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John 1:1-5
AK4:
HI Roy
Very nicely explained. So i have another question. When i was in with the teachings of Herbert Armstrong he wrote a paper that basically said that we shouldnt pray to Jesus but we are supposed to pray to the Father through Jesus. So is this basically what you (scriptures you quoted) are saying too?
Anthony
mharrell08:
Hello Roy,
Are you saying through this thread that Jesus existed eternally 'in the bosom' of the Father? You don't believe begotten and created are the same?
And also, are you saying if we refer to Jesus as the Father's creation, that we cannot/should not worship the creation as we should only worship the Creator?
Looking through these posts and the scriptures everyone has posted, I still don't see the huge difference between begotten & created. Either way, the Father brought the Son, Jesus, into existence. Jesus stated He 'came out of the Father'. The Father comes out of no one. Jesus was able to die, the Father has always been immortal. Etc...
Also you stated that from John 1:1-5 this scripture means "This can only mean that the Son was in the bosom of the Father from the very beginning. In which case the Son has the identical character traits bestowed on Him by the Father as the Father is ONE GOD."
But see as you stated, the Son was at the very beginning...but the Father has no beginning. Whether begotton or created, Jesus came out of the Father and then brought everything else into existence. So Jesus had a beginning and the Father does not have a beginning.
In a nutshell, I still don't completely understand the issue. Whether begotton or created, Jesus came out of the Father and has a beginning. I don't understand how being either created or begotten changes anything about Christ.
For me, I wouldn't have a problem if people referred to Jesus as begotton only or created only. It doesn't seem edifying to refer to Him as only one or the other. Kind of a non-issue to me but to each his own.
Thanks,
Marques
AK4:
--- Quote ---Very nicely explained. So i have another question. When i was in with the teachings of Herbert Armstrong he wrote a paper that basically said that we shouldnt pray to Jesus but we are supposed to pray to the Father through Jesus. So is this basically what you (scriptures you quoted) are saying too?
--- End quote ---
I've been searching the scriptures and i cant find one where it says praise Jesus (as part of the creation).
Mt 11:25 - Show Context
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Mt 21:16 - Show Context
"Do you hear what these children are saying?" they asked him. "Yes," replied Jesus, "have you never read, "'From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise'?"
Lu 10:21 - Show Context
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
2Co 1:3 - Show Context
Praise be to the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,
Eph 1:3 - Show Context
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
Php 1:11 - Show Context
filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ--to the glory and praise of God.
Heb 13:15 - Show Context
Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise--the fruit of lips that confess his name.
1Pe 1:3 - Show Context
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
These I'm not sure on. They could be referring to the Father...
1Ch 16:25 - Show Context
For great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods.
Ps 96:4 - Show Context
For great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods.
Some translations translate Lord, Jehovah very few has the "he" capitalized (i dont know why).
Roy i see the difference you (scriptures) are saying.
John 1:11-14
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
We will also be born of God. We are created now, but we will all be born again.
Joh 3:3 - Show Context
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
Joh 3:7 - Show Context
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
1Pe 1:23 - Show Context
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God
Strong's Number: 1080
Original Word Word Origin
gennavw from a variation of (1085)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Gennao 1:665,114
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ghen-nah'-o Verb
Definition
of men who fathered children
to be born
to be begotten
of women giving birth to children
metaph.
to engender, cause to arise, excite
in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
of God making Christ his son
of God making men his sons through faith in Christ's work
Born/begotten or created. Is it just semantics? Im beginning to see that it aint.
May God open all our eyes to what he is saying in His Word in Jesus name,
Anthony
Dave in Tenn:
As Ray has pointed out, it is axiomatic that for God to be Father, He must have (in this case) a Son.
I agree with Marques that the words 'created', 'begotten', 'come out of' present no problem to me any more than 'justification', 'propitiation', 'redemption' present no problem--they are specific aspects (in the context of explaining) of the same thing.
The most telling verse in my understanding is in Hebrews.
Heb 1:1 God, having spoken in former times in fragmentary and varied fashion to our forefathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by a Son whom he appointed to be the heir of everything and through whom he also made the universe.
Heb 1:3 He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty
Heb 1:4 and became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is better than theirs.
Though the KJV and its followers translates the Greek as 'angels' rather than 'messengers', it seems very clear to me that the writer of Hebrews is speaking about the Prophets of old as 'messengers' because that's how he starts his thought.
Heb. 1:3 is the key, for me. The writer makes three statements (underlined) concerning Christ before his sacrifice. The third statement helps my understanding the most, because I cannot fathom the full meaning of the others. "He holds everything together by his powerful word." He is clearly Christ, the Creator.
It helps because it points out more clearly the WAY in which God interacts with the physical universe. Surely He created it, but to 'sustain it' or 'hold it together' implies a continued 'interface' between God Who is Spirit and the physical, of which we are a part. Clearly, it is Christ the Son who is the Creator, the Sustainer, and the 'holder together'. He is the God who 'comes out of' the Father and HE and the Father are One. For me, Christ is the interface of Spirit God with physical creation.
It's my personal belief that physical creation itself has much more of a connection with Spirit and much less a 'distinction from' than common understanding. Heb. 1:3 gives evidence of this. I am hoping that Ray's conference in Nashville and the materials that come out of that will either correct or strengthen my understanding.
I still maintain that words are not enough to fully comprehend God. But they are what we have, and we would have precious little understanding without them. His words are Truth. We just need to know what they really MEAN. I certainly don't claim to, and would be highly reluctant to worship a God who COULD be 'explained'.
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on August 20, 2008, 05:19:15 PM ---As Ray has pointed out, it is axiomatic that for God to be Father, He must have (in this case) a Son.
I agree with Marques that the words 'created', 'begotten', 'come out of' present no problem to me any more than 'justification', 'propitiation', 'redemption' present no problem--they are specific aspects (in the context of explaining) of the same thing.
The most telling verse in my understanding is in Hebrews.
Heb 1:1 God, having spoken in former times in fragmentary and varied fashion to our forefathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by a Son whom he appointed to be the heir of everything and through whom he also made the universe.
Heb 1:3 He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty
Heb 1:4 and became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is better than theirs.
Though the KJV and its followers translates the Greek as 'angels' rather than 'messengers', it seems very clear to me that the writer of Hebrews is speaking about the Prophets of old as 'messengers' because that's how he starts his thought.
Heb. 1:3 is the key, for me. The writer makes three statements (underlined) concerning Christ before his sacrifice. The third statement helps my understanding the most, because I cannot fathom the full meaning of the others. "He holds everything together by his powerful word." He is clearly Christ, the Creator.
It helps because it points out more clearly the WAY in which God interacts with the physical universe. Surely He created it, but to 'sustain it' or 'hold it together' implies a continued 'interface' between God Who is Spirit and the physical, of which we are a part. Clearly, it is Christ the Son who is the Creator, the Sustainer, and the 'holder together'. He is the God who 'comes out of' the Father and HE and the Father are One. For me, Christ is the interface of Spirit God with physical creation.
It's my personal belief that physical creation itself has much more of a connection with Spirit and much less a 'distinction from' than common understanding. Heb. 1:3 gives evidence of this. I am hoping that Ray's conference in Nashville and the materials that come out of that will either correct or strengthen my understanding.
I still maintain that words are not enough to fully comprehend God. But they are what we have, and we would have precious little understanding without them. His words are Truth. We just need to know what they really MEAN. I certainly don't claim to, and would be highly reluctant to worship a God who COULD be 'explained'.
--- End quote ---
Hi! Brother Dave in Tenn
I agree with what you are saying; "He holds everything together by his powerful word."
That is very understandable because we are told that He is the Word; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (1Jn.1:1-3). This is exactly what Paul is telling us in Heb.1:1-3.
There is only ONE God the Father, so how do we come to have two Gods, the Father God and the Son God?
A little lower down this mystery is revealed; "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (Jn.1:18). The Word/Son is in the bosom of the Father, a Fetus if you will, this being so it is still ONE God, the Father.
So where does the Word get His power from?
In human relations the child is the product of two individuals and as a consequence carries the genes of both parents. He/she is a totally independent being with a DNA of its very own, unique.
Now in the case of the Father Son relationship there is only one parent the Father, so the Son of necessity carries all the character traits of the Father. In short He is an identical snapshot image of the Father, which is what Paul is telling us in; "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made." (Heb.1:3).
At the consummation we all hope to be sons and daughters of the Living God. But there will still only be the ONE GOD the FATHER in Whom are all things.
This how I see it, brother, but I don't quite understand your statement; "We just need to know what they really MEAN. I certainly don't claim to, and would be highly reluctant to worship a God who COULD be 'explained'." Maybe you'd like to enlighten me?
The only point I disagree with both you and Marques is on the meaning of the two words, Begotten and Created.
There is not much difference I agree in carnal, earthly terms but when we come to apply those words to God they become as different as apples and potatoes.
Let me explain my reasoning;
Begotten means, bringing forth, being born, giving birth to. All living creatures, including man, can produce and give birth to, but they cannot create. That is God's sole prerogative.
Created means, to make, to produce, to manufacture out of pure energy, which is Light which is the Father. Only God has the power to create.
Now let us take the word Begotten. If the Father gives birth/begets the Word/Christ, Christ will be the exact image of the Father with His power to do His Will, that is, to create all things. In short He is the Creator/God who rightly deserves our worship. " "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him." (1Jn.5:1).
Now let us take the word Create. If the Father created the Word/Christ, and the Word created all things, then the Word would be a part of that creation. In short the Word would be a mere creature and we would be worshiping the creature and not the Creator/God which is idolatry and no different to the Hindu worshiping a cow or a golden calf.
JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION AND SINCERE BELIEF, BROTHER
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
PS. All emphasis are mine.
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