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Author Topic: What exactly is wrong with teaching?  (Read 10094 times)

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Kent

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What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« on: September 03, 2008, 09:50:12 PM »

I cannot figure this out. There seems to be a consensus here that teaching is verboten.
I am not writing about posting ones teachings here on this forum, I understand why that is not wanted. I am writing about correcting peoples errors when it comes to this damnable "eternal hell" doctrine. Since when does it take a "teacher" to correct these errors?
Since when does one have to be called to be a teacher, to explain a few things that really are simple to explain?

I sure am glad that someone on a forum questioned me about a few things, and explained a few other things, that led me to this place.

This entire planet is filled with people teaching errors as truth. How is it wrong to correct things by "teaching"? I am not talking about a formal teaching session, or doing what Ray does by explaining a lot more than this "hell" nonsense. I can't do that.

I am talking about regular civil conversations. If no one responds, so be it. The seed was planted, and if it grows then it grows because that is what God chose to do.

People seem to be too worried about how other people will respond, and instead of standing up, they shut up.  That is the definite impression I am getting, and I am being rather diplomatic here. Maybe it's just me. I've been kicked around since I was a kid, and a little persecution doesn't bother me. It's water off a ducks back.

So, does anyone have scripture handy that tells us not to contend for the faith (Jude 1:3) and just let God handle it alone? If not, then why don't people do it?
If there is, then this should be the definitive "no teaching at all" post to end all posts, and I and other should just keep our mouths shut about Our Little Secret.

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hillsbororiver

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2008, 10:06:43 PM »

Kent,

If someone wishes to engage you in conversation about your beliefs or opinions on doctrines there is no issue, if we go about wielding our newly sharpened sword (of His Word) seeking to slay the beliefs of others, imposing ourselves on them that is a different matter entirely.

To be honest and at the risk of sounding self absorbed I am really at the point now where my focus is inward, my beastly old man and the incredible resiliency he has, springing back to life sometimes before I even realize it. This is what I believe is the more important part of my walk presently, not looking outward to contend with others beliefs especially unsolicited. 

I enjoy friendly, casual conversations about God and His plan, but I have found that debating these things is for me a carnal exercise. I believe we all should be very careful in trying to push God's plan forward with our own understanding and will. Why worry about things He Himself has promised to take care of?

His Peace to you Brother,

Joe
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Kent

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2008, 10:29:59 PM »

Thank you Joe.

But that is not what I am writing about. I am not looking to show people how smart and wise  ::) I am. What I do is show people that do not call themselves Christians that there is no such thing as "eternal hell", because IMO that is a big stumbling block. I know that unless that person has their eyes and ears opened by God, nothing will sink in, and that goes for the "christian" and unbeliever too.
But who am I to decide if God has opened their eyes and ears? I don't know that. But I will also say that scripture is always given to me. I might have to look up book, chapter, and verse, but that is what happens.

In a nutshell, here is how things usually go:

Someone will start off with the "pray the sinners prayer, you worthless sinner, and be saved from burning forever in hell". The sinner will snort and say something sarcastic, usually. Then that is when I show that unbeliever what scripture actually says. Then there is usually some back-and-forth, My being called a "heretic" by the "christian" ... and being called much worse... When the unbeliever stops asking questions, I am out of the loop. The "christian" hardly, if ever, asks questions unless he / she is setting a trap.

But a part of it might be that God is being lied about. That does bother me.
A lot.

Peace, bro! ;D
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 10:35:45 PM by Kent »
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2008, 11:25:06 PM »

Hi Kent,

This forum is filled with old posts about the futility of trying to shine a light on the truth about hell.

I've said this before, it's a miracle they cannot get it (Christian or not). It is so obvious to us. But as Rays says "the blind cannot see."

But I'm with you. Anytime someone brings up hell, I cannot just sit there and not say anything. It is the most disgusting lie every told. However even the lie is part of the plan.

Dennis

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mharrell08

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2008, 11:34:07 PM »

Hello Kent,

I don't think we can sum up every and all instances to teaching or not teaching. Each situation requires spiritual discernment. I know that only God can bring my wife and other family members to the truth, but I still like to discuss the Word with them with the direct purpose to use the scriptures to poke holes through their Babylonian beliefs. At first, especially after just reading Ray's teachings, my heart was not entirely in the right place. But now, instead of trying to debate, I use the scriptures to show marvelous truths to hopefully make them feel better about their Father in heaven who they do not truly know.

I do understand how you feel about wanting to correct people's false beliefs with simple scriptures & explainations. I think we, the members here on the forum, speak a lot about 'not everyone is called to teach' because of our own experiences with attempting to bring the gospel to friends & family. I think almost everyone here has either started a thread or made a post based off these futile experiences. Usually, the point of saying 'not everyone is called to teach' is to make the member not feel so frustrated. This obviously is not the case with you so if you feel led to speak the gospel, go ahead. And as long as you are mindful of your heart's true desire (whether of God's will or your carnality) then have godly conversations.

Isaiah 52:7  How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings...

1 Cor. 1:21  ...God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.


Hope this helps,

Marques


P.S.  Great point Dennis...I feel the same way as you and Kent when someone lies on our Father in heaven. What child wouldn't be upset if someone lied about their Father? :-)


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EKnight

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2008, 11:40:27 PM »

Kent,

I am with you.  I, personally, am not equipped to try and debate anyone.  However, I don't see the problem if someone is comfortable enough in their knowledge and understanding.

I recently went on vacation with family members and one in particular brought up God and hell and I could not pretend I was of the same belief so I explained to her where I was at.  She wasn't argumentative but didn't agree with me either.  She asked me why I didn't take my questions to the Catholic church and I simply told her, they had 12 years of Catholic school and 45 years of my life at church on Sundays to teach me and I never learned anything like I have learned here.  In fact I couldn't even find a Catholic church that offered bible studies (good thing too otherwise I may have never ended up here).

So for now I struggle to be living proof of the Good News.

Eileen
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2008, 12:06:44 AM »

There's nothing wrong with teaching.  Paul said 'woe is me if I do not preach the gospel'.  

But there are scriptural warnings and admonitions that apply to those who want to be or are considered 'teachers'.  I certainly recognize that there are ones among us who are able and willing to do this.  Though I am not (yet) one of them, I honor that.  That doesn't stop me from warning and admonishing those who do.  

Too much of my life I have externalized the scripture and what truth God has shown me.  I was teaching a sunday school class when I was 21 years old, about half the age of the other teachers.  The first thing that came to my mind when reading scripture wasn't 'how do I apply this to my life' but 'how can I convince other people to apply this to their lives'.  That's so unbelievably wrong-headed and I've had that beaten out of me to the greatest extent...so much so, maybe, that I am TOO timid.

My spirit is with Joe right now.  I don't want the name of God to be blasphemed because I'm a hypocrite.  It's not an intellectual thing.  I know enough now to share some of it.  But I'm not actively looking for 'oppurtunity'.  Maybe one day I will...in the meantime I have plenty of scripture to back up where I am.  There is plenty as well to back up those God has prepared to actively go out.  We arebrothers, just not operating the same way.

I agree with you that reluctance to share based on fear of rejection is not a very Godly attitude.  Peter's defense of the Lord was also not Godly and Christ had to do a miracle to repair that soldier's ear cut off in Peter's zeal.  

It's a good measure of Spiritual maturity that people are willing to risk all to preach the Gospel, but it's also a measure of Spiritual maturity to know when to speak and when to keep silent, to not cast pearls before swine, and to recognize one's own lack of faith and fruits as a hindrance to the Gospel we believe.

I pray for those of you 'teaching', and it isn't that you'd shut up, believe me.   :D  

And if it makes you feel any better, I'll never let the Hell lie go unchallenged.  I'm just not ready to go out and find new 'forums' to challenge it.  I'll know I'm ready when God calls me to do it and makes it possible.

  

      
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

psalmsinger

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2008, 12:18:53 AM »

Maybe the following excerpt from the book "We are not Afraid"  the story of Coalwood WV, is relavent or maybe not, but it gave me much to consider about
2 Tim 1:7-9
7   For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
8   Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9   Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
(KJV)

I Jn 4:18
18   There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
(KJV)

"The key to being able to stand up for yourself is to first be certain of what you believe.  It's hard work, sorting out all your experiences and education and what you see and hear to figure out what you think about things.  Read, talk to people and really pay attention to what they say.  Don't be fooled by the easy answer.  Make sure you understand why you think the way you do.  If you work hard to have an opinion, you're much more likely to fight for it.  You will have the courage to tell others what you believe, and when you do that, you defeat fear."

Of course it is the Holy spirit that teaches us about the heavenlies and about how to cast out fear or "defeat fear" , but perhaps the process and the end result is the same.  If you are to "teach", the Lord will send the Word through your mouth.  I think that surprisingly, it will not be you at all, but the Christ Spirit in you.  He is the only Teacher.

Rest in the Lord,
Barbara
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Kat

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2008, 12:40:16 AM »


I think there is an obvious difference in seeking to witnessing or teach and defending the truth.  I do not look for an opportunity to jump in with my beliefs to my family and friends.  But then again if one presents itself, I would not ignore it and turn a deaf ear.  I would not hesitate to speak up if someone was saying something I strongly disagreed with.  I guess it all depends on how you look at a particular situation and should judge each by it own merits.

And yes Barbara I agree, it will not be you at all, but the Christ Spirit in you.  He is the only Teacher.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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OBrenda

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2008, 12:51:00 AM »

Great Post Kent!

And an Amen to everyone!
 ;D
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Linny

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2008, 02:15:48 AM »

Kent,
I think you have misunderstood the jest of the comments.
"People seem to be too worried about how other people will respond, and instead of standing up, they shut up."
My biggest problem all my life has been not knowing when to shut my mouth.  :P
At 46 years old, I am only just beginning to be better about it.

I am not worried about how people will respond. I just don't see the point in making enemies of my family and friends who I know aren't ready to hear the truth. God has made it SO clear to me when I was to speak and EVERY time I listened to Him, it has worked out so great.

I have to discern whether it is my flesh that is offended or whether it is He that is wanting me to speak. That takes time to learn how to discern so my advise to anyone new at these wonderful teachings is to lay low for a while and learn to listen to the Holy Spirit's urgings. The Scripture that several gave in other postings about waiting to be asked is the indicator that has worked every time for me.

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David

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2008, 02:18:25 AM »

Hi Kent.
I would hope and pray that I am not someone who is affraid to "teach" the truth when God presents the opportunity to do so. If someone comes to me either in person or through the internet, which does happen from time to time, preaching hell fire to me, I'll jump on that person and tell them in no uncertain terms that their doctrine and beliefs are from the pit of satan, the deapest most vile depravity there is in humanity, and the worst kind of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. I'll give them a few scriptures, some more if they continue to argue. If it falls on deaf ears, I'll tell that brother I have nothing more to say, and thats it. If someone asks me a question, I'll give them an answer for the hope in me with meakness and fear (humility). But, if I hear or see a preacher teaching hell etc to their congregation etc, and not directly to me then its not my place or calling to jump in and say something, in fact its resisting what God is doing, blinding people to the truth through false prophets.  
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WhoAmI

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2008, 02:44:26 AM »

I was taken by surprise when one day traveling with my Mom. She has a friend in her church (a baptist church) who lost a relative and they were grieving because they assumed the relative was in hell. My mom starts telling me this and then calmly asks me what do I think.  :o
 It was odd because I did not go on a long or complicated speech about the subject. I just plainly stated that all my studies and my understanding of God is that He is not sending people to a hell and he is a loving God who is going to save all his children in due time. But I can tell you I did not expect that question. She was all ears and I said my piece and left it at that.

Jeff
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Kent

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2008, 08:30:55 AM »

All I can say is "wow!"

There is a lot of wisdom in those posts.

All I can say is that I am not trying to get others, for obvious reasons, to disobey God  and "teach" anyway. If God says "shut up", then we (I) should just shut up. That exact thing has happened to me in the past, when things could have gotten really nasty with someone I knew. So I bit my tongue only because He said to "let it go, he's mine and I am dealing with him", and I am glad I did, because things worked out. My big mouth could have made things a lot worse because I was going to let him have both barrels.

I dont claim to be a teacher. I believe I was called to be "something else". I, and I believe others, should only teach what they know and not just jump in unprepared, because I made that mistake too.

It's not "debate", because there is no real debate. If it was only a matter of debating, then Ray could get into a debate with Hagee et. al. and we all know who would win that debate.
Then peoples minds would change. But we all know it wouldn't happen that way.


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Samson

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2008, 12:08:11 PM »

Some good and Interesting Responses,


                                                     After reading all of the responses; I'm inclined to say that BALANCE is the key in all of this, sometimes that's difficult to do. I guess it would depend on how far you proceed when explaining to people about some of these Truths, too much information all at once might be too overwhelming. Once again, if God isn't ready for individuals to see these truths and receive Spiritual sight, then they won't, no matter how thorough and respectfully your explanation happens to be.


                                                     Since joining this Site, I've experienced some opportunities to explain about Age-Lasting(Aionios); Chastisement(Kolasin); Lost or Destroyed(Apollemi); Fire being Spiritual with related Scriptures to prove this, Free Will being a Myth or Oxymoron and many of the basic information being taught here. This entailed full explanation to these individuals and they apparently, at least at this time didn't grasp it. I had one guy who said, I don't speak Greek, it didn't seem to matter to him that the Older versions of The King James Bible had many flaws and that the only way to set matters straight was to know what the original meanings of these words are. The guy I'm referring to knows many Scriptures and is good at quoting them. This experience took place many months ago and since then, I've cooled down my conversation with him on Bible topics and he's a good guy in general. He stubbornly clings to an out of date translation, he even quit a Denomination that he was a member of for ten years, because they switched from using the King James to the New International Version. Ray is thoroughly equipped at using the Older Versions of The King James Bible, I'm not, I never used it for study in my life, too many Thee's, Thou's, Shalt's and Suffer the little children for my tastes. I have the New King James, it's okay, it's revised to show many of the Spurious Scriptures. I had a recent discussion with him explaining about God creating Evil and that we are not a finished product, God creating Man in his image and not already a finished created product. He seemed to agree with some of this. He said he never read in the Bible that God created Evil and I told him to read Isaiah. 45:7, telling him that it would probably say Calamity, but the Hebrew word Ra is translated Evil and that their was another Hebrew word for Calamity.This was a month ago and he hasn't responded to me yet and I'm not going to bring it up. I planted the seed with this guy, God will do the rest.

                         I've had approximately conversations with approximately 8-10 people since joining the Forum and only one person, a Pastor who plays tennis where I play was excited, loved hearing what I had to say and couldn't get enough of it, he was supposed to leave to go somewhere and ended up staying in that Tennis parking lot for 45 minutes, because he loved what he was hearing. I didn't have the Bible with me, no literature, but only my memory of Ray's Talks and writings at my disposal. My point in this example is that if God's Spirit is leading and controlling a conversation about these Truths, it will proceed from your mouth with confidence and ease and you will feel relaxed inside with no back and forth debating involved. This man named Bruce(The Pastor) is a very calm and humble type of man, not your typical Pastor of Christendom.

                      Like Kat & Barbara mentioned, it will be Christ Spirit in you doing the teaching and my experience with Bruce(The tennis playing Pastor) is the only one like that. Just like those that join the Site, the called out, this is a rare experience, but if it's right, you will leave that Discussion with a calmness in your Heart and that's coming from a man with a Type A personality;  ;D

                         Kind Regards, Samson.

    P.S. Just on a funny note, I used Spell check and the computer wanted me to change Age-lasting to Everlasting, even the computer doesn't have the Truth; ;D ;D ;D
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carol v

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2008, 01:13:39 PM »

About 8 months after starting to read Ray, I went on the retreat called "The Walk to Emmaus" which is a pretty big deal in Texas, maybe other places. Former attendees sponsor "pilgrims" from all churches and all walks of life and it is a really amazing experience for them...BUT...when I went I had already been reading Ray.

I had a really great time participating in the weekend...BUT...lol...no one was really speaking to me by the end. I had 3 roommates -- a pretty normal-ish, 40-ish, new seeker, a 25-ish wild eyed Pentecostal crazy person who had never read a word of scripture and a young 20-ish troubled young woman.

On Friday night, the Pentecostal started telling the other two about her church's plans for Halloween where they were going to throw "Hell Night" for all the little kiddies so they wouldn't trick or treat. It was complete with scaring the "Hell" into all of them and the piece de resistance -- the "aborted" baby room where the blindfolded little kiddies get to "feel" the dead baby and then blindfolds off -- the baby comes back as an adult zombie saying "you killed me mommie." Gee, where's simple old Frankenstein these days.

She was also babbling about how she speaks in tongues all the time.

Well I remember the spook house as a kid and I think we just put our hands in wet noodles and maybe saw a discombobulated head come out of a box or something. This whole conversation was more than I could really take especially since this Pentecostal crazy person was "teaching" this crap to the two newbies.

I calmly sat there with my Bible -- which none of these 3 women had ever looked at -- and calmly pointed out scripture after scripture. God was with me because I didn't argue, didn't debate, just answered every attack with a scripture. By 1 am, the Pentecostal crazy woman was going around the place getting all the "experts" she knew to get out of bed and come argue with me. I still didn't argue. I was able to fluster them all by just calmly answering their attacks with scripture. And none of the "experts" had any idea of what scripture said.

Those roomates did not speak to me again the rest of the weekend. The spiritual director wouldn't speak to me either by the end of it. It was a very lonely feeling in a way but preparation for what would come.

So while all these folks on the walk had a big "spiritual" experience and gave their testimony as such on Sunday, my testimony was just that I had a great time. And I had had a very good time even though I felt very, very alone. I hadn't had a big "spiritual" moment at this Babylonian function but I learned so very very much. Nothing is so hated as a calm person talking about God's ability to save all straight from the scripture.

The next morning was "Dying Moments" where the pilgrims go lay their sins on the alter to "die" and it's supposed to be one of the most meaningful parts of the weekend. I was so tired from staying up so late that I fell asleep sitting up and had no idea what I was supposed to be doing when I went to the alter so I just prayed for my kids.

Funny thing, I know what several people on the walk laid up on that alter and none of them were able to keep it up past the "glow" of a few weeks. I've learned since then that when you lay it on the alter of the "other Jesus" -- well, that Jesus has no power.

BUT -- I have not always been so calm. I have debated way past the 2nd admonition. My vanity and ego have come into play where I felt I needed to win. Through God, I've gotten it right and I've gotten it wrong. God has shown me both and hopefully I have learned through both.

But I don't seek out those circumstances anymore. I would not go to forums to debate or show the light but if someone comes to me or a situation is in front of me, then I'll speak up. I just pray I'm ready with that answer.

I would add here that one of the most important things is to ONLY FEED MILK TO BABES. Tell the Gospel and DON'T get into the Babylonian, you need to quit your church thing. Leave out the "Come Out of Her My People" stuff. I so wish I could take back a conversation I had with one lady who actually asked me if I believed in hell after church one day -- when I was still attending but knew I wouldn't be much longer. I should have feed her milk but made the mistake of criticizing the church. I won't do that again.

Carol
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eggi

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2008, 05:01:55 PM »

Hi all,

Many good points here, I think we need a balanced approach to this question. Again, I think Joe is so right when he says that we need to look to ourselves. Just a thought: If we know the truth, we should be happy to share this with others! In fact I feel very sad sometimes when I think about people who believe in those terrible things. It has given me great comfort to learn what I have learned. Not that I am fully educated, I've just started. But that doesn't have to mean that I shouldn't share what I know. Often I find myself walking on the street thinking about how God loves all of the persons I see, and that He has a wonderful plan for them. Whenever I see someone who is looking sad, I feel that I should like to tell them about the true Gospel, so that they could have hope for the future. But I don't. I know that when God wants it done, they will ask me. And then it will be the best time, cuz He always gets it right. We must be patient - wait for God.

God bless you brothers and sisters,
Eirik
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Here’s how to tell if you have faith; how do you live… what do you do… what do you accomplish in life… what are your goals… What is there about you that proves that you have this faith and belief inside of you? What?

EKnight

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2008, 07:42:29 PM »

Since God is in control of whose ears will hear and whose eyes will see, is it possible that those who venture to express their knowledge in the truth are being led by God as to what to say?  In other words, if the person to whom one is speaking is one whom God wants to hear the truth, then the right words will come out of the mouth and when God wants someone to remain blinded, then the words will not come to the "teacher" as well?  And we never know what God's intentions for us are.  I say, sow seeds (tiny little seeds) and let God do the rest.

Eileen
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acomplishedartis

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2008, 08:11:09 PM »

I think Sometimes even when they don't ask, I have been in situations where someone start talking to me about their church believes for looong,
and sometimes they don't care you don't respond, and sometimes if you still quiet they start thinking that you agree with them.
I guess sometimes (like on this case) with a clear and honest intention after a while of listening it might be fine to let them just know shortly and with no argue where you stand,[at list regarding everyone save], at list for respect them. Anyway is too overwhelming for their heads and sometimes family members (that doesn't believe on the reconciliation of all) can't handle who's the enemy.
Does somebody think that I am wrong on this? because I am open for rectification. [I have said 'sometimes' many times, because i am agree that it always depend a lot in the type of situation, motivation and balance on doing it.]

I think it is true that when we can't handle or understand something it is way more easy for us to ignore it.

moises

ps. i am agree with you Eileen about sometimes try to sow tiny little seeds or little comments of truth on a fine conversation.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 08:16:42 PM by acomplishedart_is;not me »
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OBrenda

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Re: What exactly is wrong with teaching?
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2008, 09:45:58 PM »

Hi Moises,
I think that You and Eileen have good advice.  ;D  Tossing Tiny Little Seeds,
We don't have to appear to agree with them, to not argue with them.
Is that your art work?


What do you think about this?
Years ago my Dad asked me how do you teach someone something?
After many attempts to give answer, and him shaking his head No.
I gave up and asked him, "O.K." how do you teach someone something?

He answered...You can't teach anything thing to anybody.
They can only Learn from you,
and they will learn more by what they see you do, than what they hear you say!

Brenda
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