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[Kat]

I think the Scripture in Revelation does cause a bit of phase on this matter, as Young's gives it a bit of a different perspective...

Rev 3:14  `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness--the faithful and true--the chief of the creation of God;

And it is this passage in Hebrews that makes me hesitate on Christ having a beginning.  We know He was Melchizedek from the OT and this is what it says of Him.

Heb 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of God Most High, who meets with Abraham returning from the combat with the kings and blesses him,
v. 2 to whom Abraham parts a tithe also, from all; being first, indeed, translated king of righteousness,yet thereupon king of Salem, also, which is "king of Peace";"
v. 3 fatherless, motherless, without a genealogy, having neither a beginning of days nor consummation of life, yet picturing the Son of God is remaining a priest to a finality."

And this verse...

Heb 9:11 But, when Christ approached, as high-priest of the coming good things, through the greater and more perfect tent, not made by hand, that is, not of this creation,—  (Rotherham)

Christ was with the Father before the universe.

John 17:5 And, now, glorify Me—thou, Father! with Thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world’s existence, with Thee.

I think our understanding on this is hampered by comparing this to what we have here in the physical.  So before the creation of this universe Christ was with the Father and they were One, as in mind and will.  
There does seem that there was some kind of individualness in their being, before the universe, as there appears to be some kind of separation in beings. Maybe their relationship at that time is not something that can be explained in physical terms.  Christ was always the spokesman/Word of the Father, but it was when Christ was born of Mary that He actually became the Father's Son.  And we never knew of the Father until Christ revealed Him.

Mat 11:27  All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

A lot to consider, I guess we have to pray for our spiritual eyes to be opened a little wider to comprehend all this  

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[AK4]

Great points Kat

[mharrell08]

Ditto Kat 

[Akira329]

Why can't Jesus be both created and begotten??

[Roy Monis]

I think the Scripture in Revelation does cause a bit of phase on this matter, as Young's gives it a bit of a different perspective...

Rev 3:14  `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness--the faithful and true--the chief of the creation of God;

And it is this passage in Hebrews that makes me hesitate on Christ having a beginning.  We know He was Melchizedek from the OT and this is what it says of Him.

Heb 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of God Most High, who meets with Abraham returning from the combat with the kings and blesses him,
v. 2 to whom Abraham parts a tithe also, from all; being first, indeed, translated king of righteousness,yet thereupon king of Salem, also, which is "king of Peace";"
v. 3 fatherless, motherless, without a genealogy, having neither a beginning of days nor consummation of life, yet picturing the Son of God is remaining a priest to a finality."

And this verse...

Heb 9:11 But, when Christ approached, as high-priest of the coming good things, through the greater and more perfect tent, not made by hand, that is, not of this creation,—  (Rotherham)

Christ was with the Father before the universe.

John 17:5 And, now, glorify Me—thou, Father! with Thyself, with the glory which I had, before the world’s existence, with Thee.

I think our understanding on this is hampered by comparing this to what we have here in the physical.  So before the creation of this universe Christ was with the Father and they were One, as in mind and will.   
There does seem that there was some kind of individualness in their being, before the universe, as there appears to be some kind of separation in beings. Maybe their relationship at that time is not something that can be explained in physical terms.  Christ was always the spokesman/Word of the Father, but it was when Christ was born of Mary that He actually became the Father's Son.  And we never knew of the Father until Christ revealed Him.

Mat 11:27  All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

A lot to consider, I guess we have to pray for our spiritual eyes to be opened a little wider to comprehend all this 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi! Kathy

Your quote;    Heb 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of God Most High, who meets 
                    with Abraham returning from the combat with the kings and blesses him, v. 2 to whom Abraham 
                    parts a tithe also, from all; being first, indeed, translated king of righteousness,yet thereupon king 
                    of Salem, also, which is "king of Peace";"  v. 3 fatherless, motherless, without a genealogy, having 
                     neither a beginning of days nor consummation of life, yet picturing the Son of God is remaining a 
                     priest to a  finality."

Is this not what I've been saying all along that the Word/the Son/the Most High Priest/Christ call Him what you will, what's the difference they are all the same God, no mother, of the Old Testament continuing to do the Will of the Father. This is the same Word that started the creation of the universe in obedience to the Father's Will. When it came time for the promised Messiah, the Word/Christ/Son of God entered the body that was prepared in advance; "Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me; Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me; In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure. “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) To do Your will, O God.’"   (Heb.10:5-7).

It was this body occupied by the Word/Son of God that was implanted into Mary by The Father's Spirit to be called by the earthly name Jesus. Hence Jesus becomes the Christ/Son of God and the Creator of all things. "For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again, “I will be a Father to Him And He shall be a Son to Me”? And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”" (Heb.1:5-6). The first time the Word was begotten of the Father was before creation, "I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You." (Ps.2:7). This now is the Word/Son's second birth, when He again brings the firstborn into the world as Jesus the promised Christ/Messiah "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;" (Heb.9:11).

Whichever way we look at it, He certainly wasn't created or we'd be worshiping the creature and not the Creator.

God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

 

[AK4]

Why can't Jesus be both created and begotten??

Akira, read through this whole thread to find that answer.  It is very well argued and explained the difference between created and begotten.

[Roy Monis]

As Ray has pointed out, it is axiomatic that for God to be Father, He must have (in this case) a Son. 

I agree with Marques that the words 'created', 'begotten', 'come out of' present no problem to me any more than 'justification', 'propitiation', 'redemption' present no problem--they are specific aspects (in the context of explaining) of the same thing.

The most telling verse in my understanding is in Hebrews.

Heb 1:1  God, having spoken in former times in fragmentary and varied fashion to our forefathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2  has in these last days spoken to us by a Son whom he appointed to be the heir of everything and through whom he also made the universe.
Heb 1:3  He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty
Heb 1:4  and became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is better than theirs.

Though the KJV and its followers translates the Greek as 'angels' rather than 'messengers', it seems very clear to me that the writer of Hebrews is speaking about the Prophets of old as 'messengers' because that's how he starts his thought.

Heb. 1:3 is the key, for me.  The writer makes three statements (underlined) concerning Christ before his sacrifice.  The third statement helps my understanding the most, because I cannot fathom the full meaning of the others.  "He holds everything together by his powerful word."  He is clearly Christ, the Creator.

It helps because it points out more clearly the WAY in which God interacts with the physical universe.  Surely He created it, but to 'sustain it' or 'hold it together' implies a continued 'interface' between God Who is Spirit and the physical, of which we are a part.  Clearly, it is Christ the Son who is the Creator, the Sustainer, and the 'holder together'.  He is the God who 'comes out of' the Father and HE and the Father are One.  For me, Christ is the interface of Spirit God with physical creation.

It's my personal belief that physical creation itself has much more of a connection with Spirit and much less a 'distinction from' than common understanding.  Heb. 1:3 gives evidence of this.  I am hoping that Ray's conference in Nashville and the materials that come out of that will either correct or strengthen my understanding.

I still maintain that words are not enough to fully comprehend God.  But they are what we have, and we would have precious little understanding without them.  His words are Truth.  We just need to know what they really MEAN.  I certainly don't claim to, and would be highly reluctant to worship a God who COULD be 'explained'. 

Hi! Dave in Tenn

True for God to be a Father He must have a Son or daughter, in this case a Son. But we are told that this Son/Word was with the Father from the very beginning, in His bosom  (Jn.1:1-3...18). If the Son was with the Father from eternity then He wasn't or could not have been created. The only option open would be for the Father to give birth to Him. Which is the point I am making. Christ was not created but legitimately born of the Father. And there is a very big difference between the two where Deity is concerned.

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
   

[mharrell08]

I actually can see where Roy is coming from as I look in the scriptures regarding begotten & created. But we should probably drop this issue before it becomes an argument filled thread that eventually gets locked down.

Personally, I think people may look at begotten & created as the same but I do not believe it is done as a way to demean Jesus. That's why I don't believe this is an issue worth all the fuss. I always looked at Christ as 'out of the Father'. Whether that is begotten or created, I never put that much thought into it. It doesn't seem to be an issue that keeps one from being of the Elect which is what our main goal is, you know?

This issue just seems kind of petty but that's just my opinion. If others have stronger feelings regarding this, I don't mean to belittle your opinon. It's just I don't believe that most of the members here take great issue with using begotten or created or 'out of'. Either usage doesn't change the fact that we are to live our lives after Him. Neither usage is of any edifying to make one spiritually mature.

Also, how about emailing Ray to see what he thinks?



Thanks,

Marques

[Dave in Tenn]

From Roy:  This how I see it, brother, but I don't quite understand your statement; "We just need to know what they really MEAN.  I certainly don't claim to, and would be highly reluctant to worship a God who COULD be 'explained'."   Maybe you'd like to enlighten me?

First off...I don't disagree with your understanding of God or the relationship of Father and Son.

The only way I can think of to 'enlighten' you about what I said is with another example.  Christ is brother, savior, husband, master, in us, with us and many other things in relation to us.  All true and all at the same time.  If I wanted to argue that Christ could not be my brother AND my bridegroom (especially since I am a man) at the same time, you wouldn't agree with that, surely.

These are relationships to which WE are a party, yet we still cannot FULLY understand them.  It is exceedingly more important that I be careful in meditating on the nature of the Father/Son relationship of God seeing that I am mere flesh and am not yet a party to that relationship.  It is the whole council of God that will bring the fullest understanding.

This is way over my paygrade, but I believe that we cannot get this 'right' (though we can obviously grow closer to a more full understanding).  I believe the very last idol to be smashed among even the Very Elect of God will be their own personal mental (not necessarily Theological) conception/understanding of God.  Until then, I want to grow in understanding, but never build an altar to my own understanding of God.

I'm watching the thread with interest, but I don't want to get into a debate...especially since I believe in "Omni-Wrongness" (especially my own) when it comes to this.  

 

[Akira329]

How can anything be born if the means of birth aren't first created?
Jesus came out of God?
Wasn't it all a process??
How does this question his deity? or whether or not he is worthy to be praised?
Didn't Ray cover this quite extensively in his trinity paper and the Nashville conference??
I'm surprised at the questions that appear on here sometimes?
Its like we don't read the material at all.
Besides I believe Ray will tackle this topic in the upcoming conference so till then......

Antaiwan

[Snowfire]

If it had not been for the “of whom are all things” Christ would have died and never been resurrected. He would have ceased to exist.

For the same reason I don’t think Christ could have “emptied himself” had there not been an “of whom are all things” to bring him (Christ) into existence again as the Son of the Father.

[OBrenda]

Heidi

Just had to let you know that your post added greatly to my struggle through this thread.  I'm trying to organize what I've learned from everybody here.  And I want to throw out whats clanging in my head to see if I'm missing the forrest for the trees...?

(Lets remember that Ray has enlightened us from the scriptures that God is also Female)

As a earthly mother, I understand to give birth, is to push out of myself, something that was created inside of me, a child/being very similar to myself [with some help from the father]

Now Christ is a mirror reflection of the Father, [DNA from only one parent] think along the lines of Cloning, which takes the DNA from one living creature, and creates a identical. We now understand through science, that this is possible to do in the physical.

Is it possible, that prior to the creation of the universe God created Christ from exactly himself/DNA that was separate and at the same time everything that God was?  Two but One?

God created Adam, and out of Adam God took something? and created Eve!
She was created out of exactly the same stuff/DNA as Adam.  Two but One?

Be it Spiritual or earthly through these Two but One, comes several million kazillion as the sands of the seas...decedents?

Father God, through Jesus God.......creates everyhing........
They create man, and together through the female.....create many nations

And when Father God placed the Divine/DNA exact mirror of himself/Jesus in Mary.
The Word/God/Creator became Flesh and dwelt among us.

When we worship Christ, are we worshiping the creation, or the creator?
My Guess here would be it depends on the understanding of the Depths of who Jesus is?

What say you?

 
Brenda

[winner08]

I know this is simple minded but who were we told by Jesus  to worship?




                                            Darren

[Roy Monis]

I know this is simple minded but who were we told by Jesus  to worship?




                                            Darren

Hi! Darren

We worship the Father in Spirit and the Father only, He is a jealous God, “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me," (Ex.20:5). But we pray to Him in the name of His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. That's in my opinion.

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

[Heidi]

We worship the Father in Spirit and the Father only, He is a jealous God, “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me," (Ex.20:5). But we pray to Him in the name of His only begotten Son Jesus Christ.

Jesus was God in the old testament, when praying to God the Father we ask Him that His will be done.....in the name of Jesus. 

Brenda, like you I also think along those lines.  Jesus was the only begotten Son.....because no one else have been begotten of God that way.

[AK4]

We worship the Father in Spirit and the Father only, He is a jealous God, “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me," (Ex.20:5). But we pray to Him in the name of His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. That's in my opinion.

You are right Roy.  But i need help with this. 

The KJV Strong's Version   
 
Revelation 5     Read This Chapter
5:12
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 
5:13
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 


New International Version   
 
Revelation 5     Read This Chapter
5:12
In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" 
5:13
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" 


The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

 Strong's Number:   2129  Browse Lexicon 
Original Word Word Origin
eujlogiva from the same as (2127)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Eulogia 2:754,275
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
yoo-log-ee'-ah      Noun Feminine 
 
 Definition
praise, laudation, panegyric: of Christ or God fine discourse, polished language
in a bad sense, language artfully adapted to captivate the hearer: fair speaking, fine speeches an invocation of blessing, benediction consecration a (concrete) blessing, benefit 
   
 King James Word Usage - Total: 16
blessing 11, bounty 2, bountifully + (1909)&version=kjv 2, fair speech 1
 
   KJV Verse Count   
Romans 2
1 Corinthians 1
2 Corinthians 2
Galatians 1
Ephesians 1
Hebrews 2
James 1
1 Peter 1
Revelation 3
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total 14
 
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

 Strong's Number:   2127  Browse Lexicon 
Original Word Word Origin
eujlogevw from a compound of (2095) and (3056)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Eulogeo 2:754,275
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
yoo-log-eh'-o      Verb 
 
 Definition
to praise, celebrate with praises to invoke blessings to consecrate a thing with solemn prayers
to ask God's blessing on a thing pray God to bless it to one's use pronounce a consecratory blessing on of God
to cause to prosper, to make happy, to bestow blessings on favoured of God, blessed 
   
 King James Word Usage - Total: 44
bless 43, praise 1
 
   KJV Verse Count   
Matthew 6
Mark 6
Luke 13
John 1
Acts 1
Romans 1
1 Corinthians 3
Galatians 1
Ephesians 1
Hebrews 6
James 1
1 Peter 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total 41
 

These are the only two verses that i can find that may say praise Jesus.  But more translations has blessings than praise.  The word for those has got to be used as a noun and not a verb.  And when you look at how its been used throughout scripture, as blessing(s) more than praise.  I think the NIV may have translated wrong with praise. 

What say you guys?

Anthony,

ps--- I was going to start this post in response to Akiras post

How does this question his deity? or whether or not he is worthy to be praised?

And ask can you find me a verse that specifically says he(Jesus) is worthy to be praised.

Insert Quote
Quote from: winner08 on Today at 05:49:57 AM
I know this is simple minded but who were we told by Jesus  to worship?




                                            Darren

Darren, think about it like this. Jesus came in his Fathers name and worshipped him.  If he would of came in His own name what would have happened?

Joh 5:43 - Show Context
I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him

Imagine this verse....

Joh 11:41 - Show Context
So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me.
 
going like this...

"Jesus, I thank myself that i heard myself"

[AK4]

Another thing...

If we are to praise Jesus, what would have been the point of Him introducing us to the Father?

[Kat]

I think a little review of Ray's article 'Is God a Close Trinity or an Open Family' will help us get our bearings on this matter.


                               Who and What is GOD?

"There is ONE GOD, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL is..." (I Cor. 8:6).

"For there is ONE God" (I Tim. 2:5).

"You are my witnesses whether there is any god, any Power, any besides ME" (Isa. 44:8 Moffatt Translation).

"The ONE Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will..." (Eph. 1:11).

"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is ALL: to HIM be the glory for the eons! Amen!" (Rom. 11:36).

"...your heavenly Father IS PERFECT" (Mat. 5:48)

"God IS LOVE" (I John 4:08).

"God IS SPIRIT" (John 4:24).

"...the INVISIBLE GOD" (II Cor. 4:4).

"Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ" (John 17:3).

Jesus called His Father "...the ONLY TRUE GOD" (Jn. 17:3).

"God is NOT A MAN..." (I Sam. 15:29).


                           Who and What is Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).

"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).

"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).

"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)

"God’s CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).

"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).

"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).

I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God?"  Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.

Is Christ God? YES HE IS!

"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:08).

And also:

Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).

Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS !

"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),

"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),

"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God’s Son art Thou!’"

"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).

So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.

Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Jesus explains this verse for us:

"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."

Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
----------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

Another thing...

If we are to praise Jesus, what would have been the point of Him introducing us to the Father?

Php 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
 
Php 2:7  But made himself of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men:
 
Php 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
 
Php 2:9  Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name:
 
Php 2:10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things in earth and things under the earth;
 
Php 2:11  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I believe this sums up the answer to your question Anthony, if we love, praise, follow and exalt Jesus Christ we are also doing the very same thing to His and our Father as they are of One Mind and One Spirit. When we worship Christ we are worshipping the Father who sent Him to us, Christ is the perfect Ambassador for God our Father.

Peace,

Joe

[AK4]

Wow i cant believe i overlooked those plain scriptures Joe. Yes that did sum up that stupid question of mine.  You and Kat hit the nail right on top of the head.