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Author Topic: John 1:1-5  (Read 32000 times)

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Roy Monis

  • Guest
Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2008, 04:52:51 PM »


Hi Roy,

I follow you right up to this statement, "When the Father gives birth or begats the Son. The Son is God the Creator, the beginning of creation. Here we have the beginning of creation and it's what the superior against the word beginning in (Rev.3:14) means. The Creator/God is the First Fruit of the beginning not a created being."

So the Son - Jesus Christ - Creator of the universe did come out of the Father, but are you saying that the Father did not create Him? 
As for the verse in Micah 5,

Mic 5:2  "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
       Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
       Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
       The One to be Ruler in Israel,
       Whose goings forth are from of old,
       From everlasting."

There are other verses that speak the the coming Messiah as if it were the Father speaking.

Deu 18:18  I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
v. 19  And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.

1Sa 2:35  Then I will raise up for Myself a faithful priest who shall do according to what is in My heart and in My mind. I will build him a sure house, and he shall walk before My anointed forever.

The God we always heard from in the OT was Jehovah, who became Jesus of the NT, He is the spokesman of the Father as no one has ever heard the Father's voice.

John 5:37  And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

John 12:49  For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.

I believe Jesus Christ always spoke what the Father commanded in the OT as Jehovah and in the NT as Jesus Christ, as in says in Mal 3:6  "For I am the LORD, I do not change;"

We have a Scripture in the NT that appear as the Father spoke too.

Mat 17:5  While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!"

We know that this was not the Father speaking either.  Here is an email on this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5374.0.html ---

Dear Mark:
Notice that it was "a" voice, not the Father's voice. God has many millions of messengers (erroneously called "angels" in Scripture). A messenger delivers messages. These particular message was that "This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased, hear ye Him."  The messenger ("a voice") delivered the message.  Simple, huh?
God be with you,
Ray
-------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat




Hi! Kath

What I'm saying is that Jesus Christ was in the bosom of the Father, like the fetus of a human child in the mother, right from the beginning. But unlike the fetus in the human mother which carries the character traits of both the mother and father. In the case of Christ in the Father, the Fetus/Son is the snapshot mirror image or identical image of the Father carrying all the same character traits as the Father, “I and the Father are one.”   (Jn.10:30) including His power and authority but subject to the Father as He Himself admits; “You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." (Jn.14:28).

Now when the Father decided to start creation, He gave birth to (brought forth, begotten) His Son/Christ, Son of God, God and commissioned Him with full power and authority to be the CREATOR/GOD in the beginning to do His Father's creation work. This Creator/God is the Word that was impregnated into Mary by the Holy Spirit of the Father and became flesh/ Jesus Christ, Son of God. "For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him And He shall be a Son to Me”? (Heb.1:5).

Only the legitimate Son/Christ born of Father and commissioned by Him to create, THE CREATOR, is worthy of worship but to worship a created/Christ is to worship the creation and not the Creator.

So to answer your question, yes, I am saying that Jesus Christ is the legitimately Begotten/Born Son of God and not a created being. I'm only deducing this by using Ray's very own teaching; Scripture verify Scripture and spiritual verify spiritual and can't see that I'm doing anything wrong. I had no idea that there could be any other interpretation to Jesus Christ other than the one I've given here. I admire and applaud all Ray's teachings and am deeply indebted to him for enlightening me on the True Gospel of Jesus Christ, salvation for all mankind and the absurdity of the notion of a free will, plus all his teachings which are truly inspired and will take me my lifetime to understand and absorb. God bless him and I pray to God for his healing.

God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
 
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2008, 05:16:56 PM »


Hi Roy,

Here is the Scripture about we should not worship the creation.

Rom 1:25  who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

But in this verse that says we should not worship the creation, we have an exception to what was just spoken before "rather than the Creator."  So if this is talking about Christ He would be excluded by that statement "rather than the Creator."

We know He existed before He was begotten in Mary.  But was He created or eternally with the Father?  I'm not sure we understand about that yet, but here is an excerpt from WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER? from the Nashville Conference 2007.  This will give you a little more to think about  :)

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html -----

1Tim 6:13  I charge thee in the sight of God(so who is the subject here - God), who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession;
v. 14  that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
v. 5  which in its own times He shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Well you say that’s got to be talking about Jesus Christ.  Well maybe not.  I mean God is everything that Jesus Christ is too, you know.  Who is the Savior of the world?  Jesus Christ.  God is the Savior of the world!  Yes Jesus Christ is the channel through who it comes.  But God almighty is the Savior of the world.  He’s also the Creator.  We are actually going to find out, who actually did the creating?  Christ.  But who is the Creator?  God the Father.  But we are going to see it specifically, in detail.  
So then it says;

1Tim 6:15  “which in its own times He shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
v. 16  who only hath immortality…”
I always thought that was speaking about Christ.  But I’m thinking now, no, He’s talking about God.  God only has immortality;
v. 16 “… dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see…”
Isn’t this talking about God, the Father?  Well what does it matter?  
Well here’s the thing.  Where does it say if somebody is able to have the title God, that you have to be eternal for that?  I don’t know of any.  

There is no doubt about it Jesus Christ now has immortality, that means He can’t die.  But we are talking about a time when God ‘only’ had immortality.  And where did Christ say He got His life?  He got it from the Father (John 5:26).  
v
v
It says when Jesus was raised, He was raised a living Spirit (1Cor 15: 45).  Was He a living Spirit before that?  I don’t know.  I tried to find a scripture in the OT (the OT is big), that said ‘God is spirit,’ and I couldn’t find one, you know about the OT God.  In the NT Jesus Christ said of His Father.
 John 4: 21 “…the hour cometh, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father.”
v. 22  “Ye worship that which ye know not: we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.”
v. 23  “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth…”

God is spirit.  We have a statement like that in the NT.  We don’t have one like that in the OT, at lease I can’t find one.
---------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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OBrenda

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2008, 05:32:44 PM »

Thanks Kat....

That was really helpful to me!

Brenda
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AK4

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2008, 09:32:20 AM »

Quote
That is what i think Roy is saying the difference in begotten and created.  And looking at what strong's has put for the Logos, i can see what Roy is saying.  Has anyone found a scripture where it mentions why God wanted to create?  Why he even came up with the thought, or desire to?

I think i found part of the answer.  This verse could possible be it, although alot of translations have pleasure translated Will.

Revelation 4   
4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. 

I dont think this verse i directly referring to God the Father though.

In Jesus,

Anthony
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Roy Monis

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2008, 12:33:35 PM »

Hi! Kathy

Your quote; "But in this verse that says we should not worship the creation, we have an exception to what was just spoken before "rather than the Creator."  So if this is talking about Christ He would be excluded by that statement "rather than the Creator." We know He existed before He was begotten in Mary.  But was He created or eternally with the Father? "

Ages before Jesus was Begotten of Mary we are told that a body was prepared for Him in readiness in accord to the Father's predestined will. "Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me; In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure. “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) To do Your will, O God.’ (Heb.10:5-7). The Word has volunteered to do the Father's will.

Now we have this verse; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3). This tells us that the Word was from the very beginning with God, and it also tells us that the Word was God and that all things came into being through Him the Word/God.

Now this may appear to indicate that we are talking about two Gods whereas we know that there is only the ONE GOD and Father. But this Scripture explains this; "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (Jn.1:18). So the Word is in the bosom of the Father, like a fetus in a woman's womb. Still only ONE GOD. This Word in the bosom of the Father is the identical snapshot image of the Father with all His character traits. Unlike the human where two totally different individuals being involved, the child would have the character traits of both parents and would be unique in genetic make up. In the case of the Father there are no two beings involved just the Father. 

In the Father/Son relationship they have identical character traits but the Son/Word by virtue of being the Son is subject to the will of the Father out of Whom all power and energy, including the Word/Son comes forth. That is Begotten/Born but not created. The Word/Son is the legitimate Creator God, Son of the Father God. "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him." (1Jn.5:1). Not created by Him but Born of Him.

When Mary conceives there is no human involvement, "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit."  (Matt.1:18). The Holy Spirit of the Father implanted the Word in the body of Jesus, that had been prepared for Him, into Mary. The result was Jesus Christ the legitimate Word/Son of God. The CREATOR of all things and not a created being. To worship a created being is to worship part of the creation and not the true Creator.

God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ.  I hope this helps.

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

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AK4

  • Guest
Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2008, 02:11:47 PM »

HI Roy

Very nicely explained.  So i have another question.  When i was in with the teachings of Herbert Armstrong he wrote a paper that basically said that we shouldnt pray to Jesus but we are supposed to pray to the Father through Jesus.  So is this basically what you (scriptures you quoted) are saying too?

Anthony
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mharrell08

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2008, 02:15:17 PM »

Hello Roy,

Are you saying through this thread that Jesus existed eternally 'in the bosom' of the Father? You don't believe begotten and created are the same?

And also, are you saying if we refer to Jesus as the Father's creation, that we cannot/should not worship the creation as we should only worship the Creator?

Looking through these posts and the scriptures everyone has posted, I still don't see the huge difference between begotten & created. Either way, the Father brought the Son, Jesus, into existence. Jesus stated He 'came out of the Father'. The Father comes out of no one. Jesus was able to die, the Father has always been immortal. Etc...

Also you stated that from John 1:1-5 this scripture means "This can only mean that the Son was in the bosom of the Father from the very beginning. In which case the Son has the identical character traits bestowed on Him by the Father as the Father is ONE GOD."

But see as you stated, the Son was at the very beginning...but the Father has no beginning. Whether begotton or created, Jesus came out of the Father and then brought everything else into existence. So Jesus had a beginning and the Father does not have a beginning.

In a nutshell, I still don't completely understand the issue. Whether begotton or created, Jesus came out of the Father and has a beginning. I don't understand how being either created or begotten changes anything about Christ.

For me, I wouldn't have a problem if people referred to Jesus as begotton only or created only. It doesn't seem edifying to refer to Him as only one or the other. Kind of a non-issue to me but to each his own.


Thanks,

Marques
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AK4

  • Guest
Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2008, 08:08:27 PM »

Quote
Very nicely explained.  So i have another question.  When i was in with the teachings of Herbert Armstrong he wrote a paper that basically said that we shouldnt pray to Jesus but we are supposed to pray to the Father through Jesus.  So is this basically what you (scriptures you quoted) are saying too?

I've been searching the scriptures and i cant find one where it says praise Jesus (as part of the creation).

Mt 11:25 - Show Context
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Mt 21:16 - Show Context
"Do you hear what these children are saying?" they asked him. "Yes," replied Jesus, "have you never read, "'From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise'?"

Lu 10:21 - Show Context
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

2Co 1:3 - Show Context
Praise be to the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

Eph 1:3 - Show Context
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Php 1:11 - Show Context
filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ--to the glory and praise of God.

Heb 13:15 - Show Context
Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise--the fruit of lips that confess his name.

1Pe 1:3 - Show Context
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 


These I'm not sure on.  They could be referring to the Father...

1Ch 16:25 - Show Context
For great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods.

Ps 96:4 - Show Context
For great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods.

Some translations translate Lord, Jehovah very few has the "he" capitalized (i dont know why).

Roy i see the difference you (scriptures) are saying.

John 1:11-14
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

We will also be born of God.  We are created now, but we will all be born again.

Joh 3:3 - Show Context
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Joh 3:7 - Show Context
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

1Pe 1:23 - Show Context
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God

Strong's Number:   1080 
Original Word Word Origin
gennavw from a variation of (1085)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Gennao 1:665,114
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ghen-nah'-o      Verb 
 
 Definition
of men who fathered children
to be born
to be begotten
of women giving birth to children
metaph.
to engender, cause to arise, excite
in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
of God making Christ his son
of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work
 

Born/begotten or created.  Is it just semantics?  Im beginning to see that it aint.

May God open all our eyes to what he is saying in His Word in Jesus name,

Anthony

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2008, 08:19:15 PM »

As Ray has pointed out, it is axiomatic that for God to be Father, He must have (in this case) a Son.  

I agree with Marques that the words 'created', 'begotten', 'come out of' present no problem to me any more than 'justification', 'propitiation', 'redemption' present no problem--they are specific aspects (in the context of explaining) of the same thing.

The most telling verse in my understanding is in Hebrews.

Heb 1:1  God, having spoken in former times in fragmentary and varied fashion to our forefathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2  has in these last days spoken to us by a Son whom he appointed to be the heir of everything and through whom he also made the universe.
Heb 1:3  He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty
Heb 1:4  and became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is better than theirs.

Though the KJV and its followers translates the Greek as 'angels' rather than 'messengers', it seems very clear to me that the writer of Hebrews is speaking about the Prophets of old as 'messengers' because that's how he starts his thought.

Heb. 1:3 is the key, for me.  The writer makes three statements (underlined) concerning Christ before his sacrifice.  The third statement helps my understanding the most, because I cannot fathom the full meaning of the others.  "He holds everything together by his powerful word."  He is clearly Christ, the Creator.

It helps because it points out more clearly the WAY in which God interacts with the physical universe.  Surely He created it, but to 'sustain it' or 'hold it together' implies a continued 'interface' between God Who is Spirit and the physical, of which we are a part.  Clearly, it is Christ the Son who is the Creator, the Sustainer, and the 'holder together'.  He is the God who 'comes out of' the Father and HE and the Father are One.  For me, Christ is the interface of Spirit God with physical creation.

It's my personal belief that physical creation itself has much more of a connection with Spirit and much less a 'distinction from' than common understanding.  Heb. 1:3 gives evidence of this.  I am hoping that Ray's conference in Nashville and the materials that come out of that will either correct or strengthen my understanding.

I still maintain that words are not enough to fully comprehend God.  But they are what we have, and we would have precious little understanding without them.  His words are Truth.  We just need to know what they really MEAN.  I certainly don't claim to, and would be highly reluctant to worship a God who COULD be 'explained'.  



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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Roy Monis

  • Guest
Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2008, 09:31:59 AM »

As Ray has pointed out, it is axiomatic that for God to be Father, He must have (in this case) a Son. 

I agree with Marques that the words 'created', 'begotten', 'come out of' present no problem to me any more than 'justification', 'propitiation', 'redemption' present no problem--they are specific aspects (in the context of explaining) of the same thing.

The most telling verse in my understanding is in Hebrews.

Heb 1:1  God, having spoken in former times in fragmentary and varied fashion to our forefathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2  has in these last days spoken to us by a Son whom he appointed to be the heir of everything and through whom he also made the universe.
Heb 1:3  He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty
Heb 1:4  and became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is better than theirs.

Though the KJV and its followers translates the Greek as 'angels' rather than 'messengers', it seems very clear to me that the writer of Hebrews is speaking about the Prophets of old as 'messengers' because that's how he starts his thought.

Heb. 1:3 is the key, for me.  The writer makes three statements (underlined) concerning Christ before his sacrifice.  The third statement helps my understanding the most, because I cannot fathom the full meaning of the others.  "He holds everything together by his powerful word."  He is clearly Christ, the Creator.

It helps because it points out more clearly the WAY in which God interacts with the physical universe.  Surely He created it, but to 'sustain it' or 'hold it together' implies a continued 'interface' between God Who is Spirit and the physical, of which we are a part.  Clearly, it is Christ the Son who is the Creator, the Sustainer, and the 'holder together'.  He is the God who 'comes out of' the Father and HE and the Father are One.  For me, Christ is the interface of Spirit God with physical creation.

It's my personal belief that physical creation itself has much more of a connection with Spirit and much less a 'distinction from' than common understanding.  Heb. 1:3 gives evidence of this.  I am hoping that Ray's conference in Nashville and the materials that come out of that will either correct or strengthen my understanding.

I still maintain that words are not enough to fully comprehend God.  But they are what we have, and we would have precious little understanding without them.  His words are Truth.  We just need to know what they really MEAN.  I certainly don't claim to, and would be highly reluctant to worship a God who COULD be 'explained'. 






Hi! Brother Dave in Tenn

I agree with what you are saying;  "He holds everything together by his powerful word."
That is very understandable because we are told that He is the Word; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (1Jn.1:1-3). This is exactly what Paul is telling us in Heb.1:1-3.

There is only ONE God the Father, so how do we come to have two Gods, the Father God and the Son God?

A little lower down this mystery is revealed; "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."  (Jn.1:18). The Word/Son is in the bosom of the Father, a Fetus if you will, this being so it is still ONE God, the Father.

So where does the Word get His power from?

In human relations the child is the product of two individuals and as a consequence carries the genes of both parents. He/she is a totally independent being with a DNA of its very own, unique.

Now in the case of the Father Son relationship there is only one parent the Father, so the Son of necessity carries all the character traits of the Father. In short He is an identical snapshot image of the Father, which is what Paul is telling us in; "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made."  (Heb.1:3).

At the consummation we all hope to be sons and daughters of the Living God. But there will still only be the ONE GOD the FATHER in Whom are all things.

This how I see it, brother, but I don't quite understand your statement; "We just need to know what they really MEAN.  I certainly don't claim to, and would be highly reluctant to worship a God who COULD be 'explained'."  Maybe you'd like to enlighten me?

The only point I disagree with both you and Marques is on the meaning of the two words, Begotten and Created.
There is not much difference I agree in carnal, earthly terms but when we come to apply those words to God they become as different as apples and potatoes.

Let me explain my reasoning;

Begotten means, bringing forth, being born, giving birth to. All living creatures, including man, can produce and give birth to, but they cannot create. That is God's sole prerogative.
   
Created means, to make, to produce, to manufacture out of pure energy, which is Light which is the Father. Only God has the power to create.

Now let us take the word Begotten. If the Father gives birth/begets the Word/Christ, Christ will be the exact image of the Father with His power to do His Will, that is, to create all things. In short He is the Creator/God who rightly deserves our worship. " "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him."  (1Jn.5:1).

Now let us take the word Create. If the Father created the Word/Christ, and the Word created all things, then the Word would be a part of that creation. In short the Word would be a mere creature and we would be worshiping the creature and not the Creator/God which is idolatry and no different to the Hindu worshiping a cow or a golden calf.

JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION AND SINCERE BELIEF, BROTHER
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

PS.   All emphasis are mine.
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AK4

  • Guest
Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2008, 10:15:04 AM »

Quote
Let me explain my reasoning;

Begotten means, bringing forth, being born, giving birth to. All living creatures, including man, can produce and give birth to, but they cannot create. That is God's sole prerogative.
   
Created means, to make, to produce, to manufacture out of pure energy, which is Light which is the Father. Only God has the power to create.

Now let us take the word Begotten. If the Father gives birth/begets the Word/Christ, Christ will be the exact image of the Father with His power to do His Will, that is, to create all things. In short He is the Creator/God who rightly deserves our worship. " "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him."  (1Jn.5:1).

Now let us take the word Create. If the Father created the Word/Christ, and the Word created all things, then the Word would be a part of that creation. In short the Word would be a mere creature and we would be worshiping the creature and not the Creator/God which is idolatry and no different to the Hindu worshiping a cow or a golden calf.

Good post Roy. 

Quote
I still maintain that words are not enough to fully comprehend God.  But they are what we have, and we would have precious little understanding without them.  His words are Truth.  We just need to know what they really MEAN.  I certainly don't claim to, and would be highly reluctant to worship a God who COULD be 'explained'. 


Dave, I agree its hard to fully comprehend God.  When Roy first started this thread I was saying what everyone hear is saying---created begotten is the same thing.  But I started searching through the bible (mainly the NT) to find anywhere where it says to worship Christ/Jesus.  Everything i found was basically saying "praise God the Father of Jesus"  or "for Jesus" or something of the like.  This made me really think on what Roy posted and that ther must be a difference between the words created and begotten.  Just look at what i had posted earlier.

If you or someone can find a verse that i may have overlooked please let me know. 

In Jesus

Anthony
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Roy Monis

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2008, 10:31:02 AM »

Quote
Very nicely explained.  So i have another question.  When i was in with the teachings of Herbert Armstrong he wrote a paper that basically said that we shouldnt pray to Jesus but we are supposed to pray to the Father through Jesus.  So is this basically what you (scriptures you quoted) are saying too?

I've been searching the scriptures and i cant find one where it says praise Jesus (as part of the creation).

Mt 11:25 - Show Context
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Mt 21:16 - Show Context
"Do you hear what these children are saying?" they asked him. "Yes," replied Jesus, "have you never read, "'From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise'?"

Lu 10:21 - Show Context
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

2Co 1:3 - Show Context
Praise be to the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

Eph 1:3 - Show Context
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Php 1:11 - Show Context
filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ--to the glory and praise of God.

Heb 13:15 - Show Context
Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise--the fruit of lips that confess his name.

1Pe 1:3 - Show Context
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 


These I'm not sure on.  They could be referring to the Father...

1Ch 16:25 - Show Context
For great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods.

Ps 96:4 - Show Context
For great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods.

Some translations translate Lord, Jehovah very few has the "he" capitalized (i dont know why).

Roy i see the difference you (scriptures) are saying.

John 1:11-14
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

We will also be born of God.  We are created now, but we will all be born again.

Joh 3:3 - Show Context
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Joh 3:7 - Show Context
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

1Pe 1:23 - Show Context
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God

Strong's Number:   1080 
Original Word Word Origin
gennavw from a variation of (1085)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Gennao 1:665,114
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ghen-nah'-o      Verb 
 
 Definition
of men who fathered children
to be born
to be begotten
of women giving birth to children
metaph.
to engender, cause to arise, excite
in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
of God making Christ his son
of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work
 

Born/begotten or created.  Is it just semantics?  Im beginning to see that it aint.

May God open all our eyes to what he is saying in His Word in Jesus name,

Anthony




Hi! Anthony

Your quote brother; "'ve been searching the scriptures and i cant find one where it says praise Jesus (as part of the creation)."

Ever since Samson dropped that bomb shell "Thank God for creating Jesus Christ", I have desperately searched to the best of my intellectual and inspirational ability to find one bit of information to verify it but to no avail as it just doesn't exist.

I can only express my opinion on your question, but please understand I am not a teacher nor am I qualified to act as one. Having said that, I too was with Mr Armstrong for a short time till I realized that he was hopelessly under bondage and came out. But regarding your question I have to agree with him on this as we have a Scripture to prove it; "Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." (2Cor.5:16-17).

But Jesus has told us something that delights the soul and I use it a lot: “In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full." (Jn.16:23-24). This tells me that I must pray to the Father, not Him, but make my request in His name.

I believe we are Begotten of God now brother through Christ our Lord. Your answer is right there in your very own quote; "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1Pet.1:3). 

These are not new teachings, Jesus said to Nicodemus; “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"  (Jn.3:10-12).

I hope this helps.

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     




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AK4

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2008, 11:04:29 AM »

Thanks Roy for help opening my eyes.  I believe we all are striving/hunger for all the Truth in all matters not just some of it and posts like this is God sheading the scales off our eyes to be able to see It.

When i first read that paper from HA i was very skeptical and pondered on it for awhile.  Then when you brought it up here i was like "what a better time than now to find if HA was on this and no better place than here in BTF."

Thanks again. 

God bless,

Anthony

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Heidi

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2008, 11:17:57 AM »

Hi Roy and AK4,

I have been studying Ray's paper on The Father's will.....(THE FATHER'S WILL? . . . . . . . . . . . Mobile Conference 2006)

"Rev 3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

The beginning was the Word of God, what did God began with?  Jesus Christ, right?  The Word, that’s what God began with, Jesus Christ is the beginning.

In Gen. 1:1 it says, “In the beginning[ Heb: reshiyth - spec. Firstfruits] God [Heb: Elohim] created the heavens and the earth”
 
We read in 1 Cor 15:20  “But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the Firstfruit of those who slept.”

That Jesus Christ “became the Firstfruit of those who slept.”  Who is the Firstfurit?  JESUS CHRIST.

Where did Jesus come from:  John 7:29; John 13:3; John 9:42; John 16: 27-28; 1 John 4:9, 14.
 
Jesus was created by the Father; Heb 1:2; Rev 3:14.  Jesus Christ was created and than became the Creator of all.  So when you talk about Jesus Christ, you are talking about God.  But you are talking about the One who was begotten in the God family, and one who could be emptied and formed such as a man.

A couple of other points here.  Christ said to the Pharisees, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58).  He didn’t say I was, He said “I am.”  And what did He tell Moses?  Moses said who will I say sent me and He said tell,  “I AM THAT I AM” (Exo. 3:14), or I Am what I will be, is what the Hebrew indicates.
So Adam, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Jacob and the Hebrews, never knew God the Father, they knew Jesus Christ - Yahweh.  When they hung Christ on the cross, they crucified their own Creator."


So Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament.  He is the reason Elohim is plural, “and God said let US.”
So the Father is doing the creating, but it is done through His Son, Jesus Christ, His first born.  Now for scriptural proof, in Heb. 1:8 it says "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of the eons ...”  Now I know the Jehovah Witness and I’ve read all their stupid ways of trying to get around that verse, and it just won’t smoke.  It means what it says, God addresses Jesus Christ as “Thy throne, O God,” and the O is in there, it’s in the Greek and it’s back in the Hebrew where this verse is quoted from as well.


I hope this helps a bit.

Heidi
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mharrell08

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2008, 11:34:29 AM »


Now let us take the word Create. If the Father created the Word/Christ, and the Word created all things, then the Word would be a part of that creation. In short the Word would be a mere creature and we would be worshiping the creature and not the Creator/God which is idolatry and no different to the Hindu worshiping a cow or a golden calf.



Okay, so in a nutshell, this is what this entire thread was about right? You believe we should not refer to Christ as 'created' since you believe it would be idolatry. Instead, you believe that we should refer to Christ as 'begotten' only. Is that correct?

One thing though...either word you use, Christ did not exist until the Father either begotten him or created him. Or do you believe that he did exist always? I'm not trying to start an argument but to only get to the bottom of this subject.

One thing I thought of to back your point...in Hebrews 7, Paul (or whoever wrote it) stated that Levite in the loins of Abraham gave a tenth to Melchisedec. Kind of like how you stated begotten means. So in that way, Levite existed in Abraham so the same way Christ, being begotten, existed in the Father. Looking at it that way, I could see your point.

Am I on the right track?


Thanks,

Marques
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AK4

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2008, 11:44:49 AM »

Quote
Rev 3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God

Hi heidi,

I gotta look further into that verse because some translations dont have...

"These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God"


New International Version    
 
Revelation 3     Read This Chapter
3:14
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:  
3:15
I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!  


The Complete Jewish Bible    
 
Revelation 3     Read This Chapter
3:14
"To the angel of the Messianic Community in Laodicea, write: 'Here is the message from the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the Ruler of God's creation:  
3:15
"I know what you are doing: you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were either one or the other!  


GOD'S WORD    
 
Revelation 3     Read This Chapter
3:14
"To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: The amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the source of God's creation, says:  
3:15
I know what you have done, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or hot.  


Hebrew Names Version of World English Bible    
 
Revelation 3     Read This Chapter
3:14
"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amein, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:  
3:15
"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or hot.  


World English Bible    
 
Revelation 3     Read This Chapter
3:14
"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:  
3:15
"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or hot.  


We will have to look at the original greek scriptures for that.

Anthony
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AK4

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2008, 11:55:32 AM »

Sorry im at work so i cant delve into this to deep right now but here is was what the NAS greek lexicon has for beginning in this verse.

 Home > Lexicons > Greek > Arche
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

 Strong's Number:   746  Browse Lexicon 
Original Word Word Origin
arce from (756)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Arche 1:479,81
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ar-khay'      Noun Feminine 
 
 Definition
beginning, origin the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause the extremity of a thing
of the corners of a sail the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
of angels and demons 
   
 NAS Word Usage - Total: 56
beginning 38, corners 2, domain 1, elementary 1, elementary* 1, first 1, first preaching 1, principalities 1, rule 4, rulers 6
 
 NAS Verse Count 
Matthew 4
Mark 4
Luke 3
John 8
Acts 4
Romans 1
1 Corinthians 1
Ephesians 3
Philippians 1
Colossians 4
2 Thessalonians 1
Titus 1
Hebrews 6
2 Peter 1
1 John 7
2 John 2
Jude 1
Revelation 3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Total 55
 
And,


 Home > Lexicons > Greek > Archomai
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

 Strong's Number:   756  Browse Lexicon 
Original Word Word Origin
arcomai middle voice of (757) (through the implication of precedence)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Archomai 1:478,*
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ar'-khom-ahee      Verb 
 
 Definition
to be the first to do (anything), to begin to be chief, leader, ruler to begin, make a beginning 
   
 

 
 
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Roy Monis

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2008, 12:37:44 PM »

Hello Roy,

Are you saying through this thread that Jesus existed eternally 'in the bosom' of the Father? You don't believe begotten and created are the same?

And also, are you saying if we refer to Jesus as the Father's creation, that we cannot/should not worship the creation as we should only worship the Creator?

Looking through these posts and the scriptures everyone has posted, I still don't see the huge difference between begotten & created. Either way, the Father brought the Son, Jesus, into existence. Jesus stated He 'came out of the Father'. The Father comes out of no one. Jesus was able to die, the Father has always been immortal. Etc...

Also you stated that from John 1:1-5 this scripture means "This can only mean that the Son was in the bosom of the Father from the very beginning. In which case the Son has the identical character traits bestowed on Him by the Father as the Father is ONE GOD."

But see as you stated, the Son was at the very beginning...but the Father has no beginning. Whether begotton or created, Jesus came out of the Father and then brought everything else into existence. So Jesus had a beginning and the Father does not have a beginning.

In a nutshell, I still don't completely understand the issue. Whether begotton or created, Jesus came out of the Father and has a beginning. I don't understand how being either created or begotten changes anything about Christ.

For me, I wouldn't have a problem if people referred to Jesus as begotton only or created only. It doesn't seem edifying to refer to Him as only one or the other. Kind of a non-issue to me but to each his own.


Thanks,

Marques


Hi! Marques

Your quote; "Are you saying through this thread that Jesus existed eternally 'in the bosom' of the Father?"

No, not I brother, God is saying that; "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."  (Jn.1:18)

Your quote; "You don't believe begotten and created are the same?"

Yes, I most certainly don't believe that Begotten and Created have the same meaning, and more so when applied to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Let us take the carnal line first, Strong's Concordance;
1)..........Begotten in Hebrew:- Bring forth, give birth to, be born.  #4138, #3318, #3205
2)..........Begotten in Greek:- To be born, to give birth to, to bring forth, to hatch.   #4416, #3439, #1080, 313.
Now
1).........Created in Hebrew:- to create, to make, to create out of nothing, bring something into existence, only God 
            can create something out of nothing.      #1254
2).........Created in Greek:-  to create, to make, creator, only God can create, always the act of God.         #2936 

So from the carnal angle the two words come under totally different numbers with totally different meanings.

 Your quote; "And also, are you saying if we refer to Jesus as the Father's creation, that we cannot/should not worship the creation as we should only worship the Creator?"
                                     
Nowhere does it say that the Father creates anything, it is the Word that does all the creating. (Jn.1:3). He takes all power and authority of the Father and executes His Father's will. He is the Creator/God and only God is entitled to be worshiped and not a creature, a creation. The creature cannot create something out of nothing, that is the sole prerogative of God.

Your quote;    "But see as you stated, the Son was at the very beginning...but the Father has no beginning. Whether begotton or created, Jesus came out of the Father and then brought everything else into existence. So Jesus had a beginning and the Father does not have a beginning."

That is perfectly right, the Father had no beginning and has no end, likewise the Son who is in the bosom of the Father from the beginning has no beginning and no end, they are both eternal, the only difference being that the Son by virtue of being the Son is subject to the Father's Will; “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. (Jn.5:30).

Your quote; "For me, I wouldn't have a problem if people referred to Jesus as begotton only or created only. It doesn't seem edifying to refer to Him as only one or the other. Kind of a non-issue to me but to each his own."

The difference amounts to this, whether one chooses to worship his Creator/God or the Golden calf. The first is Begotten and the second has been created. There is absolutely nothing of me in this, it is all in God's Word as quoted.

I hope this helps brother.

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

   
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Roy Monis

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2008, 12:40:36 PM »

HI Roy

Very nicely explained.  So i have another question.  When i was in with the teachings of Herbert Armstrong he wrote a paper that basically said that we shouldnt pray to Jesus but we are supposed to pray to the Father through Jesus.  So is this basically what you (scriptures you quoted) are saying too?

Anthony

Hi! Anthony

Yes brother. All to the Father in Jesus' name.

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

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AK4

  • Guest
Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2008, 01:31:59 PM »

Strong's Number:   746  Browse Lexicon 
Original Word Word Origin
arce from (756)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Arche 1:479,81
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ar-khay'      Noun Feminine 
 
 Definition
beginning, origin the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause the extremity of a thing
of the corners of a sail the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
of angels and demons 

Home > Lexicons > Greek > Archomai
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

 Strong's Number:   756  Browse Lexicon 
Original Word Word Origin
arcomai middle voice of (757) (through the implication of precedence
)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Archomai 1:478,*
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ar'-khom-ahee      Verb 
 
 Definition
to be the first to do (anything), to begin to be chief, leader, ruler to begin, make a beginning 
   
Quote
"Rev 3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;


Looking at the definition and the root word of "beginning" in this verse, it is indicating rulership and authority. He is the beginning/origin/head of the creation and that makes him ruler.  Not the beginning of creation.

Here are some other ways this same word is used in scripture.

Tit 3:1   
Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed,

Ac 11:15   
"And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, just as He did upon us at the beginning. (origin)
Ac 26:4   
"So then, all Jews know my manner of life from my youth up, which from the beginning(origin) was spent among my own nation and at Jerusalem;
Ro 8:38   
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers
________________________________________
1Co 15:24   
then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
________________________________________
________________________________________

Col 1:18   
He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything.
Col 2:10   
and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
Col 2:15   
When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
________________________________________
Col 1:16   
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him.

Interesting that last part---all things have been created by Him and for Him.  Since He is the origin, the chief, the leader that by which anything begins to be, how could he be created. 

For by Him all things were created.

I think the KJV and its family of bibles didnt translate that well enough.

Just MHO

In Jesus,

Anthony
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