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What is required of a disciple?
Daniel:
We posted at the SAME TIME!!! :lol:
Thats okay, I'll catch up with you on another conversation. Lets make like bannana's and split. All water under the bridge
Daniel
Joey Porter:
There is a fine line between being eager to expose and cast out heresy, and becoming legalistic, reaching a point in which we deceive ourselves into thinking we've got all the answers to everything. I've crossed back and forth over that line time and again.
I think many folks, many of us, fall into the trap of thinking that because something is written in the New Testament, or because it's not "chiseled on tablets of stone," we think that it's impossible to follow it as a letter of the law. What I mean is - Christ showed us how following the 10 commandments down to the letter is of no profit. It is what is in the heart of a man that matters most. The same goes for any words in our bibles.
So, if we read Paul's command to reject a heretic after two admonitions as a command to automatically dissaciote with anyone who just doesn't quite see what we do, we are not going about it in the right way. I'm not talking about someone who is just obviously hardened and blinded by tradition and unwilling to look at plain truths, or someone who is deliberately trying to cause division and stir up trouble. That's a heretic.
I'm talking about people who are geuinely seeking the truth and yet can't quite see or accept some of the things that they are being shown. I believe there are some folks like that on this board (lightseeker) who are being treated harshly. Often times these folks present challenging scripture to the points being argued, and yet they are just dismissed or belittled. Much like what the Christian world does to folks like us. Let us not become as they are.
Perhaps those who believe they are following Paul's command to the letter might be well served to do a self-examination and see whether or not they understand the spirit of the command as opposed to the letter of it.
Don't think that we can't become modern day pharisees by becoming legalistic with those red words in the 4 gospels, either.
Words in stone or words on a page - it doesn't matter. The pharisees became legalistic with the words in stone and we can become legalistic with the words on the pages of our bibles.
I remember a small debate on these boards from a few weeks ago in which people insisted that if someone broke into their home and began brutalizing their family that they would not intervene in even the slightest way because God's will was being done and we are to turn the other cheek. Is that really what Christ meant when He said "turn the other cheek?"
Well, I believe that those who are being led by the spirit will understand that is not what was meant. Would anyone here, after getting knocked down with a broken jaw by being punched on the right side of the face, struggle back to his feet to turn the left cheek to be struck? Christ gave no exceptions to His command. If we wanted to follow His command to the letter, we would be sinning if we did not rise to our feet and turn the other cheek to be struck - no matter how difficult.
I am just giving an example of how we can become overly legalistic with NT teachings, something that I unfortunately see creeping up from time to time on these boards.
As for the topic of discussion - I think there is an interesting perspective that can be taken on John 21:18-19.
John 21
I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!"
I think the general consensus is that Christ was referring to the martyr's death that Peter would eventually experience - the physical death. But what about the daily dying to the flesh that Jesus' true disciples must experience? I believe that is the death to which Jesus was referring. What about the part in which He said "Someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go?"
Well, look at Galatians 3:
27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Only when we are clothed with Christ can we be led into places in which we do not want to go, that is, places that our flesh does not want to go.
Jesus said that to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God.
Did Peter's death as a martyr glorify God? I'm sure it did in some ways, but look at what Paul writes in Romans 1:
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship.
We glorify and worship God by dying daily when clothed with Christ, just as was the case with Peter. Notice also that Jesus said to Peter "when you are old." Dying to the flesh is a daily and lifelong process that doesn't happen overnight. I know sometimes it's discouraging battling the flesh, but we just have to have faith that:
he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. (Philippians 1:6)
worm:
Q: what is required of a disciple?
A: to take up our cross and follow Him :wink:
hillsbororiver:
While I agree that knowledge without love comes short of the goal it is one of the building blocks to reach perfection which is charity/love for all men especially our enemies.
When you build a house the ground must be graded, then the foundation put in place to support the walls, the walls must be strong enough to support the roof. If you skip any of these or are lax in any the house will collapse. Knowledge is a part of our growing process, but it is not the end all be all.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
2Co 8:7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
Joe
Craig:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver ---
When you build a house the ground must be graded, then the foundation put in place to support the walls, the walls must be strong enough to support the roof. If you skip any of these or are lax in any the house will collapse. Knowledge is a part of our growing process, but it is not the end all be all.
--- End quote ---
Joe your building example reminded me of a little story I wrote awhile back. It was posted on the forum before it crashed, here it is again. Hopefully it won't bore you to tears. :)
The Builder
Here is the story of building my house.
God laid out a pile of building materials and said, “Use all these pieces and build your house�.
I looked at the pile of material and saw that the pieces were labeled. There was Christ, Truth, Love, Joy, Peace, Long Suffering, Kindness, Goodness, Faith, Gentleness, and Self Control. Looking at my pile of material I thought to myself, there is a lot here but not near enough to build a whole house. I looked out over the horizon and saw many people building their houses, some were just beginning, others were half way through and others appeared to be done. Most of these houses looked rather large too, much larger than my pile of material would allow.
Well I didn’t have a clue on how to begin to build a house and asked God to show me.
He said “you can do it, believe and just begin�.
As I puttered about wondering where to begin I kept looking at the large houses in the distance and decided that was what I wanted my house to be like. So I set off down the road to visit one of the people who lived in these other houses, to ask for construction plans and where to get more material.
I had barely left my lot and saw a sign that said building plans this way. I turned right and found myself looking at a magnificent building called the House of Religion. I hurried inside and met a man who introduced himself as the Architect; he held a book that he said was the building plan to a magnificent home. I asked him how to start my home?
He replied, “You have a pile of material now but you need more, and you don’t know how to begin the assembly, is that right?�
“Yes� I said excitedly, finally I found someone to lead me step by step in this daunting task ahead.
He said, “First you need a foundation, out back is a large pile of material marked Church, take this and lay the foundation to your home�.
“How much will I need�, I replied.
“Well it all depends on how large of a house you wish to build and how much you can afford, the cost is at least ten percent of your earnings, and some people even give more for the best material�.
I made my payment and took some Church home. I began to lay the foundation and made more trips to the Architect as I wanted a larger than average house. The Church pieces were uneven and didn’t all match exactly but they worked, I reasoned that if I could have afforded the better material, it would have come out better.
Once the foundation was done I visited the Architect to learn of the next step. He told me that the next part was the cornerstone and that would be easy as I already had the material for this.
He said, “Get the material you have marked Christ and use it for the cornerstone. On the rest of the corners you are in luck also, you already have the material for two of the three. Use Truth for the second corner, use Faith for the third and for the last you’ll need to go out back and get Free Will, Oh, and leave your payment in the box on your way out�.
I begin laying up the corners. I put Christ in place, though the fit seemed tight, I put Truth in next and it felt a little loose, Faith went in fine and Free Will didn’t seem to fit at all. I visited the Architect and told him of the trouble I was having getting the corners installed and that Free Will just wouldn’t fit properly.
He said, “Don’t worry, put these corners on the best you can, as you continue the other parts will help hold them in place�.
I finished the corners and now needed to begin my walls. Where to begin? Another trip to the Architect for the answers.
Upon greeting me he said, “You will quickly run out of material for this part as it takes a lot of material to build a wall. You already have Joy, Peace, Long Suffering, Kindness and Goodness, but it won’t be near enough, out back you will find a large pile marked Hell, another marked Law, and last a pile marked Doctrine, take what you need and leave your payment in the box on your way out�.
I thanked the Architect and took a large amount from each pile.
I returned to my building task and placed Joy on my wall; next to it I used Hell, Law and Doctrine. This didn’t fit for some reason, Hell, Law and Doctrine was not the same size or color and none of them fit with Joy, Peace, Long Suffering, Kindness or Goodness.
I returned to the Architect for guidance and he told me “Don’t worry, fit them the best you can and when you are through I have something special that will straighten it right up.�
I looked at him skeptically and he added “I’ve been building houses up and down this valley for ages and it always works out in the end, don’t worry�
I left with some relief and returned to my work.
Though the pieces didn’t seem to fit properly I did the best I could. I discovered if I used a lot of Hell in one place and a lot of Law and Doctrine together in another and mixed in Joy, Peace, Long Suffering, Kindness, and Goodness, at least the walls remained standing though it did look terrible.
I returned to the Architect and told him that my walls were up but looked hideous.
He smiled and said “Out front where you came in, did you notice there was a well?�
I replied that I had.
He said “In the well is a substance called Good Works, it has a bright color and is thick to seal cracks and when it dries your walls will look splendid. Also, take all you need for free, as we like to spread Good Works all around�.
I returned to my building with twice as much Good Works as I probably needed and began to slather it on my walls. I stood back as it dried and was amazed, the Architect was right, the walls did look great! Excitedly I began to see a house take shape; I just needed to get the roof, door and windows done.
I visited the Architect again. I told him how wonderful the Good Works made my house look and I was ready for the roof, door and windows.
He replied, “That’s wonderful, now you will be able to use Gentleness and Self Control but you will also need two other things, Rapture and Ceremony. They are out back to your left and leave your payment on the way out.�
I eagerly returned to my building. I used Self Control along with Rapture on the rafters and Gentleness with Rapture on the roof. Like the rest of my house the pieces didn’t quite seem to fit properly and I was afraid the first rain would result in a leaking roof.
So another trip to the Architect for instruction, I told him of my dilemma and he said “that is a normal occurrence, go to the back room and pick up your last bit of material, called Blessed. You always use Blessed on the roof so yourself as well as others will know how blessed you truly are�.
I picked up Blessed, left my payment and went out the door, (I also got some more Good Works).
I put Blessed on the roof and added some Good Works. The roof looked great and would surely not leak now. I felt rushed and excited, only one more piece, the door and windows. I used Ceremony for these, it went in with a lot of effort and some prying, I put a little Good Works on it and it too looked great, I was proud of my house.
I went to the Architect and thanked him for his wonderful guidance and I told him that I still had Love left over and wondered where to put it.
He said “take it inside and use it for light and warmth, in my experience though, it doesn’t give off much light or warmth but it is refreshing to admire from time to time�.
I said “Thanks again�, then ran up the street telling my neighbors to look at my wonderful house. They all agreed it was a grand home.
When I returned home I entered and felt like I had been punched in the stomach, the inside was a mess. The floor was crooked and uneven; the corners leaned in and out. Hell, Law and Doctrine jutted from the walls. Large cracks were visible and Good Works was dripping down all over the walls and ceiling. Rapture was loose in places and Ceremony, though it looked good on the outside, was rotted and mildewed on the inside. The house was dark, even though it was light outside very little of it got past Ceremony. I put Love in the middle of the room, but the Architect was right, very little light or heat radiated from it. It seemed as if Hell, Law, and Doctrine absorbed it all.
I went back to the Architect, when he saw me he said, “I went by your house yesterday and it looked great, one of the best around�.
I thanked him and timidly asked if I had maybe missed something?
He told me, “No, you have everything there is and you probably have more Good Works than most. You should be proud.�
I thanked him and went back home but felt as empty and dreary as the house was inside.
I lived like this for several years, people always commented how nice my house was and how blessed I must feel. I never invited them inside though, I was too ashamed. Then one day a storm blew in and Rapture fell down all around me, I propped a ladder against the wall to put Rapture back in place and pieces of Hell and Law fell out of the wall.
In my distress I cried “God why is this happening, I used what you gave me and it is all falling apart.� God remained silent………………
Over the next few years my house was in constant need of repair and work, I felt no pride in my home, I stayed away as much as possible, and I became angry and resentful.
Finally in my darkest time, I cried out to God again “Lord I am miserable and unhappy with my surroundings, surely this is not the house you had in mind for me or anyone else to live in, please, please show me what you want for me.� Then, God answered……..
When I retuned home again I found I had no home, there was nothing left standing. Church, Free Will, Hell, Law, Doctrine, Rapture, Ceremony, Blessed and Good Works were gone. In a pile lay, Christ, Truth, Love, Joy, Peace, Long Suffering, Kindness, Goodness, Faith, Gentleness, and Self Control. I looked……stunned….
God spoke, “Use all these pieces and build your house, you can do it, believe and just begin.�
I looked down searching for my foundation, I picked up Christ, it was strong and even and fit perfectly as a foundation.
Next I looked for a cornerstone, Faith fit perfectly. I turned to pick the pieces for the other three corners and miraculously three more pieces of Faith were in the pile. I used them and they also fit perfectly.
The walls were next. I used Joy, Peace, Long Suffering, Kindness and Goodness. No matter how I arranged them in place they fit perfectly and when I used one from the pile another appeared in its place until the walls were complete and without blemish.
Next came the roof, I used Self Control for the rafters, and like the other pieces, when I used one another took its place. For the roof I used Gentleness and though it didn’t look like I had much, it seemed to never run out.
I used Truth for the door and windows. It also fit perfectly and gave a welcoming feel to my home.
When I had finished I stood back and saw a truly wonderful home. I did not feel proud however but wonderfully blessed. I entered and found the inside was even more wonderful than the outside and it was completely full with all I would ever need. When I placed Love in the center of the home its light and warmth radiated.
It was funny, Truth didn’t let the light of the world in but it let Loves light and warmth radiate outside.
I fell to my knees praising God and Christ and for the first time in my life felt complete. God looked down on me and said, “You are my Son and I am well pleased. Welcome home My Child.�
Blessings!
Craig
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