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Author Topic: What is required of a disciple?  (Read 22212 times)

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Daniel

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2006, 06:57:21 PM »

Quote from: SteveB
Quote
Don't yous think theres much we all must learn? Who can possibility be an expert or authority on it, or make that claim?


Learning is a process that never stops, line apon line etc.
Being an 'expert' is something to strive for but speaking with authority ABOUT WHAT YOU KNOW is required. Christ is our authority and as he IS, so are we. :D

Quote
I know for me personally I don't have the details filled in. I have many things to learn and unlearn, don't we all?


I certainly dont have ALL  the details and have many things to learn and unlearn. But we can speak and preach the things given for the FEW to know. And speak BOLDLY, at that.

Quote
Can't these exist and we still be of one mind?


If we cant speak with authority how can we even know what being of 'one mind' is?


I don't know why you question things as you do, its what Ray said,  I had admiration for his words. I spent the day in the e-mail forums. I was kind of quoting him from the e-mail forum because it seemed to fit here.

Ray stated

"There is much that we must all yet learn. I am an expert and authority on nothing. I make no claims to fame or accomplishment.There is much that we must all yet learn. I am an expert and authority on nothing. I make no claims to fame or accomplishment."
 
"The details are yet to be filled in. I have yet many things to write about as well as many new things to learn and a few old things yet to unlearn."


Sometimes things are probrobly better off being given through the only people one might only have the ability to hear.

Goodness if Ray himself is working out the details etc, why is it not okay for us as well?

I found the place of that scripture you quoted :D

Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: they would not hear, But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.[/u]

A littlle grace and patience with the young ones, were not talking about GRIEVOUS (SEVERE) WOLVES those who SPARE NO ONE :shock:  Just young ones growing in the sincere milk of the word.

Daniel
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Daniel

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2006, 07:11:00 PM »

Quote from: Gill
Quote from: Daniel


I know for me personally I don't have the details filled in. I have many things to learn and unlearn, don't we all?

Can't these exist and we still be of one mind?

Daniel


I hope so, Daniel.  Otherwise all of us are on our own.

SteveB wrote:
Quote
Almost isnt good enough in Chirsts mind. Thats what being of one mind is all about. Could Ray or Mike be wrong in something they write? Yes, they could. Could I. Yes. As you've said before Peter was wrong and Paul confronted him about it.


You really think this way, Steve?  So, Mike or Ray could be wrong in something but you'll 'go along with it', saying that you believe it too, just so that you can be of 'one mind'?  Is this really what being of 'one mind' means?  Sounds and feels more like a cult-like experience to me, and I'm sure that neither Mike or Ray would have anyone just 'go along' with what they teach?  Maybe i've misunderstood what you're saying.



Ofcourse we can all be wrong, I know I can. Ray inspired that comment from me. As I was reading I thought of what Ray might say because I think Steve might be able to hear Ray better. What Ray said perfectlly fit here. I thought I'd submit it for his consideration.

Then when I had to answer for it :shock:  I thought, maybe he could take it up with Ray who he admits to being %100 in agreement with . If he realizes that Ray said it, it should be okay now.

Just thought it was a good word. I just don't wannt to not discuss the things Ray teaches and get anyone mad at me, then again I don't want to quote him and have the same scenario. sometimes you can't win :lol:

Daniel
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Joey Porter

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2006, 07:25:07 PM »

I believe "being of one mind" would have more to do with having a sincere desire for the truth as opposed to looking at every miniscule nook and cranny of doctrine exactly the same way.  I believe it is possible for two people to "be of one mind" while still seeing things differently - as long as both people are sincerely looking for truth with a willingness to forsake error.  

I believe that God will give us the discernment to learn who among us is really seeking the truth and who may be just trying to cause heresies and stir up trouble.  I also believe that we should strive not to be so hard on someone who may see things differently and yet is still honestly trying to learn.
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SteveB

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2006, 07:59:49 PM »

Quote
You really think this way, Steve? So, Mike or Ray could be wrong in something but you'll 'go along with it', saying that you believe it too, just so that you can be of 'one mind'? Is this really what being of 'one mind' means? Sounds and feels more like a cult-like experience to me, and I'm sure that neither Mike or Ray would have anyone just 'go along' with what they teach? Maybe i've misunderstood what you're saying.


YOu did misunderstand:)

I wasnt saying go along if they are wrong, i was saying they are capable of being wrong. Being of 'one mind' means speaking with one voice, with one Lord and one God.

Quote
"There is much that we must all yet learn. I am an expert and authority on nothing. I make no claims to fame or accomplishment.There is much that we must all yet learn. I am an expert and authority on nothing. I make no claims to fame or accomplishment."

"The details are yet to be filled in. I have yet many things to write about as well as many new things to learn and a few old things yet to unlearn."


What Ray was saying was that he HIMSELF wasnt an authority or expert. NOT that he couldnt teach WITH authority. How can someone without authority teach? He knows its Christ IN him that does the works and thats what he MENT by that statement.

Quote
Goodness if Ray himself is working out the details etc, why is it not okay for us as well?


'working OUT details' is fine. Its what happens when there worked out. I never said i knew it all or that it wasnt ok to ask questions. But once you've asked and your ANSWER is contrary to the Word of God there is a problem.

Quote
A littlle grace and patience with the young ones, were not talking about GRIEVOUS (SEVERE) WOLVES those who SPARE NO ONE  Just young ones growing in the sincere milk of the word.


Amen :D

 
Quote
I believe "being of one mind" would have more to do with having a sincere desire for the truth as opposed to looking at every miniscule nook and cranny of doctrine exactly the same way. I believe it is possible for two people to "be of one mind" while still seeing things differently - as long as both people are sincerely looking for truth with a willingness to forsake error.  


I'm sorry i just cant agree based on the scriptures...

 Amo 3:3  Can two walk together, except,  they be agreed?

Deu 6:4  Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

1Co 12:13 For, even to one Spirit, we all, into one body, have been immersed,-whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free,-and, all, of one Spirit, have been caused to drink.


Peace...Steve
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Gill

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2006, 08:08:52 PM »

I agree, Joey.  The day i stop asking questions is the day i need to worry.  It takes humility to admit that we don't understand something.  We all want to be 'in the know' on all of God's mysteries at once, thank you very much ...signed, sealed ...there we go ...no more need to search for that buried treasure, i have it all right here!  And i will burn anyone at the stake who thinks differently! (sorry  :P ).
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chrissiela

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2006, 10:18:16 PM »

Quote from: SteveB
Quote
You really think this way, Steve? So, Mike or Ray could be wrong in something but you'll 'go along with it', saying that you believe it too, just so that you can be of 'one mind'? Is this really what being of 'one mind' means? Sounds and feels more like a cult-like experience to me, and I'm sure that neither Mike or Ray would have anyone just 'go along' with what they teach? Maybe i've misunderstood what you're saying.


YOu did misunderstand:)

I wasnt saying go along if they are wrong, i was saying they are capable of being wrong. Being of 'one mind' means speaking with one voice, with one Lord and one God.

Quote
"There is much that we must all yet learn. I am an expert and authority on nothing. I make no claims to fame or accomplishment.There is much that we must all yet learn. I am an expert and authority on nothing. I make no claims to fame or accomplishment."

"The details are yet to be filled in. I have yet many things to write about as well as many new things to learn and a few old things yet to unlearn."


What Ray was saying was that he HIMSELF wasnt an authority or expert. NOT that he couldnt teach WITH authority. How can someone without authority teach? He knows its Christ IN him that does the works and thats what he MENT by that statement.

Quote
Goodness if Ray himself is working out the details etc, why is it not okay for us as well?


'working OUT details' is fine. Its what happens when there worked out. I never said i knew it all or that it wasnt ok to ask questions. But once you've asked and your ANSWER is contrary to the Word of God there is a problem.

Quote
A littlle grace and patience with the young ones, were not talking about GRIEVOUS (SEVERE) WOLVES those who SPARE NO ONE  Just young ones growing in the sincere milk of the word.


Amen :D

 
Quote
I believe "being of one mind" would have more to do with having a sincere desire for the truth as opposed to looking at every miniscule nook and cranny of doctrine exactly the same way. I believe it is possible for two people to "be of one mind" while still seeing things differently - as long as both people are sincerely looking for truth with a willingness to forsake error.  


I'm sorry i just cant agree based on the scriptures...

 Amo 3:3  Can two walk together, except,  they be agreed?

Deu 6:4  Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

1Co 12:13 For, even to one Spirit, we all, into one body, have been immersed,-whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free,-and, all, of one Spirit, have been caused to drink.


Peace...Steve


It sounds to me like you are talking in circles.

You seem to say in one breath that you have to agree 100% or you are NOT of "one mind" but then turn around and say that you "are capable of being wrong".

You also said that Ray can teach with AUTHORITY without claiming to BE an authority or expert. I would agree, in that I can profess those things that I believe are true and quote the scriptures that I believe support those truths and be CONFIDENT and AUTHORITATIVE about what I say.... and still realize and accept that there is a POSSIBILTY that I could be under "strong dellusion" (wrong) about something. But that doesn't seem to be the same things that you are saying?

What you seem to be  saying is that Ray has the Holy Spirit and ANYONE AND EVERYONE who does not "agree 100%" with Ray does not.... inferring , of course, that that means that YOU also have the Holy Spirit and anyone who does not agree 100% WITH YOU does not have the Holy Spirit (using the fact that YOU "agree 100%" with Ray as "proof" that YOU have the Holy Spirit).


Quote
But once you've asked and your ANSWER is contrary to the Word of God there is a problem.


What if YOU'RE the one who's wrong and YOU'RE the one who is 'rejecting' the truth? What if the answer YOU are giving is "contrary" to the word of God? You just don't know it?

You say that we have to agree 100% to be of "one mind"... yet you say that asking questions and "working out the details" are fine..... so what does that mean exactly? That so long as we are all WRONG about the SAME things at the SAME time it's OK?? Because we are of "one mind", dispite the fact that we are all "in error"??

I'm sorry but this whole idea of having to "agree 100%" or we aren't a part of the body of Christ or of "one mind" is just non-sense.  :shock:

Dennis has mentioned a few times before that it took him 2 years to accept that he did not have "free-will". He never once mentioned Ray disfellowshipping him over it.

Something isn't true because Ray said so or because Mike said so... but because GOD says so. I only have ONE Holy Spririt and I can assure that His name is not "Ray" or "Mike" (no offense to either one of them, but I am PRETTY SURE that neither one of them would want OR EXPECT anyone to go against what they feel the Holy Spirit is revealing to them personally to follow after Ray and/or Mike and if I am WRONG about that, then I am in the WRONG place anyway).

As inspired as I believe Ray and Mike are and as much as they have helped me and others, I am not about to lean on any man more than God. My faith and trust are in Christ and I need NO MAN to teach me anything (at the expense of not relying on the ONE who will guide me into ALL TRUTH... and tell me NO LIE).

So let every man be a liar... and me as well.... but the day that I put my trust in anyone other than the Lord and His Holy Spirit is the day that I have crossed over into the darkness.

And the day that I am expected to put all of my faith and trust in the teaching of Ray or Mike to fellowship here is the day that I leave this forum and NEVER return. So if that is on the horizon I sure would like to know..... but I doubt very much that you are speaking for Ray or Mike anymore that I think that YOU can tell me what "Ray meant" by his comment.

Blessings,
Chrissie
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Daniel

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2006, 10:23:27 PM »

Steve you wrote,

Quote
What Ray was saying was that he HIMSELF wasnt an authority or expert. NOT that he couldnt teach WITH authority. How can someone without authority teach? He knows its Christ IN him that does the works and thats what he MENT by that statement.



Daniel replies,

I'm not the one who had the original misunderstanding concerning what Ray wrote. I was inspired to post it and share it with you. I understood what Ray meant when he shared it. You are the one who quoted it and wrestled it out and try to break it down, dissect it and question it. Now that I had told you I shared something Ray said, you can now agree (as I thought you would) and tell me what he MEANT.

Did it mean something different to you when you didn't know Ray said it?
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SteveB

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2006, 10:54:07 PM »

Quote

Daniel replies,

I'm not the one who had the original misunderstanding concerning what Ray wrote. I was inspired to post it and share it with you. I understood what Ray meant when he shared it. You are the one who quoted it and wrestled it out and try to break it down, dissect it and question it. Now that I had told you I shared something Ray said, you can now agree (as I thought you would) and tell me what he MEANT.

Did it mean something different to you when you didn't know Ray said it?


This will be my last post on this thread. It hasnt bore the fruit i'd hoped.

Knowing the context of a statement and what is meant by the writer seems to me essentail knowledge in understanding a statement. Knowing wether the writer is speaking in ambiguous, nondefined terms can be misleading.

In fact i do agree 100% with what He said knowing the beliefs of the writer.
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chrissiela

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #48 on: May 20, 2006, 11:14:07 PM »

[bolds are mine]

Quote from: Daniel quoting Ray
"There is much that we must all yet learn. I am an expert and authority on nothing. I make no claims to fame or accomplishment.There is much that we must all yet learn. I am an expert and authority on nothing. I make no claims to fame or accomplishment."

"The details are yet to be filled in. I have yet many things to write about as well as many new things to learn and a few old things yet to unlearn."


Quote from: SteveB
What Ray was saying was that he HIMSELF wasnt an authority or expert. NOT that he couldnt teach WITH authority. How can someone without authority teach? He knows its Christ IN him that does the works and thats what he MENT by that statement.



Quote from: SteveB
In fact i do agree 100% with what He said knowing the beliefs of the writer.


Steven are you familiar with what Ray tells people all the time? He says “QUOTE ME; do not tell me what you THINK I said.�

If what YOU said Ray “meant� is true, then it sounds to me that what YOU are saying is that Ray “means� that CHRIST (who is the one doing the work and teaching with authority THROUGH Him, still has “new things to learn� and "a few old things yet to unlearn�)

I don’t think that's what Ray “meant� and it certainly is not what he SAID (quote above).

You are right, though… NO FRUIT here….. and I have nothing more to say about the requirement to “agree 100%� with Ray to be a part of the body of Christ.

Not to mention that I have a test to study for.  #-o

Good night,
Chrissie
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Daniel

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2006, 01:04:24 AM »

Joey writes

Quote
I believe "being of one mind" would have more to do with having a sincere desire for the truth as opposed to looking at every miniscule nook and cranny of doctrine exactly the same way.


I agree with this Joey,

2Titus 2:2 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.[/u]

Which is

1Titus 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:


This one just about KILLS the ego, took me a LONG while to accept the word for myself, but what a RELIEF when I finally did. Notice the "ALL" part, seems to me one can indeed have it ALL in regards to these and be nothing "without love".

1Cr 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and UNDERSTAND ALL MYSTERIES[/u], and ALL KNOWLEDGE[/u]; and though I have ALL FAITH[/u], so that I could remove mountains, and HAVE NOT CHARITY[/u], I AM NOTHING.[/u]

I used to get mad at that verse (being sincere here) because I took pride in my knowledge, it was my pride (it puffeth up as knowledge can do) it was measuring rod, my rule, my spear, my judgment, my stature. So much was "tied up" into knowledge.

1Cr 13:8 Charity never faileth[/u]: but whether there be prophecies, they shall FAIL; whether [there be] tongues, they shall CEASE; whether there be KNOWLEDGE, IT SHALL VANISH AWAY[/u]

Something WAY BETTER "coming" made me truly THINK on "that"

1Cr 13:9-10 For we know IN PART[/u], and we prophesy IN PART.But WHEN that which is perfect IS COME, THEN that which is IN PART shall be DONE AWAY.[/u]

Joey writes


 
Quote
I believe it is possible for two people to "be of one mind" while still seeing things differently - as long as both people are sincerely looking for truth with a willingness to forsake error.


Daniel writes,

I agree, if we CAN have "ALL knowledge and ALL understanding" (keeping in mind these being in part) and have NOT love and be nothing  :shock: how can we judge another on not agreeing with our own understanding? How can we say imperfect knowledge is something to judge another on when scripture shows ALL knowledge ALL faith and ALL understanding is NOTHING without love? We could spin our wheels and go nowhere having all that but not love.

Its possible, the scriptures speak of this very thing. I'd rather fellowship with a kind brothers and sisters who are seeking Him with their whole heart. You can sense in them a sincerity that would be plain as the day itself. In that would be plain to anyones conscience then a "know it all" with a bad attitude. I prefer salt on my eggs as well, but thats just my preference. I think we all have them don't we? :lol:

Daniel
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hillsbororiver

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2006, 12:15:20 PM »

Joey, Gill and all, some very good comments here, I was thinking about what was said about the seeking of His Truth as what makes us of one mind, the knowledge that we must continually search and verify, we don't actually get to the point of "being there" complete in knowledge and understanding.

I think that if all of us were literally searching a field for buried treasure we all would be doing it in a slightly different manner, some plowing right in turning over earth with a bulldozer and a backhoe, others would be going out with a sugar spoon carefully examining every inch of dirt in a sincere effort to find this treasure, and most others would be somewhere in between those two extremes.

That being said, we all would still be of the same mind, FIND THE TREASURE! Even though the methods and styles and effectiveness would differ in degrees.

Joe
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Laren

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2006, 12:16:18 PM »

Quote from: bobbys43

 "Bob I have brought you to this opening of My truths to your eyes and ears. I have blessed these men and am using them to proclaim My truths but I now want you to do My will and I will lead you in what I want to reveal to you! I want you to abide in my Son Jesus Christ and My Spirit will guide as I teach you. I have used Ray and Mike and others to  help you as you learn but always remeber that they or you can do nothing without Me! I am the the Way,the Truth and the LIfe. They and you must decrease and Christ must increase. I want you to read My word and I will give you understanding and it will Happen in My time table. My will is to use others to help all my called and chosen and I want you to keep your eyes on Me and to follow My Son."

 bobby(bob)


 :D  :D  :D   Amen!!!!

Hbr 1:1   God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

Hbr 1:2   in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Hbr 12:2   fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
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orion77

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2006, 12:24:48 PM »

Bobby, those are words well spoken.  I understand exactly and feel the same way.

Eternal life is to know Jesus.  A true disciple yearns to stay in His word.  To lose this life and give it back to the rightful owner is gaining life.  We are all like seeds.  A seed must die before being planted to grow and produce much fruit.

For me, the greatest thing I've learned from Rays site is just exactly who the beast is.  This alone has opened up His word tremendously.  There is no words that can properly thank him enough to teach this truth.  It has brought a much closer relationship to my Lord.  

All the honor goes to Him, I thank Ray for teaching, yet he is no different than I.  The Holy Spirit shows different things to different people, which makes a many membered body, giving all the honor and glory to Him.  For we all know we can do nothing without Him.

God bless,

Gary
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Daniel

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2006, 01:00:31 PM »

This thread is the best yet, you can't help but rejoice in the truth here! Back to Jesuus Christ who IS "THE Truth" :D

Bobby that was an excellent word! I agree we as well others are to decrease that HE might increase in us. Isn't that Gods will in each of our lives to be led by the Spirit and become the Sons of God. Your words resounded in the Spirit

As would be the case of another helping us, Jesus commended that John was a shining light and for a season they were willing to enjoy that light.


John 5:35He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.[/u]

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

He is the Author and finisher of our faith

1John 5:9 If we "receive" the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness IN HIMSELF: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1John 5:11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son

1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may KNOW HIM that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.[/u]


John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe

John 1:8 He was NOT THAT Light, but was sent to bear witness OF THAT Light.[/u]

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth "every man" that cometh into the world.

Back to the RECORD

John 1:19 And this is the record of John[/u], when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?

John 1:20 And he CONFESSED, and DENIED NOT; but confessed, I am not the Christ.[/u]

John 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of HIS disciples;[/b]

John 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

John 1:37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and THEY FOLLOWED JESUS.[/u]  

Its all about following Christ, not men even if John was sent by God himself.

John 3:26 they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to HIM.[/u]

You'd never hear this kind of response from ministers today who do not want the whole world to follow after Christ and "lose their place" or rule over others.

John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.[/u]

John 3:28 Ye yourselves bear ME witness, that I said, I am NOT the Christ, but that I am sent before him.[/u]

Sounds like Paul who wanted Christ to be formed in them, whose prayer was for their perfection.

John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of "the bridegroom's voice" this my joy therefore is fulfilled.[/u]

As Bobby just quoted

John 3:30 HE must INCREASE, but I must DECREASE.[/u]

2Cr 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to ONE HUSBAND, that I may "present you" as a chaste virgin TO CHRIST.[/u]



Daniel
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Gill

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2006, 01:31:05 PM »

Quote from: hillsbororiver


That being said, we all would still be of the same mind, FIND THE TREASURE! Even though the methods and styles and effectiveness would differ in degrees.

Joe


Hehe, i like that  :D .  

The hell doctrine blasphemes against God's character, the free-will idea puffs man up ...there are some doctrines that do a great deal of damage in one way or another.  But there are a many other truths that just seem to be seen differently by different people ~ each with their own scriptual take on it.  For me personally, i hope that God keeps me being real in only proffessing that which i really do understand and believe.  Even if that means i look a little dense or weak in someone else's eyes.  

If Paul knew in part and saw through a glass darkly ...you can bet i will (and even more so).  None of this means that i don't desire knowledge though!  As Joe said: "FIND THE TREASURE!"  :lol:

You know, if i thought the forum wouldn't break out in a rash, i wish we could discuss exactly what being a heretic really means.  (Maybe one of the mods could suggest Ray do a paper; i would be interested to see his take on it ~ don't think he has written one already?).  Surely there must be a proper definition.  There must be a line drawn somewhere.
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orion77

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #55 on: May 22, 2006, 01:01:02 AM »

You all are great, this is some great communication and speaks loudly.  The truth bears witness through the Spirit.  

I praise God that it is not all about who is right and who is wrong, from our point of view.  For we all have been wrong at one time or another.  I also thank the Father, that He had the wisdom to send His Son, to show the way.  From experience, we never would of found it, if not for Him.  There is nothing I can say or do to justify my existence.  It is all about Him and Him alone.  

Look at how lucky we are, to have One such as this to declare our Father to us.  Words simply cannot express the gratitude we have.  This is the foundation of our faith God gave us.  The world cannot understand, this is why they try to explain God in a carnal manner, and put human characteristics upon Him.  To put evil intentiions upon His plan, is something that makes us sick, for we have the witness of the Spirit.

Oh we can shout, we are right and they are wrong, but who is to say which is right except Him, for we can do nothing without Him, and no one does right, no not one.  So, what is the point of this vain life we live, except to be thankful, for the life He gave us.  Not only this physical life, but life aionian, which is to know Jesus.  Can it get any better than this?

To walk and judge another one of His creation is not His plan for us, but to press on forward and to get out of the snares of this world.  We have been chosen to come out of this world, to not partake of her sins, to be separate, unique, yet hated by this world.  The bible, history and the present all testify to these things.

His last enemy to conquer is death and this world is full of it, whether in deed, thought or idealogy.  Work on building love, patience, long suffering, forgiveness, meekness and righteousness.  This is the hidden manna, that the world cannot receive, but we can, because His Spirit is in us.

God bless,

Gary
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eutychus

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #56 on: May 22, 2006, 10:03:08 AM »

=D>  =D>  =D>  \:D/  \:D/  \:D/
thats all i can say.
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chrissiela

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #57 on: May 22, 2006, 10:03:12 AM »

Good words... just came across these verses when I was looking up something on the harvest and the labourers:


    2Co 6:3  
Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

2Co 6:4  But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much PATIENCE, in AFFLICTIONS, in NECESSITIES, in DISTRESSES,

2Co 6:5  In STRIPES, in IMPRISONMENTS, in TUMULTS, in LABOURS, in WATCHINGS, in FASTINGS;

2Co 6:6  By PURENESS, by KNOWLEDGE, by LONGSUFFERING, by KINDNESS, by THE HOLY GHOST, by LOVE UNFEIGNED,  

2Co 6:7  By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

2Co 6:8  By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;

2Co 6:9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;

2Co 6:10  As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, YET MAKING MANY RICH; as having nothing, AND YET POSSESSING ALL THINGS.[/list:u]
Chrissie
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Joey Porter

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What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2006, 11:39:35 PM »

Very nice posts going on.  I just want to reiterate that God will give us wisdom and discernment when dealing with people, so that we can know if a person is genuinely seeking the truth.  Jesus said that if we have the plank removed from our eye, we will see more clearly to dislodge what is in our brother's eye.  But here's the important thing to remember - we must never make the mistake of thinking that the plank has been permanently removed from our eye, never to return again.  

1 Corinthians 10
12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!


God will grant us the discernment to see who is truly seeking and who is just stubbornly clinging to "idols of the heart."  We don't need to doubt that because Jesus said it, and we know His words are true.  Sometimes it can be tricky and we probably won't see things right away, but the more we converse with someone, these things will come to the surface.

However, if we come to a place in which we think that our plank is permanently dislodged, we begin reaching that place in which we say "If you don't agree with me 100% on everything, you are a heretic and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ, and you must be disfellowshipped."  

It's easy to fall into that trap.  I myself, in eagerness to seek and uphold all truth, find myself getting sucked down that path every now and again.  But I believe God sets me straight and shows me that this can be a dead end raod, because what happens when an issue arises in which I am not sure about or haven't reached a definite conclusion on?  Where does that leave me?  I either consider myself a blind heretic, or accept the fact that no matter how eager we may be to know all Truth, it just doesn't happen right away.

If having and agreeing upon ALL the answers is the only way that we can be of "one mind," then we are either going to be a one-man fellowship, or we'll be heading toward forming one of those nasty little "C" words.
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chrissiela

  • Guest
What is required of a disciple?
« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2006, 12:26:11 AM »

Quote from: Gill
Quote from: hillsbororiver


That being said, we all would still be of the same mind, FIND THE TREASURE! Even though the methods and styles and effectiveness would differ in degrees.

Joe


Hehe, i like that  :D .  

The hell doctrine blasphemes against God's character, the free-will idea puffs man up ...there are some doctrines that do a great deal of damage in one way or another.  But there are a many other truths that just seem to be seen differently by different people ~ each with their own scriptual take on it.  For me personally, i hope that God keeps me being real in only proffessing that which i really do understand and believe.  Even if that means i look a little dense or weak in someone else's eyes.  

If Paul knew in part and saw through a glass darkly ...you can bet i will (and even more so).  None of this means that i don't desire knowledge though!  As Joe said: "FIND THE TREASURE!"  :lol:

You know, if i thought the forum wouldn't break out in a rash, i wish we could discuss exactly what being a heretic really means.  (Maybe one of the mods could suggest Ray do a paper; i would be interested to see his take on it ~ don't think he has written one already?).  Surely there must be a proper definition.  There must be a line drawn somewhere.


I've been thinking about this today and looking up the verse and the words... here is what I have so far:

This is the verse that sort of started some of these discussions...

    Tit 3:10-11   A man that is an
heretic after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.[/list:u]

So what is a HERETIC?

Well, look at the verses LEADING UP TO these verses and I think they tell us exactly what a “heretic� is:

[sorry this is long.... it's spread out over two chapters]  :oops:


    Tit 2:1  But
speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Tit 2:2  That the AGED MEN [CHILD vs MAN :?: ] be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

Tit 2:3  The AGED WOMAN likewise  :wink: , that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

Tit 2:4  That they may teach the YOUNG [remember CHILDHOOD and YOUTH are vanity] women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

Tit 2:5  To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Tit 2:6  YOUNG MEN likewise exhort to be sober minded.

Tit 2:7  In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Tit 2:8  Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the CONTRARY part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

Tit 2:9  Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;

Tit 2:10  Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

Tit 2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Tit 2:12  Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Tit 2:13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Tit 2:14  Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Tit 2:15  These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Tit 3:1  Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

Tit 3:2  To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

Tit 3:3  For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. [guilty of MURDERS]  :cry:  

Tit 3:4  But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Tit 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Tit 3:6  Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Tit 3:7  That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Tit 3:8  This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Tit 3:9  But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are UNPROFITABLE and VAIN.[/list:u]

And here it is:  :shock:

    Tit 3:10  A man that is an
heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Tit 3:11  Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.[/list:u]

From the verses here, in which it is used, it seems to me that a “hereticâ€? is one who commits all of those things listed here that we are to AVOID and REBUKE. It has to do with how we treat and speak to others, how we handle the doctrine of Christ… how we LIVE. Avoiding STRIFE and DIVISION and those things that are UNPROFITABLE and VAIN.   :?:

The WORD here for “heretic� is G141 which means “a schismatic�

    G141
    αἱρετικός
    aihretikos
    hahee-ret-ee-kos'
    From the same as G140;
a schismatic. (“heretic� is the Greek word itself.): - heretic [the Greek word itself].[/list:u]

So what a schismatic, if not one who causes “schismâ€??  :o


Quote from: Websters.com
Main Entry: schis•mat•ic  
Pronunciation: siz-'ma-tik, ski-
Function: noun
: one who creates or takes part in schism

Main Entry: schism  
Pronunciation: 'si-z&m, 'ski- also 'shi-; among clergy usually 'si-
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English scisme, from Middle French cisme, from Late Latin schismat-, schisma, from Greek, cleft, division, from schizein to split -- more at SHED
1 : DIVISION, SEPARATION; also : DISCORD, DISHARMONY
2 a : formal division in or separation from a church or religious body b : the offense of promoting schism


That is the ONLY time that this particular word is used in the NT, but others words that are derived from the same or similar words are used elsewhere:


G141 (aihretikos) is derived from G140, which means to “make a choice�, translated here as “chosen�:


    Mat 12:18  Behold my servant, whom I have
chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.[/list:u]

And G140 is derived from G138 which means “to take for oneself, that is, to prefer�

Found in these verses:

    Phi 1:22  But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall
choose I wot not.

2Th 2:13  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Heb 11:25  Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;[/list:u]

Now G139 which means “a choice� is derived from G138 (to take for oneself ; prefer) and is translated heresy and heresies a few times, as well as “sect�:

    Act 5:17  Then the high priest rose up, and all they that were with him, (which is the
sect of the Sadducees,) and were filled with indignation,

Act 15:5  But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 24:5  For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:

Act 24:14  But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Act 26:5  Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Act 28:22  But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.

1Co 11:19  For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2Pe 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.[/list:u]

Even denying the Lord...  :shock:  HOW might we do that??  :?:

    Tit 1:16  They profess that they know God;
but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.[/list:u]

Back to G138  :arrow:

    Gal 5:18-26  But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20  Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, HERESIES,

Gal 5:21  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 5:24  And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Gal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Gal 5:26  Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.[/list:u]

Where else might we find another witness concerning those from whom we should withraw?  :-k

    1Ti 6:1  Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour,
that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

1Ti 6:2  And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

1Ti 6:3  If any man teach OTHERWISE, AND CONSENT NOT TO WHOLESOME WORDS, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

1Ti 6:4  He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

1Ti 6:5  Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: FROM SUCH WITHDRAW THYSELF. [/list:u]

Blessings,
Chrissie
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