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Author Topic: John 1:1-5  (Read 12668 times)

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Roy Monis

  • Guest
Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2008, 01:10:18 PM »

Hi Roy and AK4,

I have been studying Ray's paper on The Father's will.....(THE FATHER'S WILL? . . . . . . . . . . . Mobile Conference 2006)

"Rev 3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

The beginning was the Word of God, what did God began with?  Jesus Christ, right?  The Word, that’s what God began with, Jesus Christ is the beginning.

In Gen. 1:1 it says, “In the beginning[ Heb: reshiyth - spec. Firstfruits] God [Heb: Elohim] created the heavens and the earth”
 
We read in 1 Cor 15:20  “But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the Firstfruit of those who slept.”

That Jesus Christ “became the Firstfruit of those who slept.”  Who is the Firstfurit?  JESUS CHRIST.

Where did Jesus come from:  John 7:29; John 13:3; John 9:42; John 16: 27-28; 1 John 4:9, 14.
 
Jesus was created by the Father; Heb 1:2; Rev 3:14.  Jesus Christ was created and than became the Creator of all.  So when you talk about Jesus Christ, you are talking about God.  But you are talking about the One who was begotten in the God family, and one who could be emptied and formed such as a man.

A couple of other points here.  Christ said to the Pharisees, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58).  He didn’t say I was, He said “I am.”  And what did He tell Moses?  Moses said who will I say sent me and He said tell,  “I AM THAT I AM” (Exo. 3:14), or I Am what I will be, is what the Hebrew indicates.
So Adam, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Jacob and the Hebrews, never knew God the Father, they knew Jesus Christ - Yahweh.  When they hung Christ on the cross, they crucified their own Creator."


So Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament.  He is the reason Elohim is plural, “and God said let US.”
So the Father is doing the creating, but it is done through His Son, Jesus Christ, His first born.  Now for scriptural proof, in Heb. 1:8 it says "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of the eons ...”  Now I know the Jehovah Witness and I’ve read all their stupid ways of trying to get around that verse, and it just won’t smoke.  It means what it says, God addresses Jesus Christ as “Thy throne, O God,” and the O is in there, it’s in the Greek and it’s back in the Hebrew where this verse is quoted from as well.


I hope this helps a bit.

Heidi



Hi! Heidi

Thank you for your response. Please allow me to answer your post, quote by quote. Please note I'm not trying to influence, teach, preach, or contradict Ray in anyway. I am just expressing my view and what the Scriptures are saying to me. It is purely my opinion that we're discussing.

1)......"Rev 3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;"

In reply:-  Where does it say that God created Christ? I don't see the word create, do you? It says the creation of God. so God/Word is the Creator, not the created. It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ "..who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw." (Rev.1:2).

2)....."The beginning was the Word of God, what did God began with?  Jesus Christ, right?  The Word, that’s what God began with, Jesus Christ is the beginning."

In reply:-  No it didn't begin with Jesus Christ, Jesus is not yet in the picture, it began with the Word. Let's keep with the Scriptures. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3). What this Scripture is saying, is that the Word was with the Father from the very beginning, that is from eternity, and that the Word was God and all things were created by Him, the Word.

3)…… In Gen. 1:1 it says, “In the beginning[ Heb: reshiyth - spec. Firstfruits] God [Heb: Elohim] created the heavens and the earth”

My reply
:-   Indeed He is the First Fruit of creation, ( First Fruit that is first born, not created) the Son of God the Word/God. The First Fruit/Word/God created the heavens and earth doing the Will of His Father. God is not a created being.

4)........We read in 1 Cor 15:20  “But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the Firstfruit of those who slept.”.....That Jesus Christ “became the Firstfruit of those who slept.”  Who is the Firstfurit?  JESUS CHRIST." That Jesus Christ “became the Firstfruit of those who slept.”  Who is the Firstfurit?  JESUS CHRIST.

In Reply:-  Absolutely true. “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”
  (Heb.1:5-6).
The first time the Word was Born was before creation commenced now again He is born into the world that wasn’t in existence before. This time as Jesus Christ in the body that was prepared for Him/Word in advance. “Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME; IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE. “THEN I SAID, ‘BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.’ ” (Heb.10:5-7).  This is God the Son speaking with His Father. Jesus Christ the legitimate Son/Word of the Father. He is not only the First Fruit of creation but now He is also the First Fruit of those in the world who slept in the world before His arrival. 

5)……… Where did Jesus come from:  John 7:29; John 13:3; John 9:42; John 16: 27-28; 1 John 4:9, 14.

My reply:- Jn.7:29 “I know Him, because I am from Him, and He sent Me.” What does that tell us about His origin, we know He comes from the Father, He has told us that several times.
Jn.9:42  There is no Vs. 42
Jn.13:3  “Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God and was going back to God,”  We know He came from the Father, we have already seen that He was born of the Father and not created by Him.
Jn.!6:27-28  “ “I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father.” His disciples *said, “Lo, now You are speaking plainly and are not using a figure of speech.”  There is nothing new that we didn’t know before but none of it tells us of His origin, that is what we are discussing.

6)………Jesus was created by the Father; Heb 1:2; Rev 3:14.  Jesus Christ was created and than became the Creator of all.  So when you talk about Jesus Christ, you are talking about God.  But you are talking about the One who was begotten in the God family, and one who could be emptied and formed such as a man.

My reply    Where has this come from? I see no Scripture that says that Jesus Christ was created by the Father, can you?  “…in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.”  (Heb.1:2). There is no mention of Jesus Christ being created. “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this.” Rev.3:14).  I can see no mention that Jesus Christ was created. The Amen, the Beginning, the Witness indicates a Creator not something created. A, W & B are in upper case for that reason. There is no mention of Jesus Christ being created.

7)………A couple of other points here.  Christ said to the Pharisees, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58).  He didn’t say I was, He said “I am.”  And what did He tell Moses?  Moses said who will I say sent me and He said tell,  “I AM THAT I AM” (Exo. 3:14), or I Am what I will be, is what the Hebrew indicates.
So Adam, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Jacob and the Hebrews, never knew God the Father, they knew Jesus Christ - Yahweh.  When they hung Christ on the cross, they crucified their own Creator."

So Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament.  He is the reason Elohim is plural, “and God said let US.”
So the Father is doing the creating, but it is done through His Son, Jesus Christ, His first born.  Now for scriptural proof, in Heb. 1:8 it says "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of the eons ...”  Now I know the Jehovah Witness and I’ve read all their stupid ways of trying to get around that verse, and it just won’t smoke.  It means what it says, God addresses Jesus Christ as “Thy throne, O God,” and the O is in there, it’s in the Greek and it’s back in the Hebrew where this verse is quoted from as well.


My reply:-  Christ (Jesus is not yet born) is the God Yahweh of the Old Testament, I have never denied that, but it has nothing to do with the present topic. What you are saying here is something I just don’t understand, it has no relevance to what is being discussed except for one thing and that is;  “So the Father is doing the creating, but it is done through His Son, Jesus Christ, His first born “ Wrong! He certainly is not and nowhere does it say so. The Son/Word is doing the creating in accord with His Father's Will, He is the Creator and not the Father. Please read (Jn.1:1-3) very carefully before making that claim, because it isn’t true and we are here looking for the truth with Scriptural proof avoiding human guess work.

God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK 

PS:- Your quotes are highlighted in red



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Roy Monis

  • Guest
Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2008, 03:10:36 PM »


I think a little review of Ray's article 'Is God a Close Trinity or an Open Family' will help us get our bearings on this matter.


                               Who and What is GOD?

"There is ONE GOD, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL is..." (I Cor. 8:6).

"For there is ONE God" (I Tim. 2:5).

"You are my witnesses whether there is any god, any Power, any besides ME" (Isa. 44:8 Moffatt Translation).

"The ONE Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will..." (Eph. 1:11).

"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is ALL: to HIM be the glory for the eons! Amen!" (Rom. 11:36).

"...your heavenly Father IS PERFECT" (Mat. 5:48)

"God IS LOVE" (I John 4:08).

"God IS SPIRIT" (John 4:24).

"...the INVISIBLE GOD" (II Cor. 4:4).

"Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ" (John 17:3).

Jesus called His Father "...the ONLY TRUE GOD" (Jn. 17:3).

"God is NOT A MAN..." (I Sam. 15:29).


                           Who and What is Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).

"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).

"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).

"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)

"God's CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).

"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).

"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).

I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God?"  Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.

Is Christ God? YES HE IS!

"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:08).

And also:

Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).

Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS !

"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),

"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),

"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God's Son art Thou!’"

"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).

So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.

Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Jesus explains this verse for us:

"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."

Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
----------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat




Hi! Kathy

Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).

I don't have a Bible or any translation that puts those words in that order, which makes the Word out to be the Father, so I cannot truthfully deny that. But if that is so then how can it be possible for the Word/Son to be in the bosom of the Father/Word? This can only be possible if we take Jesus to His word; “I and the Father are one.”  (Jn.10:30). Then it becomes possible, which means that He is the identical snapshot image of the Father with all the Father's character traits. Hence worthy of worship. And not created but legitimately born of the Father.

The man Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah the Word the Son of God. There is but ONE GOD, but the Word was with God in His bosom, Christ is the ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind. Jesus is but the flesh representative of the Word as the Word being God cannot die, that is why the Word had to divest Himself of all His Deity and come into the world as Jesus the man. Still the ONE GOD and still the ONE MEDIATOR. “I and the Father are one.” (Jn.10:30).

Or how do we account for:-

"Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually." (Heb.7:3). This is speaking about the Word the Son of God.

God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

PS   I have highlighted Ray's words in red.
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ciy

  • Guest
Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2008, 05:04:59 PM »


"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assurdly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and
Christ." Acts 2:36

Jesus had the anointing of Christ which made him "Jesus the Christ".  One of the major heretical doctrines of Babylon is to get the people to kneel before a physical Jesus hanging on a cross.  That keeps all looking at a physical Jesus instead of the anointing of Christ which is in Jesus and also must be in you as in Colossians 1:27 "Christ in you, the hope of glory".  That same anointing is the Light that shineth in all men and "they comprehend it not."

Speaking of John 1:1-5, when Ray spoke on the word "Grace" being "divine influence on the heart" and in his talk used the meaning in place of the word in several scriptures, it led me to do some studies likewise.  The following is one that really intrigues me and is very interesting to meditate upon.

According to Strong's the meaning of Word (logos) is "something spoken including the thought" so I will substitute that for the word "Word" and follow that thru:

In the beginning was the (something spoken including the thought), and the (something spoken including the thought) was with God, and the (something spoken including the thought) was God.
[Now the "something spoken including the thought" is God]

The (something spoken including the thought) was in the beginning with (something spoken including the thought).

All things were made by (something spoken including the thought); and without (something spoken including the thought) was not any thing made that was made.

In (something spoken including the thought) was life[if you will chase down the meaning of life it is spirit]; and the life [or spirit] was the light of men.

And the light shineth in darkness[darkness is what man walks in on earth, which is the carnal or physical]; and the darkness [or physical] comprehended it [or spirit] not.

I have no conclusion just thought it is interesting to ponder.

CIY

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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2008, 06:13:40 PM »



Or how do we account for:-

"Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually." (Heb.7:3). This is speaking about the Word the Son of God.



Hi Roy,

We all should be very careful when attempting to teach a doctrine based on one verse. Read Chapters 6 & 7 in their entirety. We see that Melchizedek is a type of Christ yes but consider this, we do have a geneology of Jesus Christ, Jesus died and was resurrected. Melchizedek does not have a geneology recorded in the scriptures, nor was his birth recorded nor his death. There is no record of a man making him a priest. He is a type a shadow as King David is a type/shadow. It speaks of the legacy of Melchizedek being fulfilled and completed by Jesus Christ.

This is another riddle/parable (Eze 17:2) that does not have a simple explanation but needs to be searched out.

Christ's priesthood began before the foundation of the earth, before man, before geneologies and will not cease even after God is All in All. To me it seems that you are saying Jesus Christ is not the Son of God but the Clone of God. If they are indeed 2 parts of the same exact entity then how could it also be true that no man has seen or heard the voice of God? What makes Christ and the Father One is the same thing that will one day make us One with Him, a single spiritual Mind that only seeks to do the will of the Father.

Peace,

Joe

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AK4

  • Guest
Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2008, 09:19:46 PM »

Okay think on this.

The Word had a physical body prepared for him.

Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me; In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure. “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) To do Your will, O God.’ (Heb.10:5-7).

We have been predestined (a body prepared for us too since God has foreknowledge) and created with physical body and basically had the same thing for us right?....
 
Ro 8:29 - Show Context
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Ro 8:30 - Show Context
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Eph 1:5 - Show Context
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

Eph 1:11 - Show Context
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

So as for us being resurrected, we will be born of God and not recreated right?...

John 1:11-14
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Same as the Word.  The Word wasnt created but born.  The Words' physical body, Jesus, was made/created/prepared

We will also be born of God.  We are created now, but we will all be born again.

Joh 3:3 - Show Context
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Joh 3:7 - Show Context
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

1Pe 1:23 - Show Context
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God

(An exerpt from Rays paper 12 Truths to Understanding Scriptures)
No one could comprehend every verse in the Old Testament Scriptures that represented Jesus, but they could learn the PRINCIPLE by which Jesus fulfilled all the law and all the prophets. And that is how the apostles and the two disciples on the road to Emmaus had their understanding of the Scriptures opened in just a very short time. When the Scriptures speak of Israel they speak of Jesus, and when they speak of Jesus they speak of us, for "…as Jesus is, so are we in the world" (I John 4:17).  (bolding done by me)

So as the Word was born of God so will we.  We wont be recreated just like the Word couldnt be created but born.

(An exerpt from Rays paper 12 Truths to Understanding Scriptures)
Jesus Christ is our Example of just how man (mankind) is to "be made into the Image of God." Jesus is our example, our way, and our destiny:

"For whom He did foreknow, [that’s US, and eventually all humanity, I Cor. 15:28], He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29).

Jesus was made a physical man so that He could show us the way to the spirit God.

And so it was that this Jesus, in the flesh, who became human, became a man of flesh, was conformed into the spiritual "Image of God," and spoke to us through His "words of spirit." It is Jesus Who "was the word of God" back in Genesis, Who did the speaking when "…God [the Word] said, Let there be light" (Gen. 1:3). It was "the word" in Genesis 1:26 Who said: "Make will We humanity in Our Image…" (Concordant Version).

What kind of words were those words, which The Word spoke back there in the garden? Why they were the words of Jesus, and Jesus plainly tells us that His words "ARE SPIRIT" (John 6:63).

Is it just me, but just as i stated in one of my earlier posts and with CIYs' post--

Quote
Speaking of John 1:1-5, when Ray spoke on the word "Grace" being "divine influence on the heart" and in his talk used the meaning in place of the word in several scriptures, it led me to do some studies likewise.  The following is one that really intrigues me and is very interesting to meditate upon.

According to Strong's the meaning of Word (logos) is "something spoken including the thought" so I will substitute that for the word "Word" and follow that thru:

In the beginning was the (something spoken including the thought), and the (something spoken including the thought) was with God, and the (something spoken including the thought) was God.
[Now the "something spoken including the thought" is God]

The (something spoken including the thought) was in the beginning with (something spoken including the thought).

All things were made by (something spoken including the thought); and without (something spoken including the thought) was not any thing made that was made.


Being predestined (something spoken including the thought) When the Word started creating/creation and since....

Quote
Jesus Christ is our Example of just how man (mankind) is to "be made into the Image of God." Jesus is our example, our way, and our destiny:
(Rays)

in this way doesnt it show how the Word was begotten and not created, but his physical, Jesus, was created.

Im will end this here because i know in this post my thoughts are everywhere because my niece and nephew keep interrupting in mid thought.

What do you guys think on this?

In Jesus,

Anthony

ps i didnt get to fully finish Reading Rays 12 Truths to Understanding Scripture again (i've read it before but its been awhile) before i posted this so i may be way off base,  If so im sorry.
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Roy Monis

  • Guest
Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2008, 01:34:01 PM »

Okay think on this.

The Word had a physical body prepared for him.

Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have prepared for Me; In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure. “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come (In the scroll of the book it is written of Me) To do Your will, O God.’ (Heb.10:5-7).

We have been predestined (a body prepared for us too since God has foreknowledge) and created with physical body and basically had the same thing for us right?....
 
Ro 8:29 - Show Context
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Ro 8:30 - Show Context
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Eph 1:5 - Show Context
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

Eph 1:11 - Show Context
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

So as for us being resurrected, we will be born of God and not recreated right?...

John 1:11-14
11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Same as the Word.  The Word wasnt created but born.  The Words' physical body, Jesus, was made/created/prepared

We will also be born of God.  We are created now, but we will all be born again.

Joh 3:3 - Show Context
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Joh 3:7 - Show Context
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

1Pe 1:23 - Show Context
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God

(An exerpt from Rays paper 12 Truths to Understanding Scriptures)
No one could comprehend every verse in the Old Testament Scriptures that represented Jesus, but they could learn the PRINCIPLE by which Jesus fulfilled all the law and all the prophets. And that is how the apostles and the two disciples on the road to Emmaus had their understanding of the Scriptures opened in just a very short time. When the Scriptures speak of Israel they speak of Jesus, and when they speak of Jesus they speak of us, for "…as Jesus is, so are we in the world" (I John 4:17).  (bolding done by me)

So as the Word was born of God so will we.  We wont be recreated just like the Word couldnt be created but born.

(An exerpt from Rays paper 12 Truths to Understanding Scriptures)
Jesus Christ is our Example of just how man (mankind) is to "be made into the Image of God." Jesus is our example, our way, and our destiny:

"For whom He did foreknow, [that’s US, and eventually all humanity, I Cor. 15:28], He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29).

Jesus was made a physical man so that He could show us the way to the spirit God.

And so it was that this Jesus, in the flesh, who became human, became a man of flesh, was conformed into the spiritual "Image of God," and spoke to us through His "words of spirit." It is Jesus Who "was the word of God" back in Genesis, Who did the speaking when "…God [the Word] said, Let there be light" (Gen. 1:3). It was "the word" in Genesis 1:26 Who said: "Make will We humanity in Our Image…" (Concordant Version).

What kind of words were those words, which The Word spoke back there in the garden? Why they were the words of Jesus, and Jesus plainly tells us that His words "ARE SPIRIT" (John 6:63).

Is it just me, but just as i stated in one of my earlier posts and with CIYs' post--

Quote
Speaking of John 1:1-5, when Ray spoke on the word "Grace" being "divine influence on the heart" and in his talk used the meaning in place of the word in several scriptures, it led me to do some studies likewise.  The following is one that really intrigues me and is very interesting to meditate upon.

According to Strong's the meaning of Word (logos) is "something spoken including the thought" so I will substitute that for the word "Word" and follow that thru:

In the beginning was the (something spoken including the thought), and the (something spoken including the thought) was with God, and the (something spoken including the thought) was God.
[Now the "something spoken including the thought" is God]

The (something spoken including the thought) was in the beginning with (something spoken including the thought).

All things were made by (something spoken including the thought); and without (something spoken including the thought) was not any thing made that was made.


Being predestined (something spoken including the thought) When the Word started creating/creation and since....

Quote
Jesus Christ is our Example of just how man (mankind) is to "be made into the Image of God." Jesus is our example, our way, and our destiny:
(Rays)

in this way doesnt it show how the Word was begotten and not created, but his physical, Jesus, was created.

Im will end this here because i know in this post my thoughts are everywhere because my niece and nephew keep interrupting in mid thought.

What do you guys think on this?

In Jesus,

Anthony

ps i didnt get to fully finish Reading Rays 12 Truths to Understanding Scripture again (i've read it before but its been awhile) before i posted this so i may be way off base,  If so im sorry.


Hi! Anthony

I will answer that long and inspired rendition with just two words "SPOT ON". Jesus the flesh was created. Christ/Word/Spirit/ Son of God whatever came forth from the Father, He was begotten. Born not created. "SPOT ON".

Much deeper thinking than I'm capable of, brother, but virtually identical. I applaud you. The main point being that the Word/Christ was begotten born not created. Christ the Son of God is worthy of worship, the CREATOR; a created Christ is a part of creation, a CREATURE. If we worship the created Christ we are worshiping the CREATURE and not the CREATOR. That is the whole point of my thread and it is of extreme importance to know what we are worshiping, don't you think?

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
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mharrell08

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #66 on: August 24, 2008, 02:30:49 PM »


Much deeper thinking than I'm capable of, brother, but virtually identical. I applaud you. The main point being that the Word/Christ was begotten born not created. Christ the Son of God is worthy of worship, the CREATOR; a created Christ is a part of creation, a CREATURE. If we worship the created Christ we are worshiping the CREATURE and not the CREATOR. That is the whole point of my thread and it is of extreme importance to know what we are worshiping, don't you think?



Hello Roy,

First off, thank you for your simpler, more direct post. I am a simple man who likes to get right to the meat of a discussion.

Second, nothing personal, but this is exactly where I thought this post was headed and why I recommended letting it die down. I understand your position through this entire discussion, but the idea of NOT worshipping Christ in any form or fashion does not sit well with me. And idea or theology that even hints at not worshipping Christ, in whatever form a person speaks of, is anti-Christ.

Whether you wish to say begotten or created, Christ did not come out of himself. He did not exist but through the Father. So the Father, not Christ himself, brought Him into existence. Begotten or created, it is still out of the Father.

And when you say 'a created Christ is part of creation' and we are not to worship, it seems to say we are not to worship Christ in the flesh since all flesh is created by God. But the apostles did throughout his ministry. If that is not what you mean to say, I apologize.

One last note, I have yet to see why this particular subject is of great spiritual importance. You state that is is, but how does this issue edify anyone in whether they state begotten or created? Does it make one more spiritually mature? Is this an issue that keeps one from being of the Elect? It's a matter of words and they both (begotten & created) state that Christ came out of the Father which are the very words that Christ said himself (John 16:27-28).

Hopefully, instead of more & more post about begotten & created, there can be at least one post that shows, if any, what the spiritual importance of using one word or the other. This really reminds me of doctrine debates & issues that Paul repeatedly tells us to avoid getting in a big huff about (Titus 3:9).


Thanks,

Marques
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hillsbororiver

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #67 on: August 24, 2008, 02:33:45 PM »

Adam and Eve were created, everyone else since then were born, does that mean we are not created? I am sorry I just cannot comprehend what the point is.  ???

Peace,

Joe
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hillsbororiver

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #68 on: August 24, 2008, 02:35:16 PM »

Great post Marques!

Joe
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Roy Monis

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #69 on: August 24, 2008, 02:54:17 PM »

Roy, my overall impression of the paper was that Ray did what Trinity theorists don't do...that is he stuck with what scripture we have and didn't venture 'extra-biblically' to explain it.  Now..how can he, or you, or I 'explain' God?  We can find statements in scripture that describe certain characteristics of God, and teach/believe them as Truth.  But even the scriptures don't explain or define 'Spirit', tell us exactly HOW God created the Heavens and the Earth, what existed before it's creation, what the interaction and relationship of Spirit to the Physical is all about, how God will raise the dead, none of the characteristics of God.  When it comes to God, the scriptures themselves are parables.  Does the Father have hands, a face, a backside?  What is Spirit?  What is Love, even? 

So we have scripture that says the Son is both created and begotten.  Makes me feel a little like Peter after Jesus 'explained' a parable.  "Yes, Lord, I understand now."  Oh really?  I'm very sure that the Scriptures go deeper than I know now, but I'm convinced beyond being unconvinced that we cannot know now what those words really MEAN when it comes to God.  To Rays' credit, I think, he doesn't go where Angels fear to tread.  All language 'falls short of the Glory of God'.  All we have are symbols, because in the end, that's what words themselves are.

   


Hi! Dave in Tenn

Thanks for your input. But the truth of the matter is we don't have Scripture that specifically states that Christ was created. Now I'm not saying Jesus was not created, indeed, all flesh is created, initially that is part of the creation. Christ/Word is Spirit and the Word is Born of God. We are all born of God through our Lord Jesus Christ right now, not created."Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.' ”. It's there, brother, born again not created. We are created flesh but we are born again spirit.

Spirit is invisible, no one knows about the deep secrets of God. We can but speculate as to what was before the was anything and it all comes down to God. We are told He is light and that He created dankness, but we are not told who created light. But Light is pure energy, so we can again only assume that all things were created with His energy. And then stop giving ourselves an unnecessary headache.

But it is extremely important to know who and what we are worshiping, whether it is the Creator who created all things or the creature who created all things. One is true worship the other idolatry.

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
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Roy Monis

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2008, 03:32:08 PM »

Adam and Eve were created, everyone else since then were born, does that mean we are not created? I am sorry I just cannot comprehend what the point is.  ???

Peace,

Joe



Hi! Joe


I'm not denying the fact that all flesh is created, Jesus the man was created, we are told in Heb.10:5 that a body was prepared for Him. Christ/Word is Spirit and the Word was begotten, that is, born of God. The identical snapshot image of God, in short, the Son of God worthy of worship: "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped."  (Rev.5:13-14).

A very, very big difference Joe, between the two words when applied to Deity especially. We have just seen that the Word/Lamb/Jesus is worthy of worship, why because we are told specifically in several places that He is the begotten Son, born of God, the image of the Father with all the Father's character traits by right of inheritance; what we are not told specifically is that He was created by the Father and hence not entitled to be worshiped.

True worship is to worship the Father in Spirit in the name of His Son, the Creator; but to worship a created Christ is to worship a part of creation itself, a creature and not the Creator.  There is a difference and a big, big difference. "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him." (1Jn.5:1).


God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
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Roy Monis

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #71 on: August 24, 2008, 04:50:36 PM »


Much deeper thinking than I'm capable of, brother, but virtually identical. I applaud you. The main point being that the Word/Christ was begotten born not created. Christ the Son of God is worthy of worship, the CREATOR; a created Christ is a part of creation, a CREATURE. If we worship the created Christ we are worshiping the CREATURE and not the CREATOR. That is the whole point of my thread and it is of extreme importance to know what we are worshiping, don't you think?



Hello Roy,

First off, thank you for your simpler, more direct post. I am a simple man who likes to get right to the meat of a discussion.

Second, nothing personal, but this is exactly where I thought this post was headed and why I recommended letting it die down. I understand your position through this entire discussion, but the idea of NOT worshipping Christ in any form or fashion does not sit well with me. And idea or theology that even hints at not worshipping Christ, in whatever form a person speaks of, is anti-Christ.

Whether you wish to say begotten or created, Christ did not come out of himself. He did not exist but through the Father. So the Father, not Christ himself, brought Him into existence. Begotten or created, it is still out of the Father.

And when you say 'a created Christ is part of creation' and we are not to worship, it seems to say we are not to worship Christ in the flesh since all flesh is created by God. But the apostles did throughout his ministry. If that is not what you mean to say, I apologize.

One last note, I have yet to see why this particular subject is of great spiritual importance. You state that is is, but how does this issue edify anyone in whether they state begotten or created? Does it make one more spiritually mature? Is this an issue that keeps one from being of the Elect? It's a matter of words and they both (begotten & created) state that Christ came out of the Father which are the very words that Christ said himself (John 16:27-28).

Hopefully, instead of more & more post about begotten & created, there can be at least one post that shows, if any, what the spiritual importance of using one word or the other. This really reminds me of doctrine debates & issues that Paul repeatedly tells us to avoid getting in a big huff about (Titus 3:9).


Thanks,

Marques


Hi! Marques

Thank you for your kind comments.

I will now attempt to answer the rest.

Your quote:
"Second, nothing personal, but this is exactly where I thought this post was headed and why I recommended letting it die down. I understand your position through this entire discussion, but the idea of NOT worshipping Christ in any form or fashion does not sit well with me. And idea or theology that even hints at not worshipping Christ, in whatever form a person speaks of, is anti-Christ."

My Reply: "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless."  (Titus 3:9). In what way, brother, is this discussion causing foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes? No one has got hot under the collar or fallen out or got nasty, we are after all seeking the truth and the truth can only be ascertained by careful and measured discussion, which this is. And far from it being unprofitable and worthless it is of great importance. We are commanded in the first commandment of God: “You shall have no other gods before Me. “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me," (Ex.20:3-5).

Would you not say that a created christ is a part of the creation, a creature? If a creature then christ by name (false) but idol by intent. We are also told that many false christs and false prophets have gone out, would you accept any of these false christs and worship them?

This is the spirit of the antichrist "and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. " (1Jn.4:3). Have I or anyone here confessed that Jesus is not the Son God? So in what way does it give an impression of the antichrist?

Brother I mean well, it is for our edification that I say these things not to cause discord or friction, believe me I'm being very sincere because I love you all and would do nothing to offend. Pray on it brother, I beg you, I can see a gap as wide as East is to West between the meaning of begotten and created when applied to God and Deity. It is a unique difference only applicable to the Son of God, Jesus Christ, our Creator and Saviour Lord, and I pray to God that you'll see it to.

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     


 
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AK4

  • Guest
Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2008, 06:01:19 PM »

Quote
Hi! Anthony

I will answer that long and inspired rendition with just two words "SPOT ON". Jesus the flesh was created. Christ/Word/Spirit/ Son of God whatever came forth from the Father, He was begotten. Born not created. "SPOT ON".


LOL  :D  I knew it was getting long too when I was writing it and believe me, i wanted to keep going, but those dang kids, bless their hearts.

I agree their is a huge gap.  For all those who dont see a difference, think about why in all of Gods inspired Word that all the verses say He(Word) was BORN of God and it never states he was created.

I also agree with Roy about this thread.  We are seeking the Truth and we are doing it among like minded believers.  Isn't this better than discussing this with some other believers.  If you are seeing conflict in this thread (which i dont) imagine the conflict outside of us.  Imagine having this conversation with a catholic!!  (think about that one, get it) LOL  :D

Me personally, when i post something I am hoping that in some way i may be wrong that someone could show me to the Truth.  But that is why we should all back up everything we say with as many scriptures as possible.

In closing like Roy said we all mean well here and if someone doesnt Kat and Mods kicks him out

In Love,

Anthony

oh Marques im the same way the simplier the better.  I try to make everything simple because Gods i need his Word simplified to me also
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mharrell08

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2008, 07:40:53 PM »

Hi! Marques

Thank you for your kind comments.

I will now attempt to answer the rest.

Your quote:
"Second, nothing personal, but this is exactly where I thought this post was headed and why I recommended letting it die down. I understand your position through this entire discussion, but the idea of NOT worshipping Christ in any form or fashion does not sit well with me. And idea or theology that even hints at not worshipping Christ, in whatever form a person speaks of, is anti-Christ."

My Reply: "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless."  (Titus 3:9). In what way, brother, is this discussion causing foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes? No one has got hot under the collar or fallen out or got nasty, we are after all seeking the truth and the truth can only be ascertained by careful and measured discussion, which this is. And far from it being unprofitable and worthless it is of great importance. We are commanded in the first commandment of God: “You shall have no other gods before Me. “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me," (Ex.20:3-5).

Would you not say that a created christ is a part of the creation, a creature? If a creature then christ by name (false) but idol by intent. We are also told that many false christs and false prophets have gone out, would you accept any of these false christs and worship them?

This is the spirit of the antichrist "and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. " (1Jn.4:3). Have I or anyone here confessed that Jesus is not the Son God? So in what way does it give an impression of the antichrist?

Brother I mean well, it is for our edification that I say these things not to cause discord or friction, believe me I'm being very sincere because I love you all and would do nothing to offend. Pray on it brother, I beg you, I can see a gap as wide as East is to West between the meaning of begotten and created when applied to God and Deity. It is a unique difference only applicable to the Son of God, Jesus Christ, our Creator and Saviour Lord, and I pray to God that you'll see it to.

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     



Hello Roy,

I understand the difference between begotten & created. But either way, Christ came out of the Father. He did not bring himself into existence.

If this is that big of an issue that you want to hold onto, go ahead. 5 pages of posts and still not one way how I or anyone else is spiritually edified from using one word or the other.

Personally, I don't care which word someone uses. As long as people understand Christ came out of the Father and not himself as Trinitarians believe, not a big deal for me. But to each his own.

I'm done...


Thanks,

Marques
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Roy Monis

  • Guest
Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2008, 08:36:53 AM »

Quote
Hi! Anthony

I will answer that long and inspired rendition with just two words "SPOT ON". Jesus the flesh was created. Christ/Word/Spirit/ Son of God whatever came forth from the Father, He was begotten. Born not created. "SPOT ON".


LOL  :D  I knew it was getting long too when I was writing it and believe me, i wanted to keep going, but those dang kids, bless their hearts.

I agree their is a huge gap.  For all those who dont see a difference, think about why in all of Gods inspired Word that all the verses say He(Word) was BORN of God and it never states he was created.

I also agree with Roy about this thread.  We are seeking the Truth and we are doing it among like minded believers.  Isn't this better than discussing this with some other believers.  If you are seeing conflict in this thread (which i dont) imagine the conflict outside of us.  Imagine having this conversation with a catholic!!  (think about that one, get it) LOL  :D

Me personally, when i post something I am hoping that in some way i may be wrong that someone could show me to the Truth.  But that is why we should all back up everything we say with as many scriptures as possible.

In closing like Roy said we all mean well here and if someone doesnt Kat and Mods kicks him out

In Love,

Anthony

oh Marques im the same way the simplier the better.  I try to make everything simple because Gods i need his Word simplified to me also


Hi! Anthony

Thank you my, brother, you indeed have been blessed with eyes to see and ears to hear. If only we realize that it is the integrity of God the Father's only begotten Son Jesus Christ's' Deity that is at stake in this discussion it would open their eyes. John 1 clearly starts with the heading in bold print, "The Deity Of Jesus Christ" and follows with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3). How anyone can carefully read these words and misinterpret the meaning of this very clear Scripture is beyond my humble intellect.

Marques says, 5 pages of discussion on two simple words and still getting nowhere, little does he know that I have failed to keep my promise to pray for those on this forum due to this issue. Each time I start to pray my mind seems to get blocked off and this issue raises its head, as though God is refusing to listen to me. Why? I ask myself. Why? It never used to be this way, so something is definitely wrong. Marques has got the issue confused, trinitarianism is a belief in God The Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, three individual Gods in One God the word God becomes a family name for three independent identities of equal character traits. Whereas here we have just the ONE GOD the Father, Sovereign with a Son in His Image enclosed in His bosom. Still ONE Sovereign God, the Father. (Jn.1:18). "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." How much plainer can this be?     
 
All I know is that the Spirit is decidedly saying something to me and I have a very good idea what that is and will have to act accordingly. I see a strong delusion at work "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."   (2Thess.2:11-12).One cannot serve two masters. God and man. So I fear that I have a very lonely walk along that narrow road, on my own, ahead of me yet again.

I love everyone on this forum, including our much respected teacher, with a godly love, but I cannot forsake my First Love yet again. I have done it once and I will do it no more, whatever the outcome. I am a firm believer in the virtue of loyalty, but even loyalty has its priorities and mine start with God.

Thank you brother Anthony and brother Brian. Many are called but only a few are chosen.

God bless you brothers and sisters in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
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Roy Monis

  • Guest
Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #75 on: August 25, 2008, 08:55:28 AM »

Another thing...

If we are to praise Jesus, what would have been the point of Him introducing us to the Father?

Php 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
 
Php 2:7  But made himself of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men:
 
Php 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
 
Php 2:9  Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name:
 
Php 2:10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things in earth and things under the earth;
 
Php 2:11  And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I believe this sums up the answer to your question Anthony, if we love, praise, follow and exalt Jesus Christ we are also doing the very same thing to His and our Father as they are of One Mind and One Spirit. When we worship Christ we are worshipping the Father who sent Him to us, Christ is the perfect Ambassador for God our Father.

Peace,

Joe




Hi! Joe

That is spot on. We worship the Father and the Father only but in doing so we also worship His Son Jesus Christ who is One in the Father. “In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. Until now you have asked for nothing in My name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be made full." (Jn.16:23-24).

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     
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Roy Monis

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Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #76 on: August 25, 2008, 09:09:09 AM »


I think a little review of Ray's article 'Is God a Close Trinity or an Open Family' will help us get our bearings on this matter.


                               Who and What is GOD?

"There is ONE GOD, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL is..." (I Cor. 8:6).

"For there is ONE God" (I Tim. 2:5).

"You are my witnesses whether there is any god, any Power, any besides ME" (Isa. 44:8 Moffatt Translation).

"The ONE Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will..." (Eph. 1:11).

"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is ALL: to HIM be the glory for the eons! Amen!" (Rom. 11:36).

"...your heavenly Father IS PERFECT" (Mat. 5:48)

"God IS LOVE" (I John 4:08).

"God IS SPIRIT" (John 4:24).

"...the INVISIBLE GOD" (II Cor. 4:4).

"Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ" (John 17:3).

Jesus called His Father "...the ONLY TRUE GOD" (Jn. 17:3).

"God is NOT A MAN..." (I Sam. 15:29).


                           Who and What is Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).

"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).

"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).

"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)

"God’s CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).

"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).

"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).

I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God?"  Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time.

Is Christ God? YES HE IS!

"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: ‘Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:08).

And also:

Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).

Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS !

"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),

"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),

"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, ‘truly, God’s Son art Thou!’"

"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, ‘Lord, help me!’" (Mat. 15:25).

So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.

Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Jesus explains this verse for us:

"Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your law, that ‘I say you are gods’? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,’ seeing that I said, ‘Son of God am I’? If I am not doing My Father’s works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."

Okay then, let’s notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn’t need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
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mercy, peace and love
Kat




Hi! Kathy

How do we equate this statement "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God). in which the Father is obviously the Word with "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."  (Jn.1:14). This makes Jesus Christ the Father how can this be?

And even if it does work out it still doesn't prove that the Word which was from the beginning with God, was created by Him.

God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     


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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: John 1:1-5
« Reply #77 on: August 25, 2008, 09:18:55 AM »

Roy can have the last word on the topic and we can agree to disagree as to the significance of this. When threads begin to repeat themselves it is time to move on.....

Peace,

Joe
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