> General Discussions
John 1:1-5
AK4:
Hi Roy,
--- Quote ---Now let us take Gen.1:1 ---"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Here then we have the Only Begotten Son who has come forth (born of, given birth to) out of the Father
--- End quote ---
You're saying it right there, your just not seeing it.
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 3439 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
monogenhvß from (3441) and (1096)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Monogenes 4:737,606
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
mon-og-en-ace' Adjective
Definition
single of its kind, only
used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God
King James Word Usage - Total: 9
only begotten 6, only 2, only child 1
KJV Verse Count
Luke 3
John 4
Hebrews 1
1 John 1
Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 1096 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
givnomai a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ginomai 1:681,117
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ghin'-om-ahee Verb
Definition
to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
of events to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
of men appearing in public to be made, finished
of miracles, to be performed, wrought to become, be made
King James Word Usage - Total: 678
be 255, come to pass 82, be made 69, be done 63, come 52, become 47, God forbid + (3361)&version=kjv 15, arise 13, have 5, be fulfilled 3, be married to 3, be preferred 3, not translated 14, miscellaneous 4, vr done 2
King James Dictionary
Begotten
To have born; brought forth.
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is BEGOTTEN of him. (1 John 5:1)
Dictionary of Words from the King James Bible. Public Domain. Copy freely.
You're saying the same thing. Created, begotten, made, brought forth, come to pass, etc etc. Your on it.
Col 1:15 - Show Context
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation
How do you get an image? The camera makes an image of you. The camera created/begat/made/brought forth an image of you. How does the Father get an image of Himself? Well really he can't. He's Spirit. He's invisible.
Ro 1:20 - Show Context
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
The Father begat/created/made/brought forth an image of Himself. Its like the Father took a picture of Himself to see what he looked like, instead of just a lifeless picture He create/begat/made/ brought for a being that will represent Him or better speaking be Him.
I look at like this. If i'm God and i'm Spirit and i know that im going to make a physical world where that wont be able to see spirit, how can i get them to see me. They will know me by my Word, but how will they see me. Hmmmm i know i will create/begot/bring forth/make an being in my image for them who will have everything that I am in Him. ( I could go longer in this, but you get the jist)
Like i said earlier, you got it!! You just aint seeing it.
In Jesus,
Anthony
ps. I tried to do all the apostrophes and the like. You are killing me! :) ;) :D ;D 8)
Kat:
Hi Roy,
--- Quote ---There are a plethora of Scriptures to say that the Father Begat the Son/Word but none to say that He created Him.
This is what is worrying me and I can’t follow it. The God that spoke with Moses and Abraham in the wilderness was Jesus Christ and He announced that He was God. This is the same Jesus Christ we are talking about here so if He was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob how could He have been created. If He was created He'd be no different to an angel, archangel or them for that matter, all created beings.
--- End quote ---
Good answer Anthony.
Here is the Scripture for Christ being created.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; (KJV)
Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:" (CLV)
Christ did come out of the Father as all things have, but we can see in that Scripture in Revelation that Jesus Christ was the very first of the Father creation. We don't know how long it was or what happened between Christ's creation and when He created the universe. It is my belief that Jesus Christ was created to be over (as God) and in charge of this creation (by the power of the Father) and I think that is what is being said in John 1.
John 1:3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
Here is excerpts from the 'Trinity' paper that I think speak about this.
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html ---------------------
Jesus said He didn't need to "rob" God to be equal with Him. Why? Because the Father freely GAVE Jesus all that He had and possessed. Jesus had ALL power and ALL authority and ALL judgment in heaven and earth. Were these things the natural possessions of Jesus seeing that He is supposedly a third equal part of this trinity? No, my friend. God GAVE Jesus all these things -- they had an origin and the origin is GOD THE FATHER.
Jesus Christ will be SUBJECT to God His Father for all eternity (See I Cor. 15:24-28).
v
v
Colosians 1:15-16 refers to Christ as the "firstborn" (PROTOTOKOS)=originator/source of ALL God's creation. John 1:1, Heb 1, and Col 1 tell us that christ made ALL things. Don't insert the brackets and the word "other things" like the erroneous JW's try to do.That is not in the text.
v
v
[Ray Replies]
You suggest that Heb. 1:3 says that Jesus is the "substance" of God. I am not sure how you are using that word. Substance can mean both the "essence" of something or the "material" part of something. Jesus Christ had a physical body and could be seen, whereas God does not have a physical body (God is SPIRIT) and God cannot be seen as He is INVISIBLE. It is interesting to note that the KJV translates this word "[h]upo'stasis" into 'substance' but one time in Scripture and that is not in Heb. 1:3, but in Heb. 11:1, Now faith IS the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen." Now that translation should receive some sort of prize for one the WORST possible translations in all Scripture.
Paul said we are to live by FAITH and not SIGHT [or perception]. What is "substance and evidence" but things that can be seen, weighed and perceived? And things that can be SEEN AND HANDLED (as
in "substance") don't require faith in the first place. Faith is was is required when there IS NOT SUBSTANCE OR EVIDENCE! An infidel can believe in things he can see and handle! Faith is the "assumption" or "confidence" or "assurance" ASIDE from any substance or evidence!
Possibly the Greek "[h]upo'stasis" can be used to mean substance, however, not in any Scripture that I am aware of. And the same is true with Heb. 1:3. Jesus does not "consist" of the "substance" of God Who is invisible, but rather Jesus is the VISIBLE IMAGE of the INVISIBLE GOD. God does not bear this visible substance which can be seen, therefore He send His Son in a VISIBLE form that can be seen (and heard).
This same Greek word is found in other Scriptures, but it is NEVER translated "substance." Notice for example, II Cor. 9:4, and 11:17, Heb. 3:14. If the Father were to take to Himself a Form or a Substance then what we would see is CHRIST. Christ IS the express image, form, (or substance if you insist) of God His Father. However, the difference is that when Christ takes on all of the Father's form, image, character, etc., etc., we can see and hear and touch Him with our hands, but we still cannot see, hear or touch our Heavenly Father with our physical hands. Jesus said that when we SEE Him we SEE the Father even though the Father is INVISIBLE! Granted, this is a little higher than theology 101.
You state, "Man, don't you believe the Bible? Colosians 1:15-16 refers to Christ as the 'firstborn' (PROTOTOKOS)=originator/source of ALL God's creation." Do you really think I never read that Scripture or don't believe it?
But notice how you answer this question in your own statement: "Christ...the source of all GOD's creation." There it is "God's" creation. There is always that ONE before and above Christ--God, His Father and His God! It took REAL POWER to create the universe didn't it? Where do you suppose Christ got that power? Man, don't you believe the Bible? (Just kidding).
Now seriously, Mat. 2818, "ALL POWER is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth." There it is again, my friend. The FATHER is always in charge. And again, I Cor. 15:27-28,
"For He [the Father] hath put all things under His [Christ's] feet. But when He [the Father] saith, all things are put under Him [Christ] it is MANIFEST THAT HE [GOD THE FATHER] IS EXCEPTED, which did put all things under Him."
And not verse 28:
"And when all things shall be subdued unto Him [Christ], then shall the Son ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT unto HIM [HIS GOD AND FATHER] that PUT all things under Him, that God may be all in all."
No trinity here, my friend. In fact the Holy Spirit is not even mentioned in these most bold declaration of God through Paul.
Rather than say "Christ is not the supreme deity" let me restate it so that you can hopefully and clearly see the concept that I am presenting. Paul tells us that God is a "family" in Ephesians. Jesus Christ is not the HEAD of that family of God, but rather the FATHER is the head and just as I quoted to you from the Scriptures in I Cor. 15, Jesus Christ will always be SUBJECT TO THE FATHER and no the other way around. Cannot you agree with that statement in Verse 28, "...then shall the SON also Himself be SUBJECT unto HIM [THE FATHER]...? And let me just say that that word for subject in this verse is the same word used in Luke 10:20, "Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits ARE SUBJECT unto you..." Since the spirits are "subject" to the apostles, how could we ever contend that they are EQUAL as in a "trinity?"
As far as Christ going around claiming He was God, He did not, however, I will concede that He did say before Abraham was "I AM." Even when Pilate asked directly whether or not He was the Son of God, Christ refused to answer Pilate directly. If you noticed I made the statement at least twice in my paper, "Jesus IS GOD" "Christ is God."
Gotta run. Till next time. . .
Ray
----------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: AK4 on August 15, 2008, 02:30:35 PM ---Hi Roy,
--- Quote ---Now let us take Gen.1:1 ---"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Here then we have the Only Begotten Son who has come forth (born of, given birth to) out of the Father
--- End quote ---
You're saying it right there, your just not seeing it.
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 3439 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
monogenhvß from (3441) and (1096)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Monogenes 4:737,606
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
mon-og-en-ace' Adjective
Definition
single of its kind, only
used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents) used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God
King James Word Usage - Total: 9
only begotten 6, only 2, only child 1
KJV Verse Count
Luke 3
John 4
Hebrews 1
1 John 1
Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 1096 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
givnomai a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ginomai 1:681,117
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ghin'-om-ahee Verb
Definition
to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
of events to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
of men appearing in public to be made, finished
of miracles, to be performed, wrought to become, be made
King James Word Usage - Total: 678
be 255, come to pass 82, be made 69, be done 63, come 52, become 47, God forbid + (3361)&version=kjv 15, arise 13, have 5, be fulfilled 3, be married to 3, be preferred 3, not translated 14, miscellaneous 4, vr done 2
King James Dictionary
Begotten
To have born; brought forth.
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is BEGOTTEN of him. (1 John 5:1)
Dictionary of Words from the King James Bible. Public Domain. Copy freely.
You're saying the same thing. Created, begotten, made, brought forth, come to pass, etc etc. Your on it.
Col 1:15 - Show Context
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation
How do you get an image? The camera makes an image of you. The camera created/begat/made/brought forth an image of you. How does the Father get an image of Himself? Well really he can't. He's Spirit. He's invisible.
Ro 1:20 - Show Context
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
The Father begat/created/made/brought forth an image of Himself. Its like the Father took a picture of Himself to see what he looked like, instead of just a lifeless picture He create/begat/made/ brought for a being that will represent Him or better speaking be Him.
I look at like this. If i'm God and i'm Spirit and i know that im going to make a physical world where that wont be able to see spirit, how can i get them to see me. They will know me by my Word, but how will they see me. Hmmmm i know i will create/begot/bring forth/make an being in my image for them who will have everything that I am in Him. ( I could go longer in this, but you get the jist)
Like i said earlier, you got it!! You just aint seeing it.
In Jesus,
Anthony
ps. I tried to do all the apostrophes and the like. You are killing me! :) ;) :D ;D 8)
--- End quote ---
Hi! Anthony
I understand what you are saying. Father is Spirit and no one has seen Him. Perfectly correct. It also says that the Word was with God/Father and that the Word was God. The Word also is Spirit like the Father, an image of Him. Let's look at the wording; "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-2). There is no mention of Jesus at this stage of creation, it was the Word, the direct image of the Father, God, whom the Father gave birth to, Begotten, that did the work of creation. The Creator God. "I will tell of the decree: Jehovah said unto me, Thou art my son; This day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I will give thee the nations for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel." (Ps.2:7-9). Begotten not created
Between this period and the creation of man, a body was prepared in readiness in accord to God's preordained plan for the Word. "But a body didst thou prepare for me; 6In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hadst no pleasure: Then said I, Lo, I am come (In the roll of the book it is written of me) To do thy will, O God."(Heb.10:5-7). This is the Word speaking.
Now we come to the birth of Jesus. "But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, 'Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” (Matt.1:20-21). "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." (Jn.1:14).
The Word entered the body prepared in Psalm 2:7-9 and was impregnated into Mary by the Holy Spirit of the Father. Now we have Jesus as the Word of God/the Son of God with the quality of Deity. Jesus is now the Word, the CREATOR GOD, with full authority from the Father.
This is in accord with Ray's teaching, everything by Scripture and verified by Scripture. It is also in accord with the Word of God; "Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so." (Acts 17:11).
As far as Revelation 3:14 is concerned; “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:" Please check the superior fig. or reference number alongside beginning in the centre column of the Bible for its correct interpretation. You'll see it is a noun and means God the first born over all creation. The CREATOR of, but not part of.
I am not in anyway doing wrong, I'm following Ray's and the Bible's teaching to the letter. If I am wrong then prove it wrong and I'll willingly accept it. After all we are here to learn the truth and not accept anything but the truth. Is that not so? Please read all I have written very carefully before jumping to a conclusion and replying that is all I ask.
This proves that Jesus the man was created but Jesus the Word whom we worship and follow was Born of God and as such is God in His own right and not part of the creation, rather the CREATOR.
I missed this in Ray's paper on the Trinity theory, I printed it out for any that might want to argue the point, but didn't bother to read it myself because I've never believed in it in the first place since Matthew 1:18 & 20 knocks it on the head right away with no way out. End of story.
I know this may seem argumentative but it's not intended that way, I mean well, I'm in search of the truth as I'm sure we all are. I was only alerted to this when Samson came out with the statement "Thank the Father for creating Jesus Christ." This made me wonder why no one had questioned it, that's why I've raised it here. Not to criticize or debunk but to learn and the only way to learn is to ask questions.
NOW PLEASE TELL ME WHAT IT IS THAT I'M NOT SEEING? Because I can't see what you mean by that.
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
Kat:
Hi Roy,
--- Quote ---As far as Revelation 3:14 is concerned; “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:" Please check the superior fig. or reference number alongside beginning in the centre column of the Bible for its correct interpretation. You'll see it is a noun and means God the first born over all creation. The CREATOR of, but not part of.
--- End quote ---
This is from the transcript of the Nashville Conference 2007 WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html ----
"These things says the Amen [Jesus] the faithful and True Witness [Jesus] the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14).
There are three theories about how Christ came about.
1) He came about for the first time as a human being, out of a physical mother. That was the first time Christ ever existed.
2) He was created sometime before that and them came into the mother.
3) Then you have, He is eternal, He always existed.
Very few believe He just came into existence as a physical human being, for the first time ever. Though I had one man argue with me for weeks. He said, ‘no, in the beginning was the Word and it was the Father, that the Word was God and not Christ‘. Not too many people believe that, but some do.
Most people follow the Christian tradition and they believe no. 3, that Christ was eternal, He’s part of the trinity and He’s always existed.
But of course the truth is no. 2, Jesus Christ was created.
-"the Origin of God’s creation" (James Moffatt).
-"God’s creative Original" (Concordant Literal New Testament).
-"The Chief of the creation of God" (Young’s Translation).
-"the Origin, and Beginning, and Author of God’s creation" (The Amplified New Testament).
Well the truth of the matter is from those translations, you can’t actually prove that He is not eternal, by that statement. But you say, yea He’s the beginning, He started the creation, He‘s eternal. So to me it’s a proof that He is the beginning. Not the beginning of what God has created on the earth, but He Himself is ‘the beginning’ of God’s creation. It depends how you emphasize. You have the same sentence with two totally different meanings.
It’s like, I tell you this day, today I’m telling you, you shall be in paradise. Or. I tell you, today you shall be in paradise. And there‘s this one. What’s that up in the road ahead. Or. What’s that up in the road, a head.
So we won’t place a lot of emphasis on that one. But one thing that we do know from that one is, before He was human, He was there! So we know whatever His beginning was, He was there, at the beginning.
----------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: Kat on August 15, 2008, 05:37:39 PM ---
Hi Roy,
--- Quote ---There are a plethora of Scriptures to say that the Father Begat the Son/Word but none to say that He created Him.
This is what is worrying me and I can’t follow it. The God that spoke with Moses and Abraham in the wilderness was Jesus Christ and He announced that He was God. This is the same Jesus Christ we are talking about here so if He was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob how could He have been created. If He was created He'd be no different to an angel, archangel or them for that matter, all created beings.
--- End quote ---
Good answer Anthony.
Here is the Scripture for Christ being created.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; (KJV)
Rev 3:14 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:" (CLV)
Christ did come out of the Father as all things have, but we can see in that Scripture in Revelation that Jesus Christ was the very first of the Father creation. We don't know how long it was or what happened between Christ's creation and when He created the universe. It is my belief that Jesus Christ was created to be over (as God) and in charge of this creation (by the power of the Father) and I think that is what is being said in John 1.
John 1:3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
Here is excerpts from the 'Trinity' paper that I think speak about this.
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html ---------------------
Jesus said He didn't need to "rob" God to be equal with Him. Why? Because the Father freely GAVE Jesus all that He had and possessed. Jesus had ALL power and ALL authority and ALL judgment in heaven and earth. Were these things the natural possessions of Jesus seeing that He is supposedly a third equal part of this trinity? No, my friend. God GAVE Jesus all these things -- they had an origin and the origin is GOD THE FATHER.
Jesus Christ will be SUBJECT to God His Father for all eternity (See I Cor. 15:24-28).
v
v
Colosians 1:15-16 refers to Christ as the "firstborn" (PROTOTOKOS)=originator/source of ALL God's creation. John 1:1, Heb 1, and Col 1 tell us that christ made ALL things. Don't insert the brackets and the word "other things" like the erroneous JW's try to do.That is not in the text.
v
v
[Ray Replies]
You suggest that Heb. 1:3 says that Jesus is the "substance" of God. I am not sure how you are using that word. Substance can mean both the "essence" of something or the "material" part of something. Jesus Christ had a physical body and could be seen, whereas God does not have a physical body (God is SPIRIT) and God cannot be seen as He is INVISIBLE. It is interesting to note that the KJV translates this word "[h]upo'stasis" into 'substance' but one time in Scripture and that is not in Heb. 1:3, but in Heb. 11:1, Now faith IS the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen." Now that translation should receive some sort of prize for one the WORST possible translations in all Scripture.
Paul said we are to live by FAITH and not SIGHT [or perception]. What is "substance and evidence" but things that can be seen, weighed and perceived? And things that can be SEEN AND HANDLED (as
in "substance") don't require faith in the first place. Faith is was is required when there IS NOT SUBSTANCE OR EVIDENCE! An infidel can believe in things he can see and handle! Faith is the "assumption" or "confidence" or "assurance" ASIDE from any substance or evidence!
Possibly the Greek "[h]upo'stasis" can be used to mean substance, however, not in any Scripture that I am aware of. And the same is true with Heb. 1:3. Jesus does not "consist" of the "substance" of God Who is invisible, but rather Jesus is the VISIBLE IMAGE of the INVISIBLE GOD. God does not bear this visible substance which can be seen, therefore He send His Son in a VISIBLE form that can be seen (and heard).
This same Greek word is found in other Scriptures, but it is NEVER translated "substance." Notice for example, II Cor. 9:4, and 11:17, Heb. 3:14. If the Father were to take to Himself a Form or a Substance then what we would see is CHRIST. Christ IS the express image, form, (or substance if you insist) of God His Father. However, the difference is that when Christ takes on all of the Father's form, image, character, etc., etc., we can see and hear and touch Him with our hands, but we still cannot see, hear or touch our Heavenly Father with our physical hands. Jesus said that when we SEE Him we SEE the Father even though the Father is INVISIBLE! Granted, this is a little higher than theology 101.
You state, "Man, don't you believe the Bible? Colosians 1:15-16 refers to Christ as the 'firstborn' (PROTOTOKOS)=originator/source of ALL God's creation." Do you really think I never read that Scripture or don't believe it?
But notice how you answer this question in your own statement: "Christ...the source of all GOD's creation." There it is "God's" creation. There is always that ONE before and above Christ--God, His Father and His God! It took REAL POWER to create the universe didn't it? Where do you suppose Christ got that power? Man, don't you believe the Bible? (Just kidding).
Now seriously, Mat. 2818, "ALL POWER is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth." There it is again, my friend. The FATHER is always in charge. And again, I Cor. 15:27-28,
"For He [the Father] hath put all things under His [Christ's] feet. But when He [the Father] saith, all things are put under Him [Christ] it is MANIFEST THAT HE [GOD THE FATHER] IS EXCEPTED, which did put all things under Him."
And not verse 28:
"And when all things shall be subdued unto Him [Christ], then shall the Son ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT unto HIM [HIS GOD AND FATHER] that PUT all things under Him, that God may be all in all."
No trinity here, my friend. In fact the Holy Spirit is not even mentioned in these most bold declaration of God through Paul.
Rather than say "Christ is not the supreme deity" let me restate it so that you can hopefully and clearly see the concept that I am presenting. Paul tells us that God is a "family" in Ephesians. Jesus Christ is not the HEAD of that family of God, but rather the FATHER is the head and just as I quoted to you from the Scriptures in I Cor. 15, Jesus Christ will always be SUBJECT TO THE FATHER and no the other way around. Cannot you agree with that statement in Verse 28, "...then shall the SON also Himself be SUBJECT unto HIM [THE FATHER]...? And let me just say that that word for subject in this verse is the same word used in Luke 10:20, "Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits ARE SUBJECT unto you..." Since the spirits are "subject" to the apostles, how could we ever contend that they are EQUAL as in a "trinity?"
As far as Christ going around claiming He was God, He did not, however, I will concede that He did say before Abraham was "I AM." Even when Pilate asked directly whether or not He was the Son of God, Christ refused to answer Pilate directly. If you noticed I made the statement at least twice in my paper, "Jesus IS GOD" "Christ is God."
Gotta run. Till next time. . .
Ray
----------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
#############
Hi! Kath
Your quote to Anthony "Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" (KJV). A glance at the superior against the word beginning says the first born, and I realize that that can be taken two ways, so let us take it further.
I know that the Word/Christ got His power and everything He possesses from His Father. All biological children have character traits from the parents but not the splitting image of the parents because there are two individuals involved. But in the case of the Father the Son is the snapshot image of Him because there is only One involved, which means that the snapshot image Son in His Father's bosom has all the character traits of the Father including the title of God but subject to Him, lower in rank. When the Father gives birth or begats the Son. The Son is God the Creator, the beginning of creation. Here we have the beginning of creation and it's what the superior against the word beginning in (Rev.3:14) means. The Creator/God is the First Fruit of the beginning not a created being.
If you must insist how do you address this verse? “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.” (Micah 5:2). How can a created being have existed eternally?
God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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