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[OBrenda]

Bradford,

Not having an detailed understanding of what issues, you have with your wife, there may be some instances when God may want or direct you to leave your wife. (If she was abusing the children)  But your Brothers & Sisters here at BT respect the institution of marriage by God, and we are not to take sides and wedge ourselves in your marriage.

I appreciate the emotional hell you must be living in right now.  And I can see that your struggling with this decision, even though you find scriptures you believe, justify you to leave her.  You want to do what is right in the sight of God.  And I respect that in you.

- Matthew 10:37-38 - He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me..........

My I share my walk through living this scripture?

A few years ago I lied to my husband about our credit card debt.  He was out of work at the time and feeling very badly about himself.  I was in an auto accident and had a brain injury that greatly impaired my judgement.  I was taking care of the finances and they became out of control, I had to lie again and again to keep my secret.  The fear that I lived with each day, brought me to not wanting to go home, not being able to stay in the same room for fear he would find out.  I could feel resentment growing in my heart torward him, as I associated the stress and fear I felt for my sin with him.

I was afraid to loose him.  I was ashamed.  I was sinning and God wanted me to stop.  So I had people here praying for me, and God spoke through some loved ones.  I finally came to the point where I was willing to give up my Husband should he leave me, rather than living one more day in sin against God.  That is what I believe the scripture above means.

Be willing to lose those around you, if the cost to keep them is Sin.  We can't even control ourselves, to think we can control a wife is prideful.  My Husband held me in his arms as I cried in shame.  He is not a believer but he expressed Gods grace to me when I was obedient.  Like Abraham and Issac I had to place my marriage on an alter to God willing to sacrifice it, to recognize God relationship to me was above all.

Remember these are lesson's in scripture in the natural to show us something in the Spiritual.  Did you notice the end of this,  Issac was saved and another sacrifice was presented in his place....

Have you gone to a quiet place to build an alter to God, are you willing to sacrifice your family to God, that spiritually means to let go of the illusion that you are in control of your family.  Let go of the idol in your heart, that it is by your goodness, your will, your intellect that is to lead this family.

Speaking as a woman, we will only submit to our husband to the extent that we see the character of God operating in him.  If you truly Love and Cherish your Wife and demonstrate it, with putting the family first, before your needs, in its season there is nothing that they wouldn't do for you.  Wives, Husbands, and Children are not jewelry we wear around our necks so others can see how wonderful we are.  And discared when they require some painful effort.  They are here to teach us how to love like God loves......"while they were still in their Sins"

That is where God is leading you as a Man.  In my leadership training that I received when I was in the Navy, the first thing they teach you is, you may be leading men to their deaths.  Men will only willingly follow a leader into battle and possible death if they believe their leader is willing to also loose his life for them.  Sound familiar?

I will pray for your family,

As I was typing this I saw your response,...
If we are to be imatators of Christ then how does this man walk in these scripture?

Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do ...
Colossians 3:11
In him there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, or free person. Instead, the Messiah is all and in all.  Therefore, as God's chosen ones, holy and loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience.  Be tolerant of one another and forgive each other if anyone has a complaint against another. Just as the Lord has forgiven you, you also should forgive.

Above all, clothe yourselves with love, which ties everything together in unity.
 

Your Sister in Christ in Unity in Love,
Brenda

[NJKen]

Amen and thank you for everyone's responses!!! I have been separated from my wife and 7 year old daughter and living in my brother's dental office for the past 5 months because of my temper (flesh) not because of my wife's unbelief or not acknowledging me as the head of the family. Only God can open her eyes to the truth.  I need to be an example to my family of the faith and trust I put in my "head", so in turn, they will put their faith and trust in their "head".  As I once heard "A King never has to yell". So true!!!  The more I let go of my family and turn them over to God, the more God shows me that I can trust him and put my faith in him. This fiery trial is first and foremost because all else is moot unless the order of the family is established.  Whatever "issues" may be in our families, once the proper order of the family gets established, all else falls into place.  This is the one "central"  issue governing all other issues.  My relationship with my family is in direct corelation to my relationship with God.  If I have a lousy relationship with my family (which I do) I have a lousy relationship with God.  Praise God for opening my eyes to the truth of my wickedness and foolishness!!!!!  2 Timothy 2:20-26; 1 Corinthians 3; Romans 11:30,31; Galations 1:24; 1 Peter 4:12-19.  There have been many times over the course of the past 10 years that I have had the Egyptian army behind me and the Red Sea in front of me.  I would stomp my foot, yell and complain.  That is not the way for a "head" to show faith and trust to his "head".  God has shown me his grace and mercy many times and it has been a slow and tedious process.  But, as we know, we are not "saved" as Babylon once taught us, we are "being" saved by the grace of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 
                                     Ken
                                 
P.S. By the way, if anyone needs any Listerine (I have all the flavors) please let me know!!!!!!  Ha! Ha!!           

[NJKen]

Bradford,
            Psalms 46!!!!!!  Victory, Victory, Victory!!!!!!!!!!!  You do not have to "try" and be the "head". You are the "head".  Submit to your "head" and your family will submit to their "head".  Not easy, but, God will bring you there.  Great responses from everyone!!!!!!   
 
    Ken-- How about dental floss, does anyone need some dental floss.  Ha! Ha! 

                           

[Kat]

Hi Bradford,

You are getting counsel from a minister of the church    You should weight very carefully the reasons behind leaving your wife and children, as something that seems right it your own eyes.  That sin could be worse than your reason for leaving.

1Tim 5:8  But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Mat 19:8  He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
v. 9  And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication (porneia - sexual immorality, immorality), and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

This Scripture does give those married to someone who comments sexual immoralities or is in an abusive situation a way out.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Bradigans]

Bradford,

Not having an detailed understanding of what issues, you have with your wife, there may be some instances when God may want or direct you to leave your wife. (If she was abusing the children)  But your Brothers & Sisters here at BT respect the institution of marriage by God, and we are not to take sides and wedge ourselves in your marriage.

I appreciate the emotional hell you must be living in right now.  And I can see that your struggling with this decision, even though you find scriptures you believe, justify you to leave her.  You want to do what is right in the sight of God.  And I respect that in you.

- Matthew 10:37-38 - He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me..........

My I share my walk through living this scripture?

A few years ago I lied to my husband about our credit card debt.  He was out of work at the time and feeling very badly about himself.  I was in an auto accident and had a brain injury that greatly impaired my judgement.  I was taking care of the finances and they became out of control, I had to lie again and again to keep my secret.  The fear that I lived with each day, brought me to not wanting to go home, not being able to stay in the same room for fear he would find out.  I could feel resentment growing in my heart torward him, as I associated the stress and fear I felt for my sin with him.

I was afraid to loose him.  I was ashamed.  I was sinning and God wanted me to stop.  So I had people here praying for me, and God spoke through some loved ones.  I finally came to the point where I was willing to give up my Husband should he leave me, rather than living one more day in sin against God.  That is what I believe the scripture above means.

Be willing to lose those around you, if the cost to keep them is Sin.  We can't even control ourselves, to think we can control a wife is prideful.  My Husband held me in his arms as I cried in shame.  He is not a believer but he expressed Gods grace to me when I was obedient.  Like Abraham and Issac I had to place my marriage on an alter to God willing to sacrifice it, to recognize God relationship to me was above all.

Remember these are lesson's in scripture in the natural to show us something in the Spiritual.  Did you notice the end of this,  Issac was saved and another sacrifice was presented in his place....

Have you gone to a quiet place to build an alter to God, are you willing to sacrifice your family to God, that spiritually means to let go of the illusion that you are in control of your family.  Let go of the idol in your heart, that it is by your goodness, your will, your intellect that is to lead this family.

Speaking as a woman, we will only submit to our husband to the extent that we see the character of God operating in him.  If you truly Love and Cherish your Wife and demonstrate it, with putting the family first, before your needs, in its season there is nothing that they wouldn't do for you.  Wives, Husbands, and Children are not jewelry we wear around our necks so others can see how wonderful we are.  And discared when they require some painful effort.  They are here to teach us how to love like God loves......"while they were still in their Sins"

That is where God is leading you as a Man.  In my leadership training that I received when I was in the Navy, the first thing they teach you is, you may be leading men to their deaths.  Men will only willingly follow a leader into battle and possible death if they believe their leader is willing to also loose his life for them.  Sound familiar?

I will pray for your family,

As I was typing this I saw your response,...
If we are to be imatators of Christ then how does this man walk in these scripture?

Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do ...
Colossians 3:11
In him there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, or free person. Instead, the Messiah is all and in all.  Therefore, as God's chosen ones, holy and loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience.  Be tolerant of one another and forgive each other if anyone has a complaint against another. Just as the Lord has forgiven you, you also should forgive.

Above all, clothe yourselves with love, which ties everything together in unity.
 

Your Sister in Christ in Unity in Love,
Brenda

Amen, and God bless you dear sister.

IN HIS LOVE,

Bradford

[Bradigans]

Amen and thank you for everyone's responses!!! I have been separated from my wife and 7 year old daughter and living in my brother's dental office for the past 5 months because of my temper (flesh) not because of my wife's unbelief or not acknowledging me as the head of the family. Only God can open her eyes to the truth.  I need to be an example to my family of the faith and trust I put in my "head", so in turn, they will put their faith and trust in their "head".  As I once heard "A King never has to yell". So true!!!  The more I let go of my family and turn them over to God, the more God shows me that I can trust him and put my faith in him. This fiery trial is first and foremost because all else is moot unless the order of the family is established.  Whatever "issues" may be in our families, once the proper order of the family gets established, all else falls into place.  This is the one "central"  issue governing all other issues.  My relationship with my family is in direct corelation to my relationship with God.  If I have a lousy relationship with my family (which I do) I have a lousy relationship with God.  Praise God for opening my eyes to the truth of my wickedness and foolishness!!!!!  2 Timothy 2:20-26; 1 Corinthians 3; Romans 11:30,31; Galations 1:24; 1 Peter 4:12-19.  There have been many times over the course of the past 10 years that I have had the Egyptian army behind me and the Red Sea in front of me.  I would stomp my foot, yell and complain.  That is not the way for a "head" to show faith and trust to his "head".  God has shown me his grace and mercy many times and it has been a slow and tedious process.  But, as we know, we are not "saved" as Babylon once taught us, we are "being" saved by the grace of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 
                                     Ken
                                 
P.S. By the way, if anyone needs any Listerine (I have all the flavors) please let me know!!!!!!  Ha! Ha!!           

Amen!!!

[Bradigans]

Hi Bradford,

You are getting counsel from a minister of the church    You should weight very carefully the reasons behind leaving your wife and children, as something that seems right it your own eyes.  That sin could be worse than your reason for leaving.

1Tim 5:8  But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Mat 19:8  He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
v. 9  And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication (porneia - sexual immorality, immorality), and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

This Scripture does give those married to someone who comments sexual immoralities or is in an abusive situation a way out.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Thank you and God bless...

IN HIS LOVE

[joyful1]

Bradford
Did I miss something? Is your wife "pleased to dwell with you," despite your difficulties? In that case, I believe we are not to "seek to be loosed" from our spouses.
Just trying to add to the understanding already here--
I've probably missed something--sorry if I have.
Joyce

[Bradigans]

Bradford
Did I miss something? Is your wife "pleased to dwell with you," despite your difficulties? In that case, I believe we are not to "seek to be loosed" from our spouses.
Just trying to add to the understanding already here--
I've probably missed something--sorry if I have.
Joyce

Thanks....

[tebza4jesus]

Hi Bradford,

I read your open letter to Pastor Tony Smith, and I thought I too will tell what I know, for I am full of words, and the spirit within me compels me! I maybe young of years and very much unmarried, but does that disqualify me for saying anything? I guess no, for it is the spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding. Let me share with you my understanding!

The All-knowing God, has not only known your future wife before you or she were born, but the Almighty has brought you two together, having declared all concerning your life from the beginning. And He has always known that this moment where you are contemplating leaving your wife will come. This is no mistake in God's for He is infallible.

Couple His infallibility with His unchanging LOVE for all sinners (including you and I), and you will realise He will never sit down to plan to TORMENT you just for the sake of STRESSING you. Understanding that, will help you to have confidence in ALL His plans for you, including the choice of WIFE for you!

Many times, when we are troubled (which actually means, things don't go OUR way), we tend to make the mistake of taking decisions based on what we "PREFER" other that anything else. "I LIKE/PREFER a woman who is submissive to me. I think marriage life will be better if I had such a woman." I want a woman who believes the same as I do."

These are just simple examples of how we go about making our decisions, and as you can see they are always prefaced by that beast of the heart, I.

It's always about what I and never really about what does the POTTER want.

Could it be that this "thorn in the flesh" is there to a pruning tool unto me? Could it be "a vessel of dishonour" that the LORD has created to use in disciplining, moulding or testing me?

This aspect of the TRUTH we are not accustomed to think of that easily and often for the inclination of men's hearts is purely evil all the time, but it's the TRUTH there, for everyone who has love for TRUTH to accept.

I DO NOT DOUBT IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER THAT THE WOMAN YOU ARE MARRIED TO IS GOD'S CHOICE FOR YOU AND I ADVISE YOU TO STAY WITH HER.

There is a story in the O.T. concerning David, Nabal and Abigail, which I would like you to go through! It's a lovely story, simple and short!

David had been helping Nabal by looking over his flocks - offering protection. When David needed help as far as food is concerned, Nabal wouldn't help. David was furious and threatened to avenge HIMSELF.

I am bringing this story up just to show you that even a man after God's own doesn't LIKE it when things doen't go HIS WAY, such that HE will decide to take matters in HIS OWN HANDS. (I will kill Nabal).

But God has a plan, with Abigail coming and bringing wise unto David, he relented and chose to allow God to avenge him (May God's will be done)!

It was not long before Nabal was dead and listen to David's words when he heard that in 1 Samuel 25:39 (NIV)

"When David heard that Nabal was dead, he said, "Praise be to the LORD, who has upheld my cause against Nabal for treating me with contempt. He has kept his servant from doing wrong and has brought Nabal's wrongdoing down on his own head." Then David sent word to Abigail, asking her to become his wife." (Emphasis mine)

Hear me clearly, I am not saying you are David, or that your wife is Nabal! All I am saying is that WHEN THINGS DON'T GO ACCORDING TO THE WAY WE WOULD LIKE THEM TO GO, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE THINK THAT WE ARE RIGHT AND OTHERS ARE WRONG, (LIKE "SHE'S NOT SUBMISSIVE AS A WIFE SHOULD"), WE SHOULD SIMPLY LET GOD TO DEAL WITH THE "CULPRITS", UPHOLDING YOUR CAUSE. LEY THE LORD KEEP YOU FROM DOING WRONG AND MAY HE BRING NABAL'S WRONGDOING UPON HIS HEAD."

I hope I am clear! That's my advise to you. Endure the conditions you don't like ((like an "unsubmissive" wife) and let God fight for you!   
 

 

[Bradigans]

Hi Bradford,

I read your open letter to Pastor Tony Smith, and I thought I too will tell what I know, for I am full of words, and the spirit within me compels me! I maybe young of years and very much unmarried, but does that disqualify me for saying anything? I guess no, for it is the spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding. Let me share with you my understanding!

The All-knowing God, has not only known your future wife before you or she were born, but the Almighty has brought you two together, having declared all concerning your life from the beginning. And He has always known that this moment where you are contemplating leaving your wife will come. This is no mistake in God's for He is infallible.

Couple His infallibility with His unchanging LOVE for all sinners (including you and I), and you will realise He will never sit down to plan to TORMENT you just for the sake of STRESSING you. Understanding that, will help you to have confidence in ALL His plans for you, including the choice of WIFE for you!

Many times, when we are troubled (which actually means, things don't go OUR way), we tend to make the mistake of taking decisions based on what we "PREFER" other that anything else. "I LIKE/PREFER a woman who is submissive to me. I think marriage life will be better if I had such a woman." I want a woman who believes the same as I do."

These are just simple examples of how we go about making our decisions, and as you can see they are always prefaced by that beast of the heart, I.

It's always about what I and never really about what does the POTTER want.

Could it be that this "thorn in the flesh" is there to a pruning tool unto me? Could it be "a vessel of dishonour" that the LORD has created to use in disciplining, moulding or testing me?

This aspect of the TRUTH we are not accustomed to think of that easily and often for the inclination of men's hearts is purely evil all the time, but it's the TRUTH there, for everyone who has love for TRUTH to accept.

I DO NOT DOUBT IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER THAT THE WOMAN YOU ARE MARRIED TO IS GOD'S CHOICE FOR YOU AND I ADVISE YOU TO STAY WITH HER.

There is a story in the O.T. concerning David, Nabal and Abigail, which I would like you to go through! It's a lovely story, simple and short!

David had been helping Nabal by looking over his flocks - offering protection. When David needed help as far as food is concerned, Nabal wouldn't help. David was furious and threatened to avenge HIMSELF.

I am bringing this story up just to show you that even a man after God's own doesn't LIKE it when things doen't go HIS WAY, such that HE will decide to take matters in HIS OWN HANDS. (I will kill Nabal).

But God has a plan, with Abigail coming and bringing wise unto David, he relented and chose to allow God to avenge him (May God's will be done)!

It was not long before Nabal was dead and listen to David's words when he heard that in 1 Samuel 25:39 (NIV)

"When David heard that Nabal was dead, he said, "Praise be to the LORD, who has upheld my cause against Nabal for treating me with contempt. He has kept his servant from doing wrong and has brought Nabal's wrongdoing down on his own head." Then David sent word to Abigail, asking her to become his wife." (Emphasis mine)

Hear me clearly, I am not saying you are David, or that your wife is Nabal! All I am saying is that WHEN THINGS DON'T GO ACCORDING TO THE WAY WE WOULD LIKE THEM TO GO, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE THINK THAT WE ARE RIGHT AND OTHERS ARE WRONG, (LIKE "SHE'S NOT SUBMISSIVE AS A WIFE SHOULD"), WE SHOULD SIMPLY LET GOD TO DEAL WITH THE "CULPRITS", UPHOLDING YOUR CAUSE. LEY THE LORD KEEP YOU FROM DOING WRONG AND MAY HE BRING NABAL'S WRONGDOING UPON HIS HEAD."

I hope I am clear! That's my advise to you. Endure the conditions you don't like ((like an "unsubmissive" wife) and let God fight for you!   
 

 

Amen to some of the things you spoke on. I'll list the things that I'm not quite in cahoot's with you on. No offense intended.

You say,

The All-knowing God, has not only known your future wife before you or she were born, but the Almighty has brought you two together, having declared all concerning your life from the beginning. And He has always known that this moment where you are contemplating leaving your wife will come. This is no mistake in God's for He is infallible.

I don't believe what you're saying has a real scriptural basis. I'm not certain that God brought us together, and whether or not HE will keep us together is up to HIM. Succinctly, i would like to say, "our lust brought us together with no regard to what God thought." We didn't pray on it, because those so many years ago we were set on having sex with one another. Then she got pregnant, and then there's that bond. Then she got pregnant again, and again, and it's been usually at a time when I've mustered up my courage to leave. But, I love these kids so muuuch!!! I believe the love i have for her also is the same i have for these kids. It's a deep, deep concern; a sacrificial, I'm willing to make, concern. I've died many times for her in killing my own feeling in what i really wanted to do. Whether or not God will bless this union, I'm not certain. I'm open to whatever HIS holy will may be. Like I say, we started off in lust fulfilling fleshly desires. Remember, God SPIRIT thrives in and through love.

 - 1 John 4:16 says - And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

We both admit that we didn't love each other at the time. We were relating through the spirit of lust to satisfy fleshly urges and itches. We both could care less what God thought at that time.

 - Galatians 6:7-8 - Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption (the mess we're in today); but he that soweth to the Spirit (God is love - 1 John 4:16) shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

However God leads, we're both set on following; whether it's apart or staying together. It'll have to be by HIS SPIRIT.

You say,

Couple His infallibility with His unchanging LOVE for all sinners (including you and I), and you will realise He will never sit down to plan to TORMENT you just for the sake of STRESSING you. Understanding that, will help you to have confidence in ALL His plans for you, including the choice of WIFE for you!

[/color]

Well, I'm not a sinner. How can I be? There are no charges to or against a bona fide believer.

 - Romans 8:33 - Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.   

If I was to subscribe or go along with you on something like that, I would be despising the precious blood of Jesus Christ.

 - Hebrews 10:28-29 - He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You would have me to testify to the lie (John 8:44) of the blood of Christ not being enough or inadequate to save to the uttermost. There's no amen there from me. I'm not cosigning with you on that one.

You also state,

Many times, when we are troubled (which actually means, things don't go OUR way), we tend to make the mistake of taking decisions based on what we "PREFER" other that anything else. "I LIKE/PREFER a woman who is submissive to me. I[/b] think marriage life will be better if I had such a woman." I want a woman who believes the same as I do."

[/color]

I don't believe a woman (a wife) can be submissive to a man (her husband) until he's willing to be submissive to her and to love her.

 - Ephesians 5:25 says - Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

I may be the problem in our relationship.  Look at what Jesus had to say.

 - Matthew 20:25-28 - Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

I believe the love of a man opens up the love of a woman. A man has to be willing to die for the woman he loves like Christ died for HIS CHURCH BRIDE. That's what opens her up to serve and to be submissive. Are you willing to submit yourself because submission starts at the head. Look at what Christ did for his bride. Remember also that Jesus washed the disciples feet. You can't serve HIM if HE hasn't served you first.

Well, i think that's enough for now. I really can't agree with much to nothing that you said. But, i do that you for your response. I know you meant well.

God bless and in HIS ETERNAL LOVE AND GRACE,

Bradford

[KristaD]

If you don't agree that God is all knowing and planned your life and everything that you would do before you were born and that you ARE in fact a sinner as we ALL are then you need to go back and read Ray's papers. Tebza4Jesus was right in your first two quotes and your dispute of them are a dispute of what we believe here, the TRUTH of God.

[Bradigans]

If you don't agree that God is all knowing and planned your life and everything that you would do before you were born and that you ARE in fact a sinner as we ALL are then you need to go back and read Ray's papers. Tebza4Jesus was right in your first two quotes and your dispute of them are a dispute of what we believe here, the TRUTH of God.

I said, and i quote,

Well, I'm not a sinner. How can I be? There are no charges to or against a bona fide believer.

They've all been wiped away with the precious blood of Jesus Christ the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 - Hebrews 4:3 - For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 - Revelation 13:8 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I'm not certain about you, but for me that means my sins are forgiven from forever past through out forever future. God through Christ made an eternal sacrifice. Eternity emcompasses time and not time eternity.

 - Hebrews 10:12-14 - But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever(in eternity), sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Can i get an amen, alleluia from somebody over there. Lord JESUS!!! We magnify YOUR name; we magnify YOUR name! We magnify YOUR name!!! We lift YOU up; we lift YOU up! WE LIFT YOU UP!!! ALLELUIA! ALLELUIA!!! HALLELUJAH! HALLELUJAH. I LOVE YOU JESUS! I LOVE YOU JESUS!! I LOVE YOU JESUS!!! I AM YOURS AND YOU ARE MINE!!! TAKE ME!!! OH LORD JESUS!!! YOU'RE JUST TOO GOOD!!! You're worthy to be praised!!!

IN HIS ETERNAL LOVE AND GRACE,

Bradford

[Kat]

Bradford,

Well, I'm not a sinner. How can I be? There are no charges to or against a bona fide believer.

They've all been wiped away with the precious blood of Jesus Christ the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Not even Paul made that claim.

Php 3:11  that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
v. 12  Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me His own.

You need to consider all the Scriptures on this, as being made into His image is a process that does not end until we are resurrected into the kingdom.

1John 1:7 Yet if we should be walking in the light as He is in the light, we are having fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, is cleansing us from every sin."

"Is cleansing us" we're not yet clean as it is a process.

v. 8 If we should be saying that we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
v. 9 If we should be avowing our sins, He is faithful and just that He may be pardoning us our sins and should be cleansing us from all injustice." (CLV)

Here is an email on this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6922.0.html -----

Dear J:  You must rid yourself of all the Christian superstition that is still in your consciousness. You can't save yourself, except as God gives you the desire and the power. If sin still has "dominion" over you (See Rom. 6), then God has not yet been victorious in your spiritual life. It doesn't mean that he is finished with you, however.  I continued to sin for years after I KNEW what I was doing was sin. I just deceived myself into being thankful for greasy grace.

    One does not stop all his sinning just because he desires to stop.  I desired to stop, but I couldn't stop. When it was God's time in my life to really repent and stop sinning, then God brought that about. No matter how much power you believe there to be in human will, God will bring you to the place that you will have NO CONFIDENCE IN THE FLESH (Phil. 3:3).  God is going to make you hate your sins real bad before He will grant you victory over them. Be patient--pray and obey till God comes to your aid.
v
v
editorial note to my last reply to Jeremy's email on quitting sin --
I was not suggesting that we becomes totally "sinless" when we become spiritually converted. The key is in the word I used to reference Romans chapter 6 in which it is stated that sin shall not have "DOMINION" over our lives. Now there is a different between consciously living sin free, and committing sins even when we consciously determine not to sin.  It is not humanly possible to live totally sin free. Notice Paul's words:

Phi 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Phi 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Phi 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Phi 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Phi 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Phi 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

This letter was written years into Paul's ministry, and years after his bitter repentance, and YET, he states, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect..." If Paul could admit to that, where oh where do you think most of us come in?  Yet we should all come to the place in our lives where "sin shall NOT have dominion over you." Hope this makes my previous statements a littler clearer.

God be with you,

Ray

[Dennis Vogel]

Can i get an amen, alleluia from somebody over there. Lord JESUS!!! We magnify YOUR name; we magnify YOUR name! We magnify YOUR name!!! We lift YOU up; we lift YOU up! WE LIFT YOU UP!!! ALLELUIA! ALLELUIA!!! HALLELUJAH! HALLELUJAH. I LOVE YOU JESUS! I LOVE YOU JESUS!! I LOVE YOU JESUS!!! I AM YOURS AND YOU ARE MINE!!! TAKE ME!!! OH LORD JESUS!!! YOU'RE JUST TOO GOOD!!! You're worthy to be praised!!!

IN HIS ETERNAL LOVE AND GRACE,

Bradford, you are losing it! Seriously.

This is only my advise and obviously you don't have to take it. You need to get away from all forms of religion for awhile, as long as it takes to get your sanity back, even if it's years.

Because right now you are out of touch with reality.

Dennis

[tebza4jesus]

Dear Bradigans,

Receive my follow-up letter. Maybe we can call it "The Second Letter from Tebogo to Bradford" as in "Paul's Letter to..." LOL!

Seriously now, let's look at three things of which you mentioned that you are not in cahoots with me on.

You say,

I don't believe what you're saying has a real scriptural basis. I'm not certain that God brought us together,and whether or not HE will keep us together is up to HIM.Succinctly, i would like to say, "our lust brought us together with no regard to what God thought." We didn't pray on it, because those so many years ago we were set on having sex with one another. Then she got pregnant, and then there's that bond. Then she got pregnant again, and again, and it's been usually at a time when I've mustered up my courage to leave. But, I love these kids so muuuch!!! I believe the love i have for her also is the same i have for these kids. It's a deep, deep concern; a sacrificial, I'm willing to make, concern. I've died many times for her in killing my own feeling in what i really wanted to do. Whether or not God will bless this union, I'm not certain. I'm open to whatever HIS holy will may be. Like I say, we started off in lust fulfilling fleshly desires. Remember, God SPIRIT thrives in and through love.

However God leads, we're both set on following; whether it's apart or staying together. It'll have to be by HIS SPIRIT.

We both admit that we didn't love each other at the time. We were relating through the spirit of lust to satisfy fleshly urges and itches. We both could care less what God thought at that time.

Why are you doubting that God has brought you and your wife together? It appears to me, that the problem is in "how you came together". Am I right?
Why is that? Is it because the way you came together is not the way YOU consider RIGHT? NB God's ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are not ours.

Consider God's way of bringing Joseph to Egypt, or His way of bringing Christ unto the hands of His enemies? Do you have any doubt that these ways were God's ways even though both the brothers of Joseph and Judas did not do what they did for God? Like you and wife, they did not pray about it, or had any regard for what God thought. Their intentions were EVIL but they did God's will, nevertheless.

You and your wife may have been motivated by EVIL. Who hasn't? I know I have been and still do, but the LORD WILL save me, no doubt about that.

Consider the children-factor. Was it per chance that she got pregnant? Since indeed, everything happens for a reason, then your wife falling pregnant, happened for a reason. Have you thought about that reason or asked God, why? Those children and the love you have for them, are all God's gifts unto you for all good gifts (like love and children) all come from above, from our Father.

Those children are no mistake. Consider the timing of your wife's falling pregnant, for you yourself say, she fell pregnant at the time when you mustered up courage to leave her. I don't know, but it sounds to me as if, her falling pregnant served a good job of keeping you with her. Could it be God's way of doing things? 

You are right when you say, whether God will keep you together or not, is up to Him. Indeed, it's all up to Him. Why shouldn't it be, since He is the one who brought you together?

Let me ask you something. Why do you want to give unto God the responsibility of keeping you together or not, while you don't agree that He brought you together? Are you saying that God can keep you together while He did not bring you together? Listen to yourself, man. God started this, and He will end it. It's all up to Him for HE IS IN CHARGE?

David and Bathsheba did not come together in the "right" way, but their affair produced Solomon, whom the LORD called JEDIDIAH, that is, beloved by GOD. What do you make of that?

Know this. It's not so much how things begun but how they end, which matters the most before the LORD. Everything works together for good.

You started off on the wrong footing, but all's well that ends well, and with God, all will end well.

You say, you open to God's will and you seek to be led by His Spirit. Wise words, but may it be followed by actions. Stick with your wife until the LORD says otherwise.

The day, you come and say, God told you to levae your wife, I will be first man to step aside and allow you to leave your wife. But as long as you say "I am not certain..." I will continue to urge to stick with your wife.

Secondly, you say,

Well, I'm not a sinner. How can I be? There are no charges to or against a bona fide believer.

I don't think there's any need for me to say much concerning this, accept:
"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8

Lastly you say,

I don't believe a woman (a wife) can be submissive to a man (her husband) until he's willing to be submissive to her and to love her.I may be the problem in our relationship. 

I believe the love of a man opens up the love of a woman. A man has to be willing to die for the woman he loves like Christ died for HIS CHURCH BRIDE. That's what opens her up to serve and to be submissive. Are you willing to submit yourself because submission starts at the head. Look at what Christ did for his bride. Remember also that Jesus washed the disciples feet. You can't serve HIM if HE hasn't served you first.

I have absolutely no problem with this. This is the TRUTH. I am surprised that you actually misunderstood me to think contrary to this. All I was trying to show you is what we want (e.g A submissive wife) because in your first letter you mentioned your wife just not willing to submit to you (unless if I am the one who misunderstood you).

Yes, my brother, LOVE your wife and she will have no problem submitting to you. And yes, it starts with you - the head. You, indeed, may be problem in this marriage. If that be the case, take charge, and be to your wife, as Christ is to the church.

That's enough from me, Bradford. I hope I have clarified everything.

I repeat my self: DO NOT WALK AWAY FROM YOUR WIFE UNLESS THE LORD SAYS SO. Ps And beware false spirits!

With love,
tebza4jesus





 

[faith2faith]

Hi bradford!!!

I Quote you!
(Well, I'm not a sinner. How can I be? There are no charges to or against a bona fide believer )

I understand where you are coming from with that, because of what Jesus Did for all mankind at
the cross in the shedding of his blood, that brings us into right standing with him, justified, meaning not guilty
and in these bodies we are dead to sin but alive to God and unto christ Jesus, however if we do sin, we have
the Gift of repentence and can boldly come before God to obtain grace and mercy and we also have Jesus seated
at the right hand of God interceeding, mediating and avocating on our behalf.

Romans 8:1). there is now no condemnation for those who are in christ.

Romans 6:3). Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into christ Jesus
                   were baptized into his Death.

How can anyone go on claiming he is a sinner, or have you not died to the sinful nature?
If we have been baptized into his death and buried with him through baptism into his death
then is not the sinful nature crucified

Why are we taught on here to keep confessing we are sinners, if that is the case christ died
and has suffered for nothing, ( if anyone has ears to here then let him here what the spirit is saying).

Romans 6:5-8). if we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also  be united
                       with him in his resurrection. for we know that our old self was crucified with him so that
                       the Body of sin....(your body the tent you live in..carnal..flesh..) might be done away with
                       that we should no longer be slaves to sin.
                       because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with christ, we
                       believe that we will also live with him....made alive...spiritually..like now!!
 
isn't the result of sin "death".....and to claim that i am a sinner means, sin still reigns..lives in my body..nature..flesh.
if i then keep claiming i am a sinner then i still stand condeemed-Guilty.....so someone tell me what has the death of christ
benefit to us who are still confessing we are sinners and Guilty of the Book of the law.....are we not saved by grace....
pronounced not guilty....or am i getting a teaching that puts a yoke back on me!!!

Romans 6:14). For Sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but grace!

If anyone is led by the Holy Spirit to rebuke me on these matters then, Here am i, await my correction and discipline.
I will discern in the Spirit if it's done out of carnal anger... or the love of God...I won't be offened but only love you
for it...so if i am wrong....then show me my fault....but the leading of the Holy Spirit has to be witnessing to you to
Bring correction and rebuke!!!

grace,mercy,peace.
trish. 


                           

[Kat]

Hi Trish,

How can anyone go on claiming he is a sinner, or have you not died to the sinful nature?

It is my understanding that this is a process that we will spend the rest of our lives striving for, perfection.  Overcoming sin is part of the process that prepares us to serve with Him, if we should be in the first resurrection. We will only reach that perfect sinless state when we are actually born into His kingdom.
Here is an email on this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5854.0.html ------

You say we have to have sin out of our lives to be the chosen, does God make us perfect through Christ? can you show me through scripture that that is not just positionally but in behavior also.
 
COMMENT:  No Believer is "perfect" and totally free from sin while he is still in this flesh.  One needs to repent of their sins and be led by God's Holy Spirit into a life where one is no longer reigned over by sin.  It doesn't mean that we are perfect and sinless. Even the Apostle John near the end of his ministry plainly stated:

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

  It says in James that God's seed can't sin, can the new man/creature sin? isn't that part of us perfect? do we have God's seed? what is that seed?
 
COMMENT:  There are a lot of unscriptural phrases in that set of questions that are difficult to answer as asked.
Actually, the Scripture you are trying to reference is found in I John 3:9, not in James' epistle:

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This is speaking of being "born" of God. No one is "born" of God until resurrection. In this life we are only "begotten."  The words "born" and "begotten" come from the same Greek word. They didn't have two different words for the two different aspects of regeneration.  Here is a Scripture that shows we have only a spiritual "begettal" in this life:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Notice that we must wait "until" our full redemption is acquired. That happens in resurrection.  Jesus taught that when we are actually "born" of the spirit (rather than just begotten), we will be "like the wind."  None of us are "like the wind" in this life (John 3:6-8).

There are many Scriptures which speak of how we are to come out of sin, and stop sinning, even though we never achieve total perfection while we are in the flesh:

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savour.

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whore monger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Eph 5:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Eph 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

Eph 5:10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Eph 5:12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

Eph 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

Eph 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

This is way to big a subject to cover in an email, but I hope this has been helpful to you. Read all the material on our site. Especially read the first paper at the top of our Home Page:  "YOU FOOLS! YOU HYPOCRITES! YOU SNAKES!"  This is must reading if you are to understand our walk with God.

God be with you,

Ray

[James]

Quoting tamj;  "have you not died to the sinful nature?
If we have been baptized into his death and buried with him through baptism into his death
then is not the sinful nature crucified Huh    Why are we taught on here to keep confessing we are sinners, if that is the case christ died and has suffered for nothing" - end quote.


As a newer member on BT, I'd like to Q/observe.  Hopefully there's an emphasis and recognition of Jesus' calling and choosing being the process of the Holy Spirit convicting each individual (albeit "in their own order", some now, all later) of our need for repentance from sin and personally trusting in Jesus to save us.  The truths of "behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man hear my voice...", "whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved", "...become a new creature, all things BECOMING new (process of salvation begun)", bottom line being that when Jesus calls, IMO we each know it, because the Holy Spirit gets our attention and gives us the faith to believe...granted, the process of our perfection continues and won't be complete until we are raised incorruptible....but aren't those things compatible with each other?  Conviction/faith to believe (getting "saved"/justification), as well as the ongoing/future process of refinement unto perfection and immortality?  I hope I'm not out of line when I say "Jesus saves" . 

God's blessing, James.

[mharrell08]

Great comment James 


Marques