natural conception.? (except Jesus)
Haven't we all been predestined by God for his purpose prior to our natural birth?
...
If I have a thought/idea....I want to paint a picture.
Doesn't that creation flow through that thought/idea?
I'm a little lost here, can someone throw me a fish net, and reel me in?
Brenda
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on August 16, 2008, 03:43:16 PM ---
--- Quote from: Roy Monis UK on August 16, 2008, 02:46:45 PM ---
If you must insist how do you address this verse?
“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.” (Micah 5:2). How can a created being have existed eternally?
--- End quote ---
"If you must insist how do you address this verse?"
Bad translation.
Hi Roy,
Here it is in Rotherham's;
Micah 5:2 Thou therefore Bethlehem Ephrathah, though little to be among the thousands of Judah, Out of thee shall Mine come forth, to be ruler in Israel, Whose coming forth have been from of old, from the days of age-past time.
Kat provided some compelling evidence from Ray's "Trinity" paper as well as email but the following article should also be of some help.
http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm
His Peace to you,
Joe
--- End quote ---
#########
Hi! Joe
I don't have a Rotherham's Bible but I do have a KJV, NASV, Interlinear and a concordance and they all render it as eternity, and I can't see any difference in the age-past time translation. This means an age with no time barrier or timeless, eternal.
After being alerted to it by Samson I have now read Ray's paper on the Trinity and it is as you say overwhelming evidence against the Trinity farce which I never believed in in the first place and that is the reason why I didn't bother to read it earlier. But Ray does not show a great deal of evidence on the creation of Christ.
So it hasn't helped I'm sorry to say, but I appreciate your input.
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version