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John 1:1-5
AK4:
--- Quote ---Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God
--- End quote ---
Hi heidi,
I gotta look further into that verse because some translations dont have...
"These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God"
New International Version
Revelation 3 Read This Chapter
3:14
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
3:15
I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!
The Complete Jewish Bible
Revelation 3 Read This Chapter
3:14
"To the angel of the Messianic Community in Laodicea, write: 'Here is the message from the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the Ruler of God's creation:
3:15
"I know what you are doing: you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were either one or the other!
GOD'S WORD
Revelation 3 Read This Chapter
3:14
"To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: The amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the source of God's creation, says:
3:15
I know what you have done, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or hot.
Hebrew Names Version of World English Bible
Revelation 3 Read This Chapter
3:14
"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amein, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:
3:15
"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or hot.
World English Bible
Revelation 3 Read This Chapter
3:14
"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:
3:15
"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or hot.
We will have to look at the original greek scriptures for that.
Anthony
AK4:
Sorry im at work so i cant delve into this to deep right now but here is was what the NAS greek lexicon has for beginning in this verse.
Home > Lexicons > Greek > Arche
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 746 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
arce from (756)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Arche 1:479,81
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ar-khay' Noun Feminine
Definition
beginning, origin the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause the extremity of a thing
of the corners of a sail the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
of angels and demons
NAS Word Usage - Total: 56
beginning 38, corners 2, domain 1, elementary 1, elementary* 1, first 1, first preaching 1, principalities 1, rule 4, rulers 6
NAS Verse Count
Matthew 4
Mark 4
Luke 3
John 8
Acts 4
Romans 1
1 Corinthians 1
Ephesians 3
Philippians 1
Colossians 4
2 Thessalonians 1
Titus 1
Hebrews 6
2 Peter 1
1 John 7
2 John 2
Jude 1
Revelation 3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total 55
And,
Home > Lexicons > Greek > Archomai
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 756 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
arcomai middle voice of (757) (through the implication of precedence)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Archomai 1:478,*
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ar'-khom-ahee Verb
Definition
to be the first to do (anything), to begin to be chief, leader, ruler to begin, make a beginning
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on August 20, 2008, 11:15:17 AM ---Hello Roy,
Are you saying through this thread that Jesus existed eternally 'in the bosom' of the Father? You don't believe begotten and created are the same?
And also, are you saying if we refer to Jesus as the Father's creation, that we cannot/should not worship the creation as we should only worship the Creator?
Looking through these posts and the scriptures everyone has posted, I still don't see the huge difference between begotten & created. Either way, the Father brought the Son, Jesus, into existence. Jesus stated He 'came out of the Father'. The Father comes out of no one. Jesus was able to die, the Father has always been immortal. Etc...
Also you stated that from John 1:1-5 this scripture means "This can only mean that the Son was in the bosom of the Father from the very beginning. In which case the Son has the identical character traits bestowed on Him by the Father as the Father is ONE GOD."
But see as you stated, the Son was at the very beginning...but the Father has no beginning. Whether begotton or created, Jesus came out of the Father and then brought everything else into existence. So Jesus had a beginning and the Father does not have a beginning.
In a nutshell, I still don't completely understand the issue. Whether begotton or created, Jesus came out of the Father and has a beginning. I don't understand how being either created or begotten changes anything about Christ.
For me, I wouldn't have a problem if people referred to Jesus as begotton only or created only. It doesn't seem edifying to refer to Him as only one or the other. Kind of a non-issue to me but to each his own.
Thanks,
Marques
--- End quote ---
Hi! Marques
Your quote; "Are you saying through this thread that Jesus existed eternally 'in the bosom' of the Father?"
No, not I brother, God is saying that; "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." (Jn.1:18)
Your quote; "You don't believe begotten and created are the same?"
Yes, I most certainly don't believe that Begotten and Created have the same meaning, and more so when applied to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Let us take the carnal line first, Strong's Concordance;
1)..........Begotten in Hebrew:- Bring forth, give birth to, be born. #4138, #3318, #3205
2)..........Begotten in Greek:- To be born, to give birth to, to bring forth, to hatch. #4416, #3439, #1080, 313.
Now
1).........Created in Hebrew:- to create, to make, to create out of nothing, bring something into existence, only God
can create something out of nothing. #1254
2).........Created in Greek:- to create, to make, creator, only God can create, always the act of God. #2936
So from the carnal angle the two words come under totally different numbers with totally different meanings.
Your quote; "And also, are you saying if we refer to Jesus as the Father's creation, that we cannot/should not worship the creation as we should only worship the Creator?"
Nowhere does it say that the Father creates anything, it is the Word that does all the creating. (Jn.1:3). He takes all power and authority of the Father and executes His Father's will. He is the Creator/God and only God is entitled to be worshiped and not a creature, a creation. The creature cannot create something out of nothing, that is the sole prerogative of God.
Your quote; "But see as you stated, the Son was at the very beginning...but the Father has no beginning. Whether begotton or created, Jesus came out of the Father and then brought everything else into existence. So Jesus had a beginning and the Father does not have a beginning."
That is perfectly right, the Father had no beginning and has no end, likewise the Son who is in the bosom of the Father from the beginning has no beginning and no end, they are both eternal, the only difference being that the Son by virtue of being the Son is subject to the Father's Will; “I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. (Jn.5:30).
Your quote; "For me, I wouldn't have a problem if people referred to Jesus as begotton only or created only. It doesn't seem edifying to refer to Him as only one or the other. Kind of a non-issue to me but to each his own."
The difference amounts to this, whether one chooses to worship his Creator/God or the Golden calf. The first is Begotten and the second has been created. There is absolutely nothing of me in this, it is all in God's Word as quoted.
I hope this helps brother.
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: AK4 on August 20, 2008, 11:11:47 AM ---HI Roy
Very nicely explained. So i have another question. When i was in with the teachings of Herbert Armstrong he wrote a paper that basically said that we shouldnt pray to Jesus but we are supposed to pray to the Father through Jesus. So is this basically what you (scriptures you quoted) are saying too?
Anthony
--- End quote ---
Hi! Anthony
Yes brother. All to the Father in Jesus' name.
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
AK4:
Strong's Number: 746 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
arce from (756) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Arche 1:479,81
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ar-khay' Noun Feminine
Definition
beginning, origin the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause the extremity of a thing
of the corners of a sail the first place, principality, rule, magistracy
of angels and demons
Home > Lexicons > Greek > Archomai
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 756 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
arcomai middle voice of (757) (through the implication of precedence)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Archomai 1:478,*
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ar'-khom-ahee Verb
Definition
to be the first to do (anything), to begin to be chief, leader, ruler to begin, make a beginning
--- Quote ---"Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
--- End quote ---
Looking at the definition and the root word of "beginning" in this verse, it is indicating rulership and authority. He is the beginning/origin/head of the creation and that makes him ruler. Not the beginning of creation.
Here are some other ways this same word is used in scripture.
Tit 3:1
Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed,
Ac 11:15
"And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, just as He did upon us at the beginning. (origin)
Ac 26:4
"So then, all Jews know my manner of life from my youth up, which from the beginning(origin) was spent among my own nation and at Jerusalem;
Ro 8:38
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers
________________________________________
1Co 15:24
then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
________________________________________
________________________________________
Col 1:18
He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything.
Col 2:10
and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
Col 2:15
When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
________________________________________
Col 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him.
Interesting that last part---all things have been created by Him and for Him. Since He is the origin, the chief, the leader that by which anything begins to be, how could he be created.
For by Him all things were created.
I think the KJV and its family of bibles didnt translate that well enough.
Just MHO
In Jesus,
Anthony
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