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John 1:1-5
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on August 24, 2008, 11:33:45 AM ---Adam and Eve were created, everyone else since then were born, does that mean we are not created? I am sorry I just cannot comprehend what the point is. ???
Peace,
Joe
--- End quote ---
Hi! Joe
I'm not denying the fact that all flesh is created, Jesus the man was created, we are told in Heb.10:5 that a body was prepared for Him. Christ/Word is Spirit and the Word was begotten, that is, born of God. The identical snapshot image of God, in short, the Son of God worthy of worship: "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped." (Rev.5:13-14).
A very, very big difference Joe, between the two words when applied to Deity especially. We have just seen that the Word/Lamb/Jesus is worthy of worship, why because we are told specifically in several places that He is the begotten Son, born of God, the image of the Father with all the Father's character traits by right of inheritance; what we are not told specifically is that He was created by the Father and hence not entitled to be worshiped.
True worship is to worship the Father in Spirit in the name of His Son, the Creator; but to worship a created Christ is to worship a part of creation itself, a creature and not the Creator. There is a difference and a big, big difference. "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him." (1Jn.5:1).
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on August 24, 2008, 11:30:49 AM ---
--- Quote from: Roy Monis UK on August 24, 2008, 10:34:01 AM ---
Much deeper thinking than I'm capable of, brother, but virtually identical. I applaud you. The main point being that the Word/Christ was begotten born not created. Christ the Son of God is worthy of worship, the CREATOR; a created Christ is a part of creation, a CREATURE. If we worship the created Christ we are worshiping the CREATURE and not the CREATOR. That is the whole point of my thread and it is of extreme importance to know what we are worshiping, don't you think?
--- End quote ---
Hello Roy,
First off, thank you for your simpler, more direct post. I am a simple man who likes to get right to the meat of a discussion.
Second, nothing personal, but this is exactly where I thought this post was headed and why I recommended letting it die down. I understand your position through this entire discussion, but the idea of NOT worshipping Christ in any form or fashion does not sit well with me. And idea or theology that even hints at not worshipping Christ, in whatever form a person speaks of, is anti-Christ.
Whether you wish to say begotten or created, Christ did not come out of himself. He did not exist but through the Father. So the Father, not Christ himself, brought Him into existence. Begotten or created, it is still out of the Father.
And when you say 'a created Christ is part of creation' and we are not to worship, it seems to say we are not to worship Christ in the flesh since all flesh is created by God. But the apostles did throughout his ministry. If that is not what you mean to say, I apologize.
One last note, I have yet to see why this particular subject is of great spiritual importance. You state that is is, but how does this issue edify anyone in whether they state begotten or created? Does it make one more spiritually mature? Is this an issue that keeps one from being of the Elect? It's a matter of words and they both (begotten & created) state that Christ came out of the Father which are the very words that Christ said himself (John 16:27-28).
Hopefully, instead of more & more post about begotten & created, there can be at least one post that shows, if any, what the spiritual importance of using one word or the other. This really reminds me of doctrine debates & issues that Paul repeatedly tells us to avoid getting in a big huff about (Titus 3:9).
Thanks,
Marques
--- End quote ---
Hi! Marques
Thank you for your kind comments.
I will now attempt to answer the rest.
Your quote: "Second, nothing personal, but this is exactly where I thought this post was headed and why I recommended letting it die down. I understand your position through this entire discussion, but the idea of NOT worshipping Christ in any form or fashion does not sit well with me. And idea or theology that even hints at not worshipping Christ, in whatever form a person speaks of, is anti-Christ."
My Reply: "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless." (Titus 3:9). In what way, brother, is this discussion causing foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes? No one has got hot under the collar or fallen out or got nasty, we are after all seeking the truth and the truth can only be ascertained by careful and measured discussion, which this is. And far from it being unprofitable and worthless it is of great importance. We are commanded in the first commandment of God: “You shall have no other gods before Me. “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me," (Ex.20:3-5).
Would you not say that a created christ is a part of the creation, a creature? If a creature then christ by name (false) but idol by intent. We are also told that many false christs and false prophets have gone out, would you accept any of these false christs and worship them?
This is the spirit of the antichrist "and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. " (1Jn.4:3). Have I or anyone here confessed that Jesus is not the Son God? So in what way does it give an impression of the antichrist?
Brother I mean well, it is for our edification that I say these things not to cause discord or friction, believe me I'm being very sincere because I love you all and would do nothing to offend. Pray on it brother, I beg you, I can see a gap as wide as East is to West between the meaning of begotten and created when applied to God and Deity. It is a unique difference only applicable to the Son of God, Jesus Christ, our Creator and Saviour Lord, and I pray to God that you'll see it to.
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
AK4:
--- Quote ---Hi! Anthony
I will answer that long and inspired rendition with just two words "SPOT ON". Jesus the flesh was created. Christ/Word/Spirit/ Son of God whatever came forth from the Father, He was begotten. Born not created. "SPOT ON".
--- End quote ---
LOL :D I knew it was getting long too when I was writing it and believe me, i wanted to keep going, but those dang kids, bless their hearts.
I agree their is a huge gap. For all those who dont see a difference, think about why in all of Gods inspired Word that all the verses say He(Word) was BORN of God and it never states he was created.
I also agree with Roy about this thread. We are seeking the Truth and we are doing it among like minded believers. Isn't this better than discussing this with some other believers. If you are seeing conflict in this thread (which i dont) imagine the conflict outside of us. Imagine having this conversation with a catholic!! (think about that one, get it) LOL :D
Me personally, when i post something I am hoping that in some way i may be wrong that someone could show me to the Truth. But that is why we should all back up everything we say with as many scriptures as possible.
In closing like Roy said we all mean well here and if someone doesnt Kat and Mods kicks him out
In Love,
Anthony
oh Marques im the same way the simplier the better. I try to make everything simple because Gods i need his Word simplified to me also
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Roy Monis UK on August 24, 2008, 01:50:36 PM ---Hi! Marques
Thank you for your kind comments.
I will now attempt to answer the rest.
Your quote: "Second, nothing personal, but this is exactly where I thought this post was headed and why I recommended letting it die down. I understand your position through this entire discussion, but the idea of NOT worshipping Christ in any form or fashion does not sit well with me. And idea or theology that even hints at not worshipping Christ, in whatever form a person speaks of, is anti-Christ."
My Reply: "But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless." (Titus 3:9). In what way, brother, is this discussion causing foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes? No one has got hot under the collar or fallen out or got nasty, we are after all seeking the truth and the truth can only be ascertained by careful and measured discussion, which this is. And far from it being unprofitable and worthless it is of great importance. We are commanded in the first commandment of God: “You shall have no other gods before Me. “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me," (Ex.20:3-5).
Would you not say that a created christ is a part of the creation, a creature? If a creature then christ by name (false) but idol by intent. We are also told that many false christs and false prophets have gone out, would you accept any of these false christs and worship them?
This is the spirit of the antichrist "and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. " (1Jn.4:3). Have I or anyone here confessed that Jesus is not the Son God? So in what way does it give an impression of the antichrist?
Brother I mean well, it is for our edification that I say these things not to cause discord or friction, believe me I'm being very sincere because I love you all and would do nothing to offend. Pray on it brother, I beg you, I can see a gap as wide as East is to West between the meaning of begotten and created when applied to God and Deity. It is a unique difference only applicable to the Son of God, Jesus Christ, our Creator and Saviour Lord, and I pray to God that you'll see it to.
God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
--- End quote ---
Hello Roy,
I understand the difference between begotten & created. But either way, Christ came out of the Father. He did not bring himself into existence.
If this is that big of an issue that you want to hold onto, go ahead. 5 pages of posts and still not one way how I or anyone else is spiritually edified from using one word or the other.
Personally, I don't care which word someone uses. As long as people understand Christ came out of the Father and not himself as Trinitarians believe, not a big deal for me. But to each his own.
I'm done...
Thanks,
Marques
Roy Monis:
--- Quote from: AK4 on August 24, 2008, 03:01:19 PM ---
--- Quote ---Hi! Anthony
I will answer that long and inspired rendition with just two words "SPOT ON". Jesus the flesh was created. Christ/Word/Spirit/ Son of God whatever came forth from the Father, He was begotten. Born not created. "SPOT ON".
--- End quote ---
LOL :D I knew it was getting long too when I was writing it and believe me, i wanted to keep going, but those dang kids, bless their hearts.
I agree their is a huge gap. For all those who dont see a difference, think about why in all of Gods inspired Word that all the verses say He(Word) was BORN of God and it never states he was created.
I also agree with Roy about this thread. We are seeking the Truth and we are doing it among like minded believers. Isn't this better than discussing this with some other believers. If you are seeing conflict in this thread (which i dont) imagine the conflict outside of us. Imagine having this conversation with a catholic!! (think about that one, get it) LOL :D
Me personally, when i post something I am hoping that in some way i may be wrong that someone could show me to the Truth. But that is why we should all back up everything we say with as many scriptures as possible.
In closing like Roy said we all mean well here and if someone doesnt Kat and Mods kicks him out
In Love,
Anthony
oh Marques im the same way the simplier the better. I try to make everything simple because Gods i need his Word simplified to me also
--- End quote ---
Hi! Anthony
Thank you my, brother, you indeed have been blessed with eyes to see and ears to hear. If only we realize that it is the integrity of God the Father's only begotten Son Jesus Christ's' Deity that is at stake in this discussion it would open their eyes. John 1 clearly starts with the heading in bold print, "The Deity Of Jesus Christ" and follows with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." (Jn.1:1-3). How anyone can carefully read these words and misinterpret the meaning of this very clear Scripture is beyond my humble intellect.
Marques says, 5 pages of discussion on two simple words and still getting nowhere, little does he know that I have failed to keep my promise to pray for those on this forum due to this issue. Each time I start to pray my mind seems to get blocked off and this issue raises its head, as though God is refusing to listen to me. Why? I ask myself. Why? It never used to be this way, so something is definitely wrong. Marques has got the issue confused, trinitarianism is a belief in God The Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, three individual Gods in One God the word God becomes a family name for three independent identities of equal character traits. Whereas here we have just the ONE GOD the Father, Sovereign with a Son in His Image enclosed in His bosom. Still ONE Sovereign God, the Father. (Jn.1:18). "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him." How much plainer can this be?
All I know is that the Spirit is decidedly saying something to me and I have a very good idea what that is and will have to act accordingly. I see a strong delusion at work "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2Thess.2:11-12).One cannot serve two masters. God and man. So I fear that I have a very lonely walk along that narrow road, on my own, ahead of me yet again.
I love everyone on this forum, including our much respected teacher, with a godly love, but I cannot forsake my First Love yet again. I have done it once and I will do it no more, whatever the outcome. I am a firm believer in the virtue of loyalty, but even loyalty has its priorities and mine start with God.
Thank you brother Anthony and brother Brian. Many are called but only a few are chosen.
God bless you brothers and sisters in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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